Nordhavn alternatives

Some 25ish years ago we took a slightly different approach to the island hopping boat choice. We wanted a very seaworthy boat with a 20kt cruise in the 40-45 foot range. We chose an older sport fish. Those who fish are nuts enough to go in all kinds of weather, they just don’t go very far. Our previous boat was a 41’ hatteras with 450hp 671 Detroits. With 400gals of fuel she had a 200+nm range at 18kts, twice that at displacement speed and even more with fuel bladders on deck. And yes, we crossed the Gulf Stream many times, occasionally with wave heights above the fly bridge.

Our recently purchased boat, a Silverton 42 convertible, carries 500gals and cruises 20kts at 35gph giving her a 285nm range with 485hp yanmars running 75% power. She’s not a tank like the Hatt but still quite a capable boat.

While we enjoy fishing and the other uses for the cockpit, some prefer having that space enclosed. For them, some manufacturers with sport fishing pedigrees produced motor yachts on “sport fish” hulls. Hatteras, Viking and Bertram come to mind. All would have the range and seaworthiness for a Caribbean cruise.

Nordhaven alternatives

I trecked from Florida/Bahamas all the way to Venezuela and back, hitting all of the countries in Central & South America along the way and all of the Caribbean islands on the way back, including Cuba. Still cruising, in a different boat.

My boat was a 1982 Ocean Alexander sedan, 42'. Suited the journey very well. Many adventures and difficulties but perservered.

You do not need a Nordhaven or K&K, just a sound vessel and a lot of common sense.

Sharked said:

From what I have read on this forum and other websites, Nordhavn are often the most popular or recommended for long distance liveaboard travels.

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I think that sailboats are still pretty popular and recommended. I take it you've considered that option? Lot of very nice sailing multihull long distance cruisers out there, as well as older offshore proven monohulls at relatively affordable prices.

Right now at the top of our list is a Helmsman 38, I am not convinced yet that it would be big enough to live on without driving each other crazy, but until I can spend some time on one in person it remains our 1st choice.

Been doing this long enough to know every once in awhile all the computer models and your weather router gets it wrong. Also know sometimes you don’t assess a compression zone at the edge of an island or a wind tunnel between two mountains, a rage or other local effects. Further know just about every passage includes a squall line or three. Also have learned the prudence of belt and suspenders if off the shelf.
Yes, going down the east coast and then working east is quite doable in many vessels but passage making is unwise except in a few. There’s a a mystique to the Nordhavns. Most are unnecessary for their actual use and the expense unjustified. Unfortunately it’s a niche market so there few production manufacturers. Personally be happy in a one off of Fe or Al built for that program. However, in grp Nordhavn does stand alone. Grp tanks. True redundancy. Suitable range. Proper construction and fuel handling. True belt and suspenders with stout construction.
Our struggle has been to find a used one where removing and reworking prior owner “improvements “ isn’t too onerous and she has been properly cared for. We accept the Covid bump in price and the fact any 15-20 year old boat will need refit. But been amazed how these ocean going vessels have deteriorated from lack of use , failure to follow ABYC principles or just plain neglect. Have owned and sailed similar level sail on passage. Generally speaking would have no reluctance taking a 20-30 year old Cheribini ketch/schooner, Hinckley, Swan, Baltic, Amel, Outbound, HR etc. on a extended voyage. Surprised in the divergence. Admittedly we’re looking at under 52’. Perhaps it’s different once you go larger. See the same in the KKs so don’t think it’s brand specific. Think folks don’t initially appreciate the purchase price is just the entrance fee. To keep up a voyaging boat (sail or power) at a safe passage making level is a big jump in hours and funds spent c/w a coastal boat. A serious commitment and constant exercise. You give up a lot as well. Ergonomics are different. There’s no reason in my mind to buy any voyaging boat unless that’s your program. Almost all your time you’re still. A coastal boat is generally more comfortable comparing similar sizes and at much less a hit on the cruising kitty. So budget then allows other interests and non boating expenditures.
You read about some N owners who do remarkable things and their boats are well used. Believe TT will be in that group. But it’s a shame too many aren’t used so owners have no need to outfit and maintain their boats for that service. It shows when boat hunting.

Consider an American Tug41. I own an AT34 and really like it, checked all my boxes. They are both 'costal' so that means, no further out that 200miles. Personally, I have no intention of going out 200miles.

Dont worry about a N41 being your first boat. If you buy a Nordhavn first, you wont have to worry about buying a 2nd boat.

Pay attention to waterline length. Dont worry about LOA. LOA includes the bow pulpit and the swim platform.

OldDan1943 said:

Pay attention to waterline length. Dont worry about LOA. LOA includes the bow pulpit and the swim platform.

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Be careful with age of the boat on this one. On older boats, the listed LOA is often really LOD (length on deck), as it's the length of the molded hull and excludes any bolt ons (so a molded in platform counts, but a bolt on one doesn't). Newer stuff has gotten rid of that distinction and the LOA is often the real LOA (measured tip to tip). That's why some builders (like American Tug) have re-numbered models over time without actually changing the size (like the AT34 became the AT365 and the AT37 became the AT395).

On my boat, for example, the manufacturer lists the LOA as 38'0", but that doesn't include the bolted on bow pulpit or swim platform. Those bring the total up to 42'4", so if sold new today, it would likely be sold as a 42 or 43 foot boat (with the listed LOA as 42'4").

OldDan1943 said:

Dont worry about a N41 being your first boat. If you buy a Nordhavn first, you wont have to worry about buying a 2nd boat.

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Wrong. Huge percentage of N41 buyers move up to other Nordhavn's or on to other boats. It's seldom a final boat.

Seagoing motoryachts

As an MIT trained naval architect and marine engineer & a holder of a merchant license for over 40 years with countless sea miles aboard all sorts of boats; in my opinion if you intend any deep water cruising, I would only consider a full displacement vessel. However, all are not created equal...there can be vast differences in seaworthiness and seakindliness. Many cruisers who are very happy with their boats lack the experience and context to appreciate it could be much better in the right boat.

For example, there are loads of well-designed, engineered and built steel boats available which in my opinion are far superior to most Asian built trawlers. An older, fully depreciated boat that has been well loved and updated is usually a much better value than a newer boat provided that boat has a great pedigree. Such boats can be quite affordable relative to others. I often speak at events on the virtues of simpler boats. I would be happy to expand on this subject privately.

JOHN CLAYMAN said:

As an MIT trained naval architect and marine engineer & a holder of a merchant license for over 40 years with countless sea miles aboard all sorts of boats; in my opinion if you intend any deep water cruising, I would only consider a full displacement vessel. However, all are not created equal...there can be vast differences in seaworthiness and seakindliness. Many cruisers who are very happy with their boats lack the experience and context to appreciate it could be much better in the right boat.

For example, there are loads of well-designed, engineered and built steel boats available which in my opinion are far superior to most Asian built trawlers. An older, fully depreciated boat that has been well loved and updated is usually a much better value than a newer boat provided that boat has a great pedigree. Such boats can be quite affordable relative to others. I often speak at events on the virtues of simpler boats. I would be happy to expand on this subject privately.

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Wow...I have wondered for years whether anyone here would actually speak this truth out loud in the face of the widespread hype around a few species of what I would personally consider very ordinary and perhaps overly complex sea boats.
I recognize my own bias as well, but this above seems very well spoken truth that is rarely acknowledged.

klee wyck said:

Wow...I have wondered for years whether anyone here would actually speak this truth out loud in the face of the widespread hype around a few species of what I would personally consider very ordinary and perhaps overly complex sea boats.
I recognize my own bias as well, but this above seems very well spoken truth that is rarely acknowledged.

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That's not speaking truth though. It's speaking opinion. Just like yours is.

BandB said:

That's not speaking truth though. It's speaking opinion. Just like yours is.

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Agree completely. Poor choice of words on my part.
The prior poster actually had some credentials though...

klee wyck said:

Agree completely. Poor choice of words on my part.
The prior poster actually had some credentials though...

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Yes. But it's like expert witnesses in court cases. The other side says "I'll see you and raise you one." Credentials are great but even the most highly credentialed have personal preferences.

There are people on this site that use their Nordhavns for their intended mission, including extensive coastal cruising. The reality is, roughly 90 percent of them are Dock queens. That number is no different than than other trawler style boats. IE, the vast majority of them are parked, and don’t leave the marina very often.

For us, a Nord was never an option. We just do the coastal cruising thing but we are in and out of marinas, picking up cans, and anchoring in tight coves with lots of boats around. A good part of the time I am solo.

We have a 46 ft loa boat. A similar length N43 is a small ship in comparison to the volume and systems. I just couldn’t do the things we are doing with one, especially solo.

Not disparaging the brand, just my .02 for how we operate and the choice selection process we went through.

BandB said:

Wrong. Huge percentage of N41 buyers move up to other Nordhavn's or on to other boats. It's seldom a final boat.

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Then start out with a N47.
My point was supposed to be, the Nordhavns' have a good reputation and hold their resale value.

ksanders said:

If that reduction in purchase price can get you out on the water, Vs spending more years in the office pushing your life calendar while paying for a boat, that is something to really consider.

There is no doubt I could afford a Nordhavn. I choose my Bayliner because i am unwilling to trade the extra four or five years of my life sitting at work to pay for it, and risking never going cruising because my body's calendar ran out of time.

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this can happen very suddenly. don't plan forever and delay too long.

JOHN CLAYMAN said:

As an MIT trained naval architect and marine engineer & a holder of a merchant license for over 40 years with countless sea miles aboard all sorts of boats; in my opinion if you intend any deep water cruising, I would only consider a full displacement vessel. However, all are not created equal...there can be vast differences in seaworthiness and seakindliness. Many cruisers who are very happy with their boats lack the experience and context to appreciate it could be much better in the right boat.

For example, there are loads of well-designed, engineered and built steel boats available which in my opinion are far superior to most Asian built trawlers. An older, fully depreciated boat that has been well loved and updated is usually a much better value than a newer boat provided that boat has a great pedigree. Such boats can be quite affordable relative to others. I often speak at events on the virtues of simpler boats. I would be happy to expand on this subject privately.

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Thank you.

Sharked said:

I have a friend in Florida who does some runs out to the Bahamas, and he sees plenty of Carver, Sea Ray, Doral, Regal in south Florida and Bahamas. Being a Canadian I always thought they were more suited as lake cruisers, however they are significantly cheaper then what I would be paying for a Nordhavn or even other trawler type boats like a Sabre, or Backcove, Helmsman, etc.

I know those boats would be fine around Bahama's its the longer stretches to the other islands that concern me. Other then the obvious fuel capacity requirements to reach the other islands, for example going from Turks & Cacios to BVI I think would be the longest stretch (bypassing Hati, DR, PR)

Would any of those Cruiser style boats (ea Ray, Doral, Regal, etc) be recommended by experienced island hopping cruisers? From what I read, the models with diesel can get similar fuel economy when running slow then for example a single screw trawler.

Random Example of what I mean:
https://www.yachtworld.com/barche/2004/sea-ray-420-sundancer-3731630/

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There can be a big difference between a 1990s Sea Ray/Carver/whatever and a 2015 Sea Ray/Carver/whatever. That pesky evolution thing.

There's also a big difference between a 30' Sundancer and a 58 Sundancer; more space, (usually) better access to fix stuff. I'm not all that excited about express cruisers; tried that once, two boats ago, didn't like the visibility from the lower (only) helm and didn't like living in a cave when weather sucked. But if you think you'd be comfortable in the limited space and with the features some of those offer, they could be worth a look.

I wouldn't make a blanket statement for all boats from a given maker, but my opinion is that several of those brands make or have made very viable platforms for what you're hoping to do. See some of the Carvers from 52/53' on up, Sea Rays over 50', etc. for examples. There's a blog out there from a 42 Silverton owner who made a life transfer trip from Boston to St. Johns... perhaps without the best weather planning, but they got there safely enough.

-Chris

Include DeFevers in your research. Since the 1950s, they've been favorite, comfortable, sea worthy, off-shore cruisers that can cross oceans, run Alaska to Acapulco, or do the Loop. No longer being built, they are all used and usually loved. Good luck!

SeaStarDF50 said:

Include DeFevers in your research. Since the 1950s, they've been favorite, comfortable, sea worthy, off-shore cruisers that can cross oceans, run Alaska to Acapulco, or do the Loop. No longer being built, they are all used and usually loved. Good luck!

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Ah yup, the DeFevers are a another good alternate.

OldDan1943 said:

Then start out with a N47.
My point was supposed to be, the Nordhavns' have a good reputation and hold their resale value.

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And move up to 60'+. It's just the way things are.

Not all Nordhavns

Sharked said:

From what I have read on this forum and other websites, Nordhavn are often the most popular or recommended for long distance liveaboard travels.

That being said if I do not plan to go up the Pacific coast to Alaska or cross the Atlantic, does spending the big money for a Nordhavn make sense?

I know there are unlimited choices for ICW & Bahama's capable boats, but if I plan to head further south into the Caribbean, BVI, Turks & Cacios, St Lucia, Bonaire, etc, is something like a Nordhavn required?

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Not all Nordhavn’s are ocean crossers, Nordhavn Coastal Pilot 59’, twins, 15/16 kt fast cruise, 5’ draft, simple systems (albeit robust), modern layout, ocean capable from Alaska to Maine on its own bottom, can do the loop, easy for a couple, stand up engine room, should I go on? Oh yeah, it’s a NORDHAVN!

Karma, N5902 CP

BandB said:

And move up to 60'+. It's just the way things are.

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Not all. Many of us are happy putting along at 7 Kn in a single engine getting good fuel economy and enjoying the view.

Other offshore trawlers

Selene us a fine boat. But the price is right up there with the nords but if your not a John Deere fan which I am not since the only good Deere is a cat chasing it I wanted the cummins qsl9 a fabulous low revi g engine great duration selene will install . I like the slightly lower profile on a selene especially if stabilizers,crap out which they will. We have 20000 miles open ocean on our selene 53. But most folks will never get the use out of boats like that

Jmackai said:

Selene us a fine boat. But the price is right up there with the nords but if your not a John Deere fan which I am not since the only good Deere is a cat chasing it I wanted the cummins qsl9 a fabulous low revi g engine great duration selene will install . I like the slightly lower profile on a selene especially if stabilizers,crap out which they will. We have 20000 miles open ocean on our selene 53. But most folks will never get the use out of boats like that

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I concur completely. Wonder if Selene will ever hand out distance Burgee’s.

Fletcher500 said:

Not all. Many of us are happy putting along at 7 Kn in a single engine getting good fuel economy and enjoying the view.

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You can do that in 60
I am doing it now
1150 rpm, 7.5 knots

Don’t wait

Always amazes me how much press Nordhavn gets. Great boat, complex because of redundancy and complete systems. That Budget gets you in an elite circle of boats you can buy. Nordhavn group- one budget. Any of the many70’s , 80’s and 90’s thrifty boats another. Any one can do the Caribbean, but as one poster said earlier, the weather man is not always right. Then, a “middle of the road “ choice probably gets you there without too much stress. Weight is your friend, provides nicer motion. Suggest thinking about Defevers, Hats, Diesel Ducks, Seahorses. All an be had on a reasonable budget and most have somewhat simpler systems. But just do it. Life is short.

I agree with DavidM and have a look to these old but so well built Hatteras LRCs. I just purchased one in Europe and start a complete refit. The hull is so well built and thought. These boats deserves a proper complete refit including engines, generator...

Fletcher500 said:

There are people on this site that use their Nordhavns for their intended mission, including extensive coastal cruising. The reality is, roughly 90 percent of them are Dock queens. That number is no different than than other trawler style boats. IE, the vast majority of them are parked, and don’t leave the marina very often.

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Evidence? From my observations, it seems more Nordhavns (and other similar brands), as a percentage of their population, are on the move than at the dock.

More generally I think that larger and more capable trawlers are used more extensively than an 'average' boat.

danderer said:

Evidence? From my observations, it seems more Nordhavns (and other similar brands), as a percentage of their population, are on the move than at the dock.

More generally I think that larger and more capable trawlers are used more extensively than an 'average' boat.

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You may be right, and they may be used more than the other trawler style boats, but not much IMO. I travel in and out of so cal marinas on a regular basis, and out to the Island chains. I also walk the docks when I am visiting new places, and chat with others. My observation is the vast majority stay parked. Your area of cruising and/or observations may be different.