dhmeissner
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Bow Thruster Battery
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If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
I'm not familiar with Dyno's different lines, but CMS has stated they and Rolls-Surrette are exceptional makers of true deep cycle FLA batts, the only ones in automotive BCI Group form factors like G-27 G-31 etc
But if you go to a bank based on flooded GC or other lower-voltage cells, you can get much better cycle-lifetime ratings at much lower prices.
Deka's Duracell GCs sold at Sam's and Batteries+ for ~$200 a 200+AH 12Vpair for example, $400 per 24V.
But if Dyno says e.g. that batt's good for 800+ cycles at 50% DoD, I reckon they like Rolls can be taken at their word, unlike most vendors in the 12V arena.
But if you go to a bank based on flooded GC or other lower-voltage cells, you can get much better cycle-lifetime ratings at much lower prices.
Deka's Duracell GCs sold at Sam's and Batteries+ for ~$200 a 200+AH 12Vpair for example, $400 per 24V.
But if Dyno says e.g. that batt's good for 800+ cycles at 50% DoD, I reckon they like Rolls can be taken at their word, unlike most vendors in the 12V arena.
Personally I wouldn't be in that situation, but adapting the larger version of Yandina's Trollbridge might be one way.
http://www.yandina.com/troll2400info.htm
Ann-Marie Foster is the inventor of the first combiners (aka ACR / VSR), stands by her products unconditionally and is a joy to deal with
tech@yandina.com
http://www.yandina.com/troll2400info.htm
Ann-Marie Foster is the inventor of the first combiners (aka ACR / VSR), stands by her products unconditionally and is a joy to deal with
tech@yandina.com
psneeld
Guru
24 volt series connections are not uncommon.
There are relays that will do it or a series of relays are easily done too.
Google it.
FF had a link to the 24/12 volt relays that I have someplace but not handy right now.
There are relays that will do it or a series of relays are easily done too.
Google it.
FF had a link to the 24/12 volt relays that I have someplace but not handy right now.
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psneeld
Guru
Think this was it...if not, with more time I'll try to get it as it is easy enough to google....
12 Volt DC 1500 amp Starter relay replaces Delco 1119845 - 9-845 10-D1602.
stubones99
Guru
That won't charge a 24v battery bank. That relay simply bridges two batteries in series to start the engine using 24vdc. You can temporarily bridge them, making 24 volts out to the starter, and the other gear on the separate batteries stays at 12vdc.
Making 24vdc out of a lower voltage is what is called a boost / buck circuit and uses a capacitor to charge and discharge making power spikes far higher than the input voltage. They regulate the output to what you want, clipping the peaks and providing pulses of higher voltage (lower amperage) power. Another capacitor on the output side converts the pulses into a constant voltage flow.
I didn't think we were talking about charging a 24V bank, and if we were I'd go with a DC-DC charger e.g. Charles Sterling's.
In this case
Two 12V "bank halves" usually kept in parallel for normal use and charging purposes
get connected via the devices under discussion in serial, for intermittent use at 24V as needed.
Higher amp loads http://www.texasindustrialelectric.com/relays_1119865CD.asp
For extended continuous use and flexibility in switching / triggering relays, looks like this is handy
http://www.texasindustrialelectric.com/SCM.asp
As a DIY electronics newbie, I'd probably stick to Ann-Marie's Trollbridge for the hand-holding, unless this alternative was much better or a quarter the price or something.
In this case
Two 12V "bank halves" usually kept in parallel for normal use and charging purposes
get connected via the devices under discussion in serial, for intermittent use at 24V as needed.
Higher amp loads http://www.texasindustrialelectric.com/relays_1119865CD.asp
For extended continuous use and flexibility in switching / triggering relays, looks like this is handy
http://www.texasindustrialelectric.com/SCM.asp
As a DIY electronics newbie, I'd probably stick to Ann-Marie's Trollbridge for the hand-holding, unless this alternative was much better or a quarter the price or something.
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psneeld
Guru
iI believe the relay is to power a 24 volt load with otherwise 12V charging.
People have reportedly used it for 24V thrusters, lets see if FF chimes in with his experoence and 12/24V relays.
People have reportedly used it for 24V thrusters, lets see if FF chimes in with his experoence and 12/24V relays.
JDCAVE
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I have that setup, but I was curious how one could partition a house bank and recombine it in series to 24 volt. It’s “easy enough” with a dedicated 12 volt in series bank for a 24 volt thruster that is charged at 12 volts. After all, John has been championing the use of a house bank for everything for all tasks but I can’t see how that would work for a 24 volt thruster.
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If I really **needed** 24V for my high-amp consumers, I'd go 24V everywhere and use 24-12V converters for low-amp consumer circuits.
And I completely acknowledge, for very high currents and very long wiring runs, a single consolidated House bank may not be practical.
Just saying a separate split bank design should only be used when that truly is the case, not just because heavy wire feels too expensive.
And I completely acknowledge, for very high currents and very long wiring runs, a single consolidated House bank may not be practical.
Just saying a separate split bank design should only be used when that truly is the case, not just because heavy wire feels too expensive.
FF
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A look at the "hot rod" car suppliers will find relay setups created to provide 24V for 12v cars.
As the electric thrusters have severe on time limits , these relays work fine.
Our boat uses hyd , since the white smoke never comes out.
As the electric thrusters have severe on time limits , these relays work fine.
Our boat uses hyd , since the white smoke never comes out.
Ski in NC
Technical Guru
One option is to put two 12v batts in series for the 24v and use two separate 12v chargers, one on the "bottom" batt, one on the "top" batt. Then run 12v loads on the bottom batt. This is not an optimum solution as the bottom batt will cycle more and will die before the top batt. But this is not the end of the world, just replace both when bottom gets weak, or you could even swap the two after a couple of years.
Since each is individually charged, they should top up equally once the charge process is complete.
You want to make sure that the chargers have isolated output, but I think that is pretty universal.
Just throwing out ideas...
Since each is individually charged, they should top up equally once the charge process is complete.
You want to make sure that the chargers have isolated output, but I think that is pretty universal.
Just throwing out ideas...
psneeld
Guru
Absolutely...another test bench excercise/theory versus real world.
there are many ways to skin this cat, some expensive, some less so.
ultimately the existing components determine which new components are necessary...and thus the cost and complication.
JDCAVE
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This thread is topical for me as the thruster bank may be nearing the end of its useful life (about 9 years of age). The PO replaced the FLA batteries with 2 12VDC AGMs, that are combined in series with a relay when the 24 VDC thruster is engaged. The batteries are charged on shore and genny power with a Victron 60 amp charger and with a Balmar Digital Duo Charge (BDDC) while travelling.
Last summer the inline 30 amp fuse on the BDDC popped when I tested the thruster for 1 minute trials. After fuse replacement, the system operated as per specs, but I am concerned with the remaining longevity of the AGMs. These are expensive to replace and I am considering replacement with a couple of Group 31 starter batteries. The batteries are located under the master berth, and the PO went with AGMs because of the gassing issue. So I guess the question is would gassing be less of an issue with "no maintenance" batteries?
It's not intuitive to me how one could "partition" a subset of batteries from a combined house bank so they could be combined in some fashion with a relay to power a 24 VDC thruster...and then return them back to their house bank duties. I would seem to me that would be more difficult to achieve than staying with the current setup.
Jim
Absolutely. AGM are far less robust and shorter lived than top-notch FLA, but some people are bothered by the smell of routine offgassing. AGM do gas but lots less, should not be noticeable as long as they're not sealed up in a box.
caltexflanc
Guru
I think he was referring to the cheap sealed non-AGM batteries sold for cars.
My advice is that given 9 years of service, put AGMs back in there. Total cost of ownership is highly likely to be much less than cheap automotive units. You can get decent AGMs at the warehouse clubs and mass merchants.
If you're actually interested in investigating further, I'd get in touch with Ann-Marie about the Trollbridge.
My understanding is that it does not need the House bank to be split in half, an unbalanced setup is fine with most of House on A side continuing to be used and charged at 12V, B can be a single 12V member.
To the extent B gets very depleted (it's not getting any charge while in use) there is some inrush when it goes back to being paralleled, but her design takes that into account, she says even using LFP.
And the less balanced the two sides, there would be uneven wear.
So personally I think splitting House in half might be the better way to go.
Or B can just be a Starter batt if you like.
Note the Duo would not be needed between the two banks anymore.
A big Yes to the first, but IMO No to the second.
But I'd love to be proven wrong.
Only AGM worth buying for that use would be Odyssey, Lifeline or Northstar.
Firefly if persistent PSOC issues, but with 9 years seems not relevant here.
If previous was a different AGM, next round might be 12?
caltexflanc
Guru
Based on what? I might tend to agree with you for house/inverter bank use, but for starting type purposes guys are getting great service from the Duracells of the world.
I gave my arguments above for true deep cycling batts for this use.
Deka (Duracell actual maker) does not make AGMs that meet that criteria.
Besides those three makers, the only others are far more expensive.
Trojan's haven't been out there long enough, and their over-reaching marketing materials are not a great sign.
Deka (Duracell actual maker) does not make AGMs that meet that criteria.
Besides those three makers, the only others are far more expensive.
Trojan's haven't been out there long enough, and their over-reaching marketing materials are not a great sign.
jointcustody
Veteran Member
I am in this dilemma. I have a 34' chb, and I am installing a bow thruster. I currently have 4 GC deep cycles for a house bank and would really like to have 6 GC, as well as use it as the juice for my bow thruster. I spend a lot of time on anchor in remote places and after I leave the dock, the thruster wont be getting used. I just replaced the 4 GC this spring so I think it wouldnt be two late to add two more.
I was thinking about installing the 4kw lewmar, is the 3kw enough power or do your wish you went with 4? assuming this is a bow thruster and not a stern.
Thanks.
