Probably a boaters worst nightmare

Just found this story on YouTube. Boat fire. Would not want to be in their shoes.

ouch!

Yeah **** happens, I've had a few fires offshore on commercial boats, usually started by hydraulic leaks. Firefighting training is a good investment and kind of fun. This is what's left of a trawler I used to work on that burned this spring.

One of the concerns I’ve had is abandon ship protocols in the event of fire. Once watched a ~40’ motorboat go up in flames just under the Jamestown bridge. Literally in seconds you could see billows of black smoke engulf that boat. Occupants didn’t have a chance to deploy the raft nor any safety gear. We were farther up west passage but fortunately closer boats were able to pluck them out of the water. Would think the common sites for placement of a life raft would be unapproachable on most small trawlers given the toxic fumes and heat. Would think occasion may occur once fiberglass was burning that you would be unable to control it especially if it was undiscovered initially. Wonder about the tough decision when short handled-fight the fire v prepare to abandon ship. More than sinking fire is my first safety concern as once in open waters risks are huge. Feel so bad for this couple.

Early detection is the key to fires or really any other boat emergency.

You need to have smoke and fire detection in all locations, especially locations that could mask a fire because they are closed off.

This early detection buys you time to either fight the fire while it is small (or even before a smoldering fire develops active flames).

Fire alarms networked together to a loud bell is a common sense mitigation technique that can save lives.

We were going to buy a new Leopard 50 when they first came out 2019. After chartering one in Belize we quickly moved on and took the Leopard 50 off our list. There were problems with the boat from first delivery and on. It had electrical problems, water leaks, construction issues, it suffered from terrible design flaws, and the factory offered no support and passed every issue off to someone else.

Stay away from Leopard!!

Are smoke detectors available that are approved for engine rooms? Was the source electrical or other?

Fish53 said:

Yeah **** happens, I've had a few fires offshore on commercial boats, usually started by hydraulic leaks. Firefighting training is a good investment and kind of fun. This is what's left of a trawler I used to work on that burned this spring.View attachment 120401

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Wifey B: Fires scare the bejeezus out of me. I'm glad I've had the training but sure hope to never use it. As to the kind of fun part, I guess in a strange way perhaps as it was a challenge plus when I did advanced, I was the only female in the class. Also, hope to be wise enough to follow the Kenny Rogers instructions to know when to hold em and know when to fold em, know when to walk away and know when to run.

My respect for firefighters grew exponentially too and I came to understand why so many end up on the ground or hospitalized. Being motivated to save life and property while remaining respectful of your own physical limitations would be so difficult.

Njlarry said:

Are smoke detectors available that are approved for engine rooms? Was the source electrical or other?

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I have installed residential smoke detectors in my engine room, pilot house and flybridge. These are wireless connected so if the one in the engine room activates, all the others will sound the alarm. About $100 for all 3. They work, aren't CG required, so it is irrelevant whether approved for that application.

Also, I have an "Element 50" extinguisher available as a backup to the USCG required extinguishers. Actually I would use that first because it doesn't leave corrosive residue that would destroy my electronics. There are videos of the "Element" system on YouTube. They cost about $85 each, but are highly effective cheap insurance.

Almost all fires start out small, and a smoke detector system would alert you while the fire is in very early stage when it could be easily extinguished. Halon and other fixed system typically don't activate until much later. [emoji924][emoji4]

Is a forensic audit applied whenever a fairly new expensive boat goes up in smoke?

Sharpseadog said:

I have installed residential smoke detectors in my engine room, pilot house and flybridge. These are wireless connected so if the one in the engine room activates, all the others will sound the alarm. About $100 for all 3. They work, aren't CG required, so it is irrelevant whether approved for that application.

Also, I have an "Element 50" extinguisher available as a backup to the USCG required extinguishers. Actually I would use that first because it doesn't leave corrosive residue that would destroy my electronics. There are videos of the "Element" system on YouTube. They cost about $85 each, but are highly effective cheap insurance.

Almost all fires start out small, and a smoke detector system would alert you while the fire is in very early stage when it could be easily extinguished. Halon and other fixed system typically don't activate until much later. [emoji924][emoji4]

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Thank you, lots of good info. By approved I didnt mean CG approved but designed by the manufacturer to work in the hot closed area of an engine room.

ancora said:

Is a forensic audit applied whenever a fairly new expensive boat goes up in smoke?

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Local authorities may audit but insurer highly likely to do so.

On our last boat I had 6 wireless detectors installed. One in the engine room, one each in the two main electrical compartments, one in each stateroom and one up on the bridge so we could hear the alarm if it went off. I was not sure we would hear the alarms going off if we were underway up on the bridge. We had them in place for about 3 years without any issues including the one in the engine room.

We have always had detectors set up to create redundancy and loud universal alarms. Also automatic suppression for the engine spaces and carry in excess of CG requirements for extinguishers. Even do fire drills with new to us crew. Still, electrical fires, especially inside lockers, behind panels, in lazerettes or other confined spaces may not alarm rapidly. Have done the fire safety course. Sure you do what you can but agree with RCs title “the worst nightmare “. At a prior course they lit a one foot square piece of fiberglass alight . I was amazed at how much smoke it made and how hard it was to put out. Our rule is one person deploys the nearest extinguisher but the others get the rest. You may need multiple ones .
We also have fire blankets at the galley and in the engine room. Haven’t had to use them but fellow cruisers tell me cleaning up after setting off an extinguisher is a bear. One of my wife’s nephews is a firefighter have benefited from his knowledge and reviews. Think it’s worth having a knowledgeable person take a look at your boat. Have also benefited from surveyors input and education. Think ABYC rules are helpful and take particular attention to any change a prior owner has made to the electrical system or deviation from ABYC at time of initial construction. Don’t think house electrical code or knowledge translates to boat. Part of the reason we refused a nordhavn we thought to buy was when surveyor found house wiring, non functional GFIs and other violations. Owner did house construction for a living and his wiring was tidy and beautiful but not in accordance to best marine practices.

For those of you who did not watch the video, the story is not about the boat burning up, it's about what is happening after the fire. The owners live in Australia and the boat was in Florida. They were in Australia when it happened. Now they get a notice from the coast guard that at this time since they are the owners, they are at fault. The salvage guys want upwards of $100,000 to remove it but maybe it will cost more. And the insurance company is dragging their feet and not calling them back in a timely manner. And just to make it a little more interesting another boat was burned up too!

What a nightmare. Personally, financially, ecologically...

Russell Clifton said:

For those of you who did not watch the video, the story is not about the boat burning up, it's about what is happening after the fire. The owners live in Australia and the boat was in Florida. They were in Australia when it happened. Now they get a notice from the coast guard that at this time since they are the owners, they are at fault. The salvage guys want upwards of $100,000 to remove it but maybe it will cost more. And the insurance company is dragging their feet and not calling them back in a timely manner. And just to make it a little more interesting another boat was burned up too!

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Well, sadly, it is their responsibility. I hope they're well insured through a reliable company although sounds a bit problematic, but often determining cause slows things down. But also hope they have a nice umbrella policy for anything not covered by insurance. Doesn't take a lot to rack up hundreds of thousands of dollars in damage and responsibility.

I'm sorry but the public whining episode does nothing to make me feel worse for them. All the "it's not my fault". Well, yes it is. Your boat, your responsibility. Then the shock at salvage and Coast Guard? Do you think you'll be allowed to just let it sit and cause more damage? In Australia, you'd be charged for reef damage. I don't know why they're just talking to an insurance agent and not the claims department of the insurer, through the number on their policy. That's the first call they should have made. Public crying doesn't move me and it is just a boat but led to destruction of another boat and environmental damage. They resent being told it's their responsibility, well who do they expect to be held responsible if not them?

I watched the entire video. While I do understand the sense of loss of a house or boat, no lives lost, no one hurt and I'd be rejoicing in that aspect. If they're underinsured, that's on them. Whatever they get paid, they'll still be wealthy compared to those they profess to want to help. A huge setback, but watching them cry and listening to them whine about not their fault just doesn't impress me. I think they lost me when it started with "In this week's episode." Too much like reality tv and all the drama of it.

Boat fires are the emergency I dread most. Had a close call with ER smoke two years ago. I posted a thread here.

An ER smoke alarm and ER Cameras helped me quickly identify and address the problem. Without them, it could have been much worse.

We had a globe on the helm and the sun came thru and caused a cigarette type burn that looked close to taking off. Turns out a lot of fires are caused by glass decorations.Just an fyi.

BandB said:

Well, sadly, it is their responsibility. I hope they're well insured through a reliable company although sounds a bit problematic, but often determining cause slows things down. But also hope they have a nice umbrella policy for anything not covered by insurance. Doesn't take a lot to rack up hundreds of thousands of dollars in damage and responsibility.

I'm sorry but the public whining episode does nothing to make me feel worse for them. All the "it's not my fault". Well, yes it is. Your boat, your responsibility. Then the shock at salvage and Coast Guard? Do you think you'll be allowed to just let it sit and cause more damage? In Australia, you'd be charged for reef damage. I don't know why they're just talking to an insurance agent and not the claims department of the insurer, through the number on their policy. That's the first call they should have made. Public crying doesn't move me and it is just a boat but led to destruction of another boat and environmental damage. They resent being told it's their responsibility, well who do they expect to be held responsible if not them?

I watched the entire video. While I do understand the sense of loss of a house or boat, no lives lost, no one hurt and I'd be rejoicing in that aspect. If they're underinsured, that's on them. Whatever they get paid, they'll still be wealthy compared to those they profess to want to help. A huge setback, but watching them cry and listening to them whine about not their fault just doesn't impress me. I think they lost me when it started with "In this week's episode." Too much like reality tv and all the drama of it.

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Couldn't agree more. Don't confuse "what caused the fire" with "who owns the mess". It doesn't matter whether or not they did something to cause the fire. They are responsible for the boat, whatever happens to it, and what ever damage it causes or mess it makes.


I feel sorry for their loss, but it's drowned out by disgust over their irresponsible attitude. And just who do they think should clean up the mess and pay for the other boat and other damage? All of us?

Sharpseadog said:

I have installed residential smoke detectors in my engine room, pilot house and flybridge. These are wireless connected so if the one in the engine room activates, all the others will sound the alarm. About $100 for all 3. They work, aren't CG required, so it is irrelevant whether approved for that application.

Also, I have an "Element 50" extinguisher available as a backup to the USCG required extinguishers. Actually I would use that first because it doesn't leave corrosive residue that would destroy my electronics. There are videos of the "Element" system on YouTube. They cost about $85 each, but are highly effective cheap insurance.

Almost all fires start out small, and a smoke detector system would alert you while the fire is in very early stage when it could be easily extinguished. Halon and other fixed system typically don't activate until much later. [emoji924][emoji4]

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I did the same with linked, wireless residential smoke detectors in the ER, in companionways where smoke has to collect initially and under the flybridge helm to monitor the wiring there. They also detect CO in the living areas. Also installed a sound detector that picks up a detector going off, activates our (SmartThings) on-board monitoring system and sends me a text. It’s literally instantaneous. Only two false alarms in the year+ since I installed it, both caused by smelly boats next to us starting up.

Appreciate the posts about responsibility and insurance but greatly appreciate hearing how people have tried to decrease risk.
Was taught to never put a looped mooring line on the boats cleats. Then in case of nearby fire you can rapidly remove mooring lines and leave. No need to look for a knife or other implement. Have gone to making up my own unlooped lines. On the rare occasion I need a loop just tie a bowline.
Confounder here is the boat was unattended. Unclear from the vid what if any yacht management was periodically looking at her. Unclear (may have missed it) if she was plugged in. Even on the hard have experienced yards that won’t let you run any electricity to a boat unless someone was on the boat. Interestingly they let your panels and wind generators keep your batteries up. My suspicion in a unattended boat is that this started as an electrical fire. Does anyone have any insight as to the common causes of fire in this setting? Relative percentage of various causes? Know it’s pure conjecture but what do you suspect the cause was?

OAK burns at a rate of 100, common GRP burns at a rate of 500.

A USCG inspected vessel (T boat) must use FR (fire retardant) resin with a burn rate under100. Yes they do check.

The factory duct work folks add a chemical, to bring the burn rate to 15 or so.

It reduces the resin strength by about 2%.

In the past the difference in cost between 500 and 100 or even 15 was pennies per gallon.

The laminate and lay up work are identical.

If new boat owners don't demand FR resin , which should not add 1% to the first cost, we will continue to watch boats burn and be very hard to putout..

FF beyond inspected vessels is that part of other codes like ABYC, norske veritas, Lloyd, EU etc.? Any sense of what percentage of previously constructed grp is fire retardant?

As FF points out, very few recreational fiberglass boats use fire retardant resin. The only ones I know of are Uniflites from the blister years.

Hippocampus said:

Appreciate the posts about responsibility and insurance but greatly appreciate hearing how people have tried to decrease risk.
Was taught to never put a looped mooring line on the boats cleats. Then in case of nearby fire you can rapidly remove mooring lines and leave. No need to look for a knife or other implement. Have gone to making up my own unlooped lines. On the rare occasion I need a loop just tie a bowline.
Confounder here is the boat was unattended. Unclear from the vid what if any yacht management was periodically looking at her. Unclear (may have missed it) if she was plugged in. Even on the hard have experienced yards that won’t let you run any electricity to a boat unless someone was on the boat. Interestingly they let your panels and wind generators keep your batteries up. My suspicion in a unattended boat is that this started as an electrical fire. Does anyone have any insight as to the common causes of fire in this setting? Relative percentage of various causes? Know it’s pure conjecture but what do you suspect the cause was?

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Am I to understand that unattended boats cannot be plugged into shore power?

ancora said:

Am I to understand that unattended boats cannot be plugged into shore power?

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It depends on the yard. Where we're based, it's no problem in the water during the season. But over the winter (on land, no in water storage here), you can plug in while you're there, but for both inside and outside storage, you have to unplug when you leave. Otherwise the yard will unplug you, and if it's a frequent occurrence, they've been known to take a shore power cord so you're forced to go talk to them.

Same in many yards throughout New England and increasing. Always thought this was due to fire risk which is why I mentioned it. While cruising in the eastern Caribbean have run into power hubs so sketchy we choose to run the genset rather than plug in when AC was needed. You could see the partially melted plugs and even external wiring with evidence of heat damage at connections. Given the setting of this catastrophe I wonder if a surge or wiring fault set off an electrical fire. Don’t know anything about how these boats are protected from shore power and their internal wiring. Surely defects would effect the earlier discussion about allocation of liability. Even when the power hub looks perfect have learned to check it before plugging in when we are in a marina.

Got curious about boat fires so searched and found this from Geico.

https://www.boatus.com/expert-advic...e/2021/february/analyzing-onboard-fire-claims

Fire ranked No. 5 among the causes of loss for GEICO | BoatUS Marine Insurance between 2015 and 2019. The majority of these fires started in a few very specific places aboard, with many of them originating in the engine compartment where fuel and an ignition source have a high likelihood of coming together.

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Tis an interesting, short read.

Later,
Dan

So most owners here have diesel powered boats. Geicos numbers probably include more gas than our mix. Lower risk with diesel. Even they come up with nearly half as electrical. 48%. Mostly DC(? Owner”improvements”). Sobering.