insurance - at what point is a boat too big?

BandB said:

I'll give you an analogy. Someone has driven cars all their life. What do you think about giving them the keys to a tractor trailer and saying go drive? I don't worry about the damage to the trailer the first time they try backing it into a tight space, but I worry about the first time they face a situation on the road they aren't prepared for and lives are at stake with their handling of it.

Click to expand...

However... Hundreds of thousand RV's [20' to 45' / 12K to 40K lbs. ] are on the road... driven by "car" drivers who never before drove anything bigger than a soccer mom type of vehicle. Be very careful when a Big Ass RV starts doing strange things in traffic!

In my experience...... the overwhelmed soccer moms, always late for things are even worse.

Just had one the other day, back out of a diagonal parking spot into the slow lane of town and immediately do a U-Turn from that lane, 20 feet in front of me in an RV. She then stopped sideways blocking the 2 fast lanes of each direction when she heard my horn and the screech of my brakes.

But I didn't hit her, so she mouthed "sorry" and sped away.

Unfortunately.... common type driving for many people....though that particular maneuver was a new, exciting one for me.

Boats aren't a lot of difference in terms of good/bad driving, boating is just usually a bit more complicated/less learned.

Our ownership sequence, with no problems getting insurance:
small boats 2 years

30' sloop 2 years
40' schooner 2 years
ran a boatyard, three years, handled many boats up to 45'
took a ten year break from cruising

57' sloop, 4 years, circumnavigated
79' power boat, Fintry 15 years



The rate for Fintry's insurance went down significantly when I got a 100 ton Master's license and my wife an OUPV.


I believe strongly that it is easier to handle a larger, heavier boat than a small one -- it is a more stable platform and doesn't get pushed around by the wind as much, so size is really relevant only in how much more damage you can do to others and how much it will cost if your boat is damaged.


Jim

Circumnavigator said:

I believe strongly that it is easier to handle a larger, heavier boat than a small one -- it is a more stable platform and doesn't get pushed around by the wind as much, so size is really relevant only in how much more damage you can do to others and how much it will cost if your boat is damaged.

Click to expand...

Everything happens slower with a big boat (they get heavier faster than they gain windage, etc.), which is both good and bad. Underway, bigger is a bit tougher, as it takes more planning ahead, especially in a crowded channel. When docking, it's great. It becomes much easier to use the boat's momentum and make small, precise inputs when the boat doesn't jump to every little command.

Again I get to use my favorite TF expression ...... IT DEPENDS..........

psneeld said:

In my experience...... the overwhelmed soccer moms, always late for things are even worse.

Click to expand...

Years ago when my kids were in elementary school in a rural area the community was in an uproar over speeding and dangerous driving near the school. An understandable concern. A public meeting was called with the school board, school superintendent and sheriff. The sheriff set up a one month observation of the area, speed traps and monitoring moving violations but only giving warnings. At the end a report was issued. The vast majority of the warnings issued were to parents dropping off and picking up their kids.

Churches are another one. When I lived in the city a block from a big church wrecks shortly before service started were common as those running late were trying to make up lost time.

Agree with Jim. But would qualify his statement. As you increase in displacement inertia increases. The need to plan ahead increases. Sight lines become more problematic. You need the skill to do maneuvers without dependence on thrusters to a greater extent. Often in fairways and other settings your buffer zone decreases so you need to be more accurate. Once you get pass a certain displacement mistakes can’t be overcome by simple manhandling by unskilled people either on the dock or boat. A 5 or 15 t boat no problem even 20t with a bit of thought. But but suspect for Fintry it’s another kettle of fish.

Still believe you can hire all the captains you want. Take all the courses you want. End of day nothing teaches like experience. Insurance risk has a lot more to do with things other than boat handling. Don’t know but would suspect many claims ( even with handling like when the thrusters fail) don’t have boat handling as the root cause.

Hippocampus said:

Still believe you can hire all the captains you want. Take all the courses you want. End of day nothing teaches like experience. Insurance risk has a lot more to do with things other than boat handling. Don’t know but would suspect many claims ( even with handling like when the thrusters fail) don’t have boat handling as the root cause.

Click to expand...

I would think the value of the captain is to provide supervision and assistance to allow the owner to gain experience without getting into trouble. Boat handling is important but only a part of the adjustments that are made in transitioning to a big heavy boat. It’s good for both the insurer and the owner to help the process along and minimize the risk along the way.

A good training captain will assist the new owner adjust in the "common sense" department for things other than simply boat handling, but in the end, the insurance company protocol for insuring new-to-bigger-boat owners cannot enforce common sense in all aspects. They are, after all, in the risk business.

Hippocampus said:

Agree with Jim. But would qualify his statement. As you increase in displacement inertia increases. The need to plan ahead increases. Sight lines become more problematic. You need the skill to do maneuvers without dependence on thrusters to a greater extent. Often in fairways and other settings your buffer zone decreases so you need to be more accurate. Once you get pass a certain displacement mistakes can’t be overcome by simple manhandling by unskilled people either on the dock or boat. A 5 or 15 t boat no problem even 20t with a bit of thought. But but suspect for Fintry it’s another kettle of fish.

Still believe you can hire all the captains you want. Take all the courses you want. End of day nothing teaches like experience. Insurance risk has a lot more to do with things other than boat handling. Don’t know but would suspect many claims ( even with handling like when the thrusters fail) don’t have boat handling as the root cause.

Click to expand...

Hippo - Your observations are usually right on. A refreshing interlude during some other posts... not all by any means... but some. "Campus" of your brain to which you signify must be well in condition and tended to. As you know, diet has a lot of influence on hippocampus' actions and reactions.

That said - I'd like to add another fold to your "End of day nothing teaches like experience." Which is relatively true! However... Some can practice [i.e. experience] things and look at them all they want, but, their brain's calculator portions still never really get the hang of it. Whereas; others can simply look at the circumstance at hand and "mind's eye" calculate what is necessary for accomplishment - then go into practice and within two tries [sometimes in one try] they nail it and the calculation portion of brain records it. In other words they will forever have that sequence of maneuver locked down by use of their hippocampus!

The reality of it all [which I do not fully understand] is that some brains automatically come out with [or develop into] ability to dissect mechanical / mathematical / distance-perception intricacies of circumstances at hand - others do not. And, the ones with ease of dissections surely seem to be able to remember [immediately recall] the answers to accomplish a situation their brain calculation process supplied to them. Again, recall memory... i.e. hippocampus!

Happy Vehicle-Handling Daze! - Art

Agreed and given that need insurance companies request it. But there’s an advantage to 2’itis. You learn learn all aspects as you advance in size. Will say personally have learned more from fellow cruisers and crew and have been mostly disappointed by those holding US captain tickets in the lower tonnage range even to the point of taking them off the watch rotation on a couple of occasions. Yes, there’s fine experienced seamen who are a major resource in that group. But among those doing it as second career occasionally not so much.
One occasion was after being woken up. Listen here’s the circle course. What I’m interested in VMG and comfort. We’re cruising not racing. 14 days or 15 who cares. After being woken a second time bashing through line squalls the first repeat with additional detailed instructions on how to deviate and return to course with further reassurance if we were 50 miles off the line so what. Make it up later. After the third time asked why he wouldn’t change course to avoid bumpies or at least improve comfort. Told he would go point A to B period. Boat could take it. Suck it up. Second was weather router told us to slow down and deviate to a holding lding ground just north of the Bahamas. Router said on our current course and VGM we would hit a 3 day system of 60kt. Other three watches followed these instructions. He didn’t. Once we hit our holding ground he again started to head for Newport. I had no interest with my wife aboard seeing 60k. Turned the boat around and took him off watch.

Oh so true Art. Brains work differently. Wife can back up a trailer with ease. Every time I do it I first need to put my hand on the bottom of the steering wheel. Stop and think. Hand goes left, back wheels goes right, trailer goes left. Then go slow and still screw up. Whereas she just gets it done. Can back up a boat or straight frame truck or large trailer just fine. But small trailers not so much.

Plenty of intuitive and gifted airplane drivers in the graveyard early. Turns out their other pilot skills were lacking.

I’m a great boat handler. Can jump on something of any reasonable size - maybe less than 80 feet or so, for me, and after a few minutes or maybe couple hours I can make it dance, my brain and hands just work that way, and I have hundreds and hundreds of slow speed maneuvering hours under my belt. It was the same with driving and flying for me. And I’m a handy and meticulous maintenance guy for someone who hasn’t had much formal ‘mechanic’ing’ training beyond junior high shop class. A catastrophic maintenance issue would be more likely to be despite me than because of me.

But my taking a MV Fintry or even a 40’ Nordhavn to Bermuda and back would probably take a few dozens of hours of mentoring first, followed by a lot of self learning, and judgement checks. I have been known to be overly aggressive in my weather and go/no-go decisions in past endeavors of various kinds [emoji6], I have more self awareness of my weakness in the judgement arena now. And if an engine went TU in a busy shipping channel or in a storm, could I diagnose and fix it in my first month of ownership? And what could I do about the situation in a 100 ton vessel vs a thirty foot cruiser or a 40 foot aluminum fast mover with which I’m more familiar?

All that said, weather related claims for vessels not even underway must dwarf all other claims by some order of magnitude, across many domestic regions. Even inland marinas are struck by tornados.

Righty Tightey - Lefty Loosey! Unless reverse threaded. A "thread" factor that is universal through the world!

One point missed by some, the point of using a training captain isn't to just observe the captain, but to operate the boat under the Captain's tutelage and observation. Our captains who trained us made us do all the work.

As to Hippocampus' comment regarding captains in the lower tonnages, they get there many different ways. Many have operated very small boats and others have operated no boats, simply been deck crew on many. Low tonnage indicates experience limited to small boats. Some with low tonnage have years of experience but just decided to go for licenses, but others are beginners.

Operating a boat is similar to riding bicycle... in that, as long as your hippocampus works well - you never forget.

At one point in my life I took 10 + + years off from boating [lived in the mountains then, but, had previously been brought up around and on boats from birth forward].

So, when I became close to ocean once again I was impelled to reestablish my addiction to boats; yup, I'm repeat user - LOL!

Things came flooding [pun intended] back in... just like yesterday for boat inspection, handling, maintenance, safety and other marine-life requirements/factors.

Bottom line, for most on TF - Boating Is In Your Blood!! Yea!!!!!

This is sort of funny... When I used to captain for a Mainship dealer the service they offered any new buyer was my services to take them out and go over the handling of the boat. (The yard supervisor handled the "shakedown", as well as go over the various systems). If the customer wanted more lessons, they could contract my services, which was normally taken care of by the dealer. The normal client was usually older (50+) and their last boat experience was usually around a 25 foot sport boat 20-25 years prior. The normal Mainship they were purchasing was either the 40 or 43 Trawler.

The funny thing here, now seeing the post regarding the 10+ foot rule from insurance is that I has no idea that I assisting these clients with their insurance! Live and learn.

garychurch said:

I went from a 27’ SeaRay I/O to a 64’ Grand Banks MY. The insurance company required me to have a qualified approved (by them) for a minimum of 100 hours and submit a letter from the Captain I was now qualified to handle the boat as an owner/operator.

Insurance runs from 1% to 2% of the boat’s value per year. Depending on coverage and assessed risk. For the Grand Banks that ran from $8,000 (US) to $11,000 (Caribbean) to $19,000 (US but within the hurricane belt).

Click to expand...

Same. Except I was going from a pontoon boat to a 60! Same roughly up to 100 hours on an approved captain with endorsement.

Being in the PNW my premium for a comprehensive policy was only 0.7% of agreed to hull value with 2% deductible. No hurricanes out west must be the difference.

Just got off the phone with my agent. Totally flipping my boating program. Other than small outboards and dinghies never owned a motor vessel. Have only cruised sail.
Told given my experience I would get the lowest rates available. No need for a captain. No vetting crew unless I wasn’t on the boat or extraordinary circumstances.
Turns out their thinking is virtually all the systems on a modern cruising sailboat are the same with the additional issue of the sails and rig. Yes, vendors and sizing maybe different but gensets, watermakers, engines, navigation, electrical are the same. Motor has the additional issue of stabilization. In terms of claims history the human mistakes are the same. Poor maintenance or installations, poor navigation or watch keeping etc. Sail and power are brothers . The antagonism you sometimes see is totally ridiculous to me. Apparently insurance sees skill set so much alike they are willing to apply sail experience to power.
Still, you don’t know what you don’t know. So I already have training for me and the bride arranged. Fortunately at no expense. You can kill yourself or another by ignorance. Unless you’ve achieved some level of competence think it’s unwise and immoral to operate any vessel.

Hippocampus said:

Just got off the phone with my agent. Totally flipping my boating program. Other than small outboards and dinghies never owned a motor vessel. Have only cruised sail.
Told given my experience I would get the lowest rates available. No need for a captain. No vetting crew unless I wasn’t on the boat or extraordinary circumstances.
Turns out their thinking is virtually all the systems on a modern cruising sailboat are the same with the additional issue of the sails and rig. Yes, vendors and sizing maybe different but gensets, watermakers, engines, navigation, electrical are the same. Motor has the additional issue of stabilization. In terms of claims history the human mistakes are the same. Poor maintenance or installations, poor navigation or watch keeping etc. Sail and power are brothers . The antagonism you sometimes see is totally ridiculous to me. Apparently insurance sees skill set so much alike they are willing to apply sail experience to power.
Still, you don’t know what you don’t know. So I already have training for me and the bride arranged. Fortunately at no expense. You can kill yourself or another by ignorance. Unless you’ve achieved some level of competence think it’s unwise and immoral to operate any vessel.

Click to expand...

Well you do have trawler speed experience.

If it passes survey next boat tops out at ~20kts. Been on large tris that go that fast but never owned one. Be a new experience.

I'm not surprised at them taking sail experience. I figure the required level of skill and knowledge to use a sailboat without getting hurt is higher than on most powerboats.

rslifkin said:

I'm not surprised at them taking sail experience. I figure the required level of skill and knowledge to use a sailboat without getting hurt is higher than on most powerboats.

Click to expand...

There was a thread here that spoke of how many of us were former sailboaters. I agree there is a correlation, add to that offshore experience, there is no doubt insurers will look like you are less a risk than a landlubber buying a boat.