Nordhavn alternatives

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Sharked

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From what I have read on this forum and other websites, Nordhavn are often the most popular or recommended for long distance liveaboard travels.

That being said if I do not plan to go up the Pacific coast to Alaska or cross the Atlantic, does spending the big money for a Nordhavn make sense?

I know there are unlimited choices for ICW & Bahama's capable boats, but if I plan to head further south into the Caribbean, BVI, Turks & Cacios, St Lucia, Bonaire, etc, is something like a Nordhavn required?
 
I cannot speak to what is specifically required for the cruising areas you asked about, but alternatives to the Nordhavn include: Kadey Krogen and Fleming, and I am sure many others as well.
Like Nordhavn, Kadey Krogens are regularly used for "off shore" and long distance travelling due to being full displacement hulls, and being designed and equipped to enable that "mission". Very good friends have owned 2 different models of KK's, the KK 44 and now the KK 52. They are beautiful, capable boats, IMHO.
 
I agree with KKs and Flemings (although that is one beautiful and expensive boat). To that you can add Selenes, the Hatteras 48LRC and various low production steel hulled trawlers like the Diesel Duck.

David
 
From what I have read on this forum and other websites, Nordhavn are often the most popular or recommended for long distance liveaboard travels.

That being said if I do not plan to go up the Pacific coast to Alaska or cross the Atlantic, does spending the big money for a Nordhavn make sense?

I know there are unlimited choices for ICW & Bahama's capable boats, but if I plan to head further south into the Caribbean, BVI, Turks & Cacios, St Lucia, Bonaire, etc, is something like a Nordhavn required?

A boat like a Nordhavn or any of the other passagemaking capable boats are only required when your planned voyages between safe harbors/anchorages are beyond our current three day weather forecast capability, or you need the fuel range.

That said, a heavy weather boat will allow you to leave port on days that would be extremely unpleasant and or dangerous in a less sea kindly boat. But... That is only if you choose to travel in those conditions.

You mentioned Alaska and the West Coast...

I am planning on an adventure in my 47' Bayliner from Alaska to as far as at least La Paz baja next year. I know a gentleman that made the southern portion of this voyage and was part of the FUBAR group in 2019 in the very same boat, and I have done the northern section in my boat already.

My boat is no heavy weather boat, and I am using it as an example of a normal coastal cruiser doing what it was designed to do, cruise the coastlines on decent weather days.

On your side of North America I follow a couple on youtube that hails from Canada and has went up and down the east coast several times, and spends their winters cruising the bahamas in a 44' tollycraft.

So... Yes you need a Nordhavn for certain things, but no, it is not necessary to spend that kind of money for coastal cruising, or island hopping.

If that reduction in purchase price can get you out on the water, Vs spending more years in the office pushing your life calendar while paying for a boat, that is something to really consider.

There is no doubt I could afford a Nordhavn. I choose my Bayliner because i am unwilling to trade the extra four or five years of my life sitting at work to pay for it, and risking never going cruising because my body's calendar ran out of time.

That said, if you can afford a Nordhavn and still have good health years to enjoy it, then by all means spend the money, you will not be dissapointed. I have friend with a Nordhavn 50 right now had it's a gorgeous, very capable boat.
 
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There are other boats like Outer Reef and Offshore and even those like Horizon and Cheoy Lee make passagemakers. That's on top of KK, Fleming, and Selene already mentioned.

In addition some slightly larger semi-displacement boats would be good for the waters you outline. Hatteras and Viking specifically. With other boats, range becomes a challenge. Now as you increase in size, it's less of an issue. For instance many boats in the 70-85' range are excellent for those waters.
 
Any well maintained, reasonably comfortable, with the range, boat can make an overnight or 2 day run between harbors. Just have to pick the weather window. To be honest most of us are fair weather boaters. We don't run when the weather is going to be rough.
Some are better suited than others.
 
@sharked: We are in same spot as you. We are looking to cruise east coast, Gulf, and the Islands, and maybe great loop. A smaller Nordhavn I think would fit us well but we need a fly bridge so I think the N41 is out, plus for first boat we would not want to spend the $750k+.

Love Nordhavn but wondering if it will be too much boat given we will not be crossing oceans and probably trying not to deal with horrible weather/seas. On the other hand the Nordhavn gives us tons of confidence as well, especially since we are new to boating.

I will be subscribing to this thread and the suggestions already given are in our thoughts. The GB 42'ish is also nice, as are Mainships, plus others.

If we wanted to cruise the Med as some point we could hire crew to deliver for us and spend time there piloting ourselves, this I could see us doing.

The Nordhavn opens tons of options as do comparable boats. We are looking to purchase next year so what is on market may dictate also.
The other question we have is do we really want trawler speed 24/7 or would ability to speed up be a benefit we would want. Not sure but the Beneteau Swift allows for trawler and faster speeds when needed or wanted.
 
Just before Covid, a couple listed their Taiwan 1980s vintage 40 tri-cabin (I forget brand- think it was a Defever) for sale on CruisersForum. Asking price was $50k or trade for an RV. They had just completed a 2 year cruise from San Diego to Florida and were ready for something new.

The family of 4 on Bumfuzzle.com write extensively about their jaunts through the Caribbean aboard their older GB42

15 years ago, I did the Baja Ha Ha on a friend's Willard 40 (BHH is a 800 nm run from San Diego to Cabo, though many use it as their launch into full time cruisong). One of the other two powerboats was a Hershine 37 single engine trunk cabin trawler. They were headed to the Caribbean.

Sooner or later, I'll get my act together and bring my 1970 Willard 36 from Ensenada to Florida. Would I select a W36 to run 5000nms with some legs of over 500nms? No, not even sure it would be in my top 10 for the trip. But it's the boat I have and it's more than capable with some patience and planning. Sort of the same story for the other boats I mentioned above.

What do all of these boats have in common? Caribbean and under $100k boats (well, for me,, Caribbean is planned)

Nordhavns are great boats. They are capable and tend to be complicated. They are popular with very knowledgeable cruisers of means, and popular with new entrants into power cruising as they tick a lot of boxes to reduce risk, especially important as many new nordhavn owners lack confidence and seek to reduce as much risk as possible. They are a good choice, and they do reduce some safety risk (though at the price of both money and complexity)

Don't over think this. Get a decent boat that suits your real plans vs additional staterooms for people who might show up but probably won't. Learn as much about repairs and maintenance as you can, get the best weather forecastinf access you can afford, and go.

Peter
 
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I prefer the converted ex commercial trawlers myself
Similar attributes in many ways to a Nordy (disp, draft, range, load carrying ability and proven sea keeping ability) but without the price tag.

Saying that, shiny ones usually do have a high price tag.
 
That being said if I do not plan to go up the Pacific coast to Alaska or cross the Atlantic, does spending the big money for a Nordhavn make sense?

I know there are unlimited choices for ICW & Bahama's capable boats, but if I plan to head further south into the Caribbean, BVI, Turks & Cacios, St Lucia, Bonaire, etc, is something like a Nordhavn required?

I think for your specific question, no. You give up things to have a passage maker. For example, we are 40 feet with 930 gallons of diesel tankage. Imagine the additional interior space we could have. Another…we are 107 horsepower and max out at 8 knots. It might be nice to do 11 or 15 in a current, running an inlet, etc. Compromises.

As was mentioned, if you are within a couple of days of land…any coastal cruiser will run a good weather window.

I am a Nordhavn (and Selene and Buehler and Fleming and Krogen) fan, and the crew Pacific Asian Enterprises/Nordhavn have treated us very well.

Nordhavn was right for us due to our mission, equipment desires, and the option value that incredible versatility offers us.

Peter’s last paragraph is golden - “Don't over think this. Get a decent boat that suits your real plans vs additional staterooms for people who might show up but probably won't. Learn as much about repairs and maintenance as you can, get the best weather forecastinf access you can afford, and go.”
 
There are lots of very capable boats out there. Not sure how nordhavn got to your holy grail list but they are just another boat brand. Get what suits your mission and pocketbook.
 
Concur with all the above…But most important…Get a boat that suits your desires and get out there and do it.
20K NM over 6 years with no stabilizers and dont regret it for a moment, we’ve had a blast. SE Alaska down along the west coast, through the the canal and up to So Carolina.
We have seen all sorts of boats out there doing the same as us, and a ton of them not what I would call, Blue Water boats.

Cheers
 
I do tend to overthink and analyze things, just my nature I guess. With this being a huge transition for us, I want to make as informed choice as I can, and gather as much information as I can.

Some others have suggested chartering different model 1st and I think that is a very wise move, so I will definitely be doing that. However there is no point in chartering a Nordhavn, if its overkill in capabilities for what I need, and out of my budget.

I have a friend in Florida who does some runs out to the Bahamas, and he sees plenty of Carver, Sea Ray, Doral, Regal in south Florida and Bahamas. Being a Canadian I always thought they were more suited as lake cruisers, however they are significantly cheaper then what I would be paying for a Nordhavn or even other trawler type boats like a Sabre, or Backcove, Helmsman, etc.

I know those boats would be fine around Bahama's its the longer stretches to the other islands that concern me. Other then the obvious fuel capacity requirements to reach the other islands, for example going from Turks & Cacios to BVI I think would be the longest stretch (bypassing Hati, DR, PR)



Would any of those Cruiser style boats (ea Ray, Doral, Regal, etc) be recommended by experienced island hopping cruisers? From what I read, the models with diesel can get similar fuel economy when running slow then for example a single screw trawler.

Random Example of what I mean:
https://www.yachtworld.com/barche/2004/sea-ray-420-sundancer-3731630/
 
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I do tend to overthink and analyze things, just my nature I guess. With this being a huge transition for us, I want to make as informed choice as I can, and gather as much information as I can.

Some others have suggested chartering different model 1st and I think that is a very wise move, so I will definitely be doing that. However there is no point in chartering a Nordhavn, if its overkill in capabilities for what I need, and out of my budget.

I have a friend in Florida who does some runs out to the Bahamas, and he sees plenty of Carver, Sea Ray, Doral, Regal in south Florida and Bahamas. Being a Canadian I always thought they were more suited as lake cruisers, however they are significantly cheaper then what I would be paying for a Nordhavn or even other trawler type boats like a Sabre, or Backcove, Helmsman, etc.

I know those boats would be fine around Bahama's its the longer stretches to the other islands that concern me. Other then the obvious fuel capacity requirements to reach the other islands, for example going from Turks & Cacios to BVI I think would be the longest stretch (bypassing Hati, DR, PR)



Would any of those Cruiser style boats (ea Ray, Doral, Regal, etc) be recommended by experienced island hopping cruisers? From what I read, the models with diesel can get similar fuel economy when running slow then for example a single screw trawler.

Random Example of what I mean:
https://www.yachtworld.com/barche/2004/sea-ray-420-sundancer-3731630/

SO...

You are tending to over think things simply because you do not have any real world experience. This leads you to a specific type of boat, overlooking all the other types of boats on the market.

When you are talking about maximizing fuel economy, and also talking about buying a boat for a half million plus something does not make sense, again because you do not have a base of experience to draw from. No fault of yours, it's just the position you are in.

In any boat that you will cruise long distances your cost of fuel will not be a najor part of your expenses. It's not like you cruise 24x7. You go to a place, explore it for a week or more and move to the next place. Thinking like that makes the differences between boats fuel economy somewhat trivial.
 
I have owned and been in boats my whole life, growing up in Nova Scotia until I was 20 I spent a lot of time sailing and lobster fishing. For the past 25 years I have been living in Ontario, and mostly lake boats, starting from 16ft bow riders, up to my current boat which is a 28ft Four Winns.

I am very comfortable in boats and on the water, however your right my experience is limited to a few overnight trips around the Trent-Severn.

I guess my question I was trying to find an answer to is this:

If my goal is the island hop:

Florida -> Bahama's -> BVI -> southeast down the chain to Grenda, would any type of cruiser boat be suitable assuming it had enough fuel range to span the largest crossing between islands?

IE, 40ft crusiers like Sea Rays, Carvers, etc.

Or would buying any of those "cruiser style" boats be a huge mistake for my intended route, and I should be looking at boats that are considered more capable such as: Fleming, Grandbanks, Sabre, Mainship, Helmsman, Backcove,



SO...

You are tending to over think things simply because you do not have any real world experience. This leads you to a specific type of boat, overlooking all the other types of boats on the market.

When you are talking about maximizing fuel economy, and also talking about buying a boat for a half million plus something does not make sense, again because you do not have a base of experience to draw from. No fault of yours, it's just the position you are in.

In any boat that you will cruise long distances your cost of fuel will not be a najor part of your expenses. It's not like you cruise 24x7. You go to a place, explore it for a week or more and move to the next place. Thinking like that makes the differences between boats fuel economy somewhat trivial.
 
Love Nordhavn but wondering if it will be too much boat given we will not be crossing oceans and probably trying not to deal with horrible weather/seas. On the other hand the Nordhavn gives us tons of confidence as well, especially since we are new to boating.

If we wanted to cruise the Med as some point we could hire crew to deliver for us and spend time there piloting ourselves, this I could see us doing.

The Nordhavn opens tons of options as do comparable boats. We are looking to purchase next year so what is on market may dictate also.
The other question we have is do we really want trawler speed 24/7 or would ability to speed up be a benefit we would want. Not sure but the Beneteau Swift allows for trawler and faster speeds when needed or wanted.


I think the Nordhavn are great boats. They are exceptionally well suited for their intended purpose, blue water cruising. You already said that you won’t be crossing oceans. Some of the features that make blue water boats capable of doing that, don’t necessarily make them idea for coastal or inland cruising.

You then mentioned possibly wanting faster speed. My first thought is that you may not really know what you want yet. That is normal and you have time to think about it. In the meantime, I would suggest chartering some boats. You will find out what features and attributes are important to you that way.
 
I do tend to overthink and analyze things, just my nature I guess. With this being a huge transition for us, I want to make as informed choice as I can, and gather as much information as I can.

Some others have suggested chartering different model 1st and I think that is a very wise move, so I will definitely be doing that. However there is no point in chartering a Nordhavn, if its overkill in capabilities for what I need, and out of my budget.

I have a friend in Florida who does some runs out to the Bahamas, and he sees plenty of Carver, Sea Ray, Doral, Regal in south Florida and Bahamas. Being a Canadian I always thought they were more suited as lake cruisers, however they are significantly cheaper then what I would be paying for a Nordhavn or even other trawler type boats like a Sabre, or Backcove, Helmsman, etc.

I know those boats would be fine around Bahama's its the longer stretches to the other islands that concern me. Other then the obvious fuel capacity requirements to reach the other islands, for example going from Turks & Cacios to BVI I think would be the longest stretch (bypassing Hati, DR, PR)



Would any of those Cruiser style boats (ea Ray, Doral, Regal, etc) be recommended by experienced island hopping cruisers? From what I read, the models with diesel can get similar fuel economy when running slow then for example a single screw trawler.

Random Example of what I mean:
https://www.yachtworld.com/barche/2004/sea-ray-420-sundancer-3731630/

Wifey B: Good morning from wherever I am. It never gets dark here so ^#^% confusing. :rofl:

Now, sharked. You're so far away in Toronto from where you plan to be? Must walk before you run and run a lot before you enter a marathon. Hope you know this won't be your last boat? :nonono: So it might not be the do all, end all. :ermm: The Sundancer can run all around in the Caribbean......but......wouldn't say the Doral or Regal and many Carvers.....but......but #2....range....and now the big but....#3. Less captable the boat, fewer days you can use it. Less capable the boat, the less you and family will want to use it.

We have all these tomfoolery talks sometimes on blue water boats but the real question is blue water boaters. A lot of things can be done safely, but miserably to the average boater.

A 42' Sundancer will do better than a 35' but a 45' even better. The drive types in a Sundancer make a difference even. Might consider some Grand Banks and North Pacific's and similar though. They'll do 90% of what the Sundancer will and 50% more. Sundancer style isn't the best for long, long, long, long, long times living on boats. Not what it's designed for. :eek:

Look at different boats in person and on YW. Decide how slow you can go or how fast you prefer and correlate with what you're prepared to spend on fuel as it sort of goes together. I was just reading a word document from a friend here again this morning and he dared to say "one must go SLOW. (Is that word even in your vocabulary??)" to us. Guess he knows us well. I can spell SLOW but really don't like doing it. :hide: But most here prefer it greatly. Only you can decide for you. :confused:

This big blue water thing isn't necessarily as threatening or big or huge as some make it appear. However, you must base weather windows and crossings on your boat, on yourself, on those aboard with you. We have friends who are avid boaters with us and we splash across pretty big seas at speed. But we'd never take newbies out in those conditions. Instead of giggling and laughing and yelling more, we'd get screams and wanting to stop and go in and never get back on a boat. I must warn you that one bad experience can lead someone, such as a spouse, to say never again and end all the fun. :banghead: Sort of like "fun fun fun till my daddy took the T-Bird away." Boating can be fun until it isn't anymore and you need to make sure it never reaches that point. :nonono:

I don't know your finances or your family or much of anything about you. But I'd go one of the following two routes.

The coastal route-Buy a boat adequate for the coast and the Bahamas and enjoy it and then ultimately decide whether you want to go further in it or a new boat.

or......

The all-the-way route-Within your finances, get the most boat you can that you know can handle the Caribbean.

One last thing I must say. You said (bypassing Hati, DR, PR). Yes, I left the i out just like you did. No, no, no. Did I say :nonono::nonono::nonono: . I mean I would currently bypass Haiti. However, it's only something like 130 nm or so, depending on where in Turks and Caicos, to Puerto Plata, DR, which is a super place to visit as is Samana, DR, as is much of PR and the USVI and then the BVI. You're wanting to do controlled jumps, at least at first, so don't start bypassing yet. :)

Rent, charter, explore new and different areas. Be respectful but not intimidated and please, don't fall victim to that few who will tell you that if you go to these areas on any boat other than the one the push, you're doomed. Plenty of people who live there have far less seaworthy boats. Moorings in the BVI only uses Power Catamarans from 40-53' for their power boats. :ermm:

So research but don't overthink and only you know what that is for you as some of us must do more than others to be happy. Then go boating. :speed boat::speed boat::speed boat:
 
From what I have read on this forum and other websites, Nordhavn are often the most popular or recommended for long distance liveaboard travels.

That being said if I do not plan to go up the Pacific coast to Alaska or cross the Atlantic, does spending the big money for a Nordhavn make sense?

I know there are unlimited choices for ICW & Bahama's capable boats, but if I plan to head further south into the Caribbean, BVI, Turks & Cacios, St Lucia, Bonaire, etc, is something like a Nordhavn required?

If you were to travel to the places mentioned for a look see you’d see mostly sail boats. The power boats represented would have many different brand names. What is your budget and experience? For no worries why not an FPB 64?
 
+1 on chartering especially in one of your target destinations. You may not be able to charter the perfect boat but you should be able to find a larger boat to go run around on. This will get you some island experience and help you form your list of must haves and nice to haves.

These guys happened to capture a nasty storm while they were at anchor. The storm footage starts around 5:30 minute mark.

Think about the type of boat you want to be sitting on when something like that comes through your anchorage. Mother Nature is a master at surprises.
 
"That being said if I do not plan to go up the Pacific coast to Alaska or cross the Atlantic, does spending the big money for a Nordhavn make sense?"

Not at all ,besides being 200-300% more expensive the features that are a delight offshore do nothing for the usual trawler travels.

Larger tanks mean less room for other goodies. Vast food storage is great for 3-6 months if independant travel ,but reduces room for humans. Frequent hand grips , and less open areas (so occupants can't be tossed as far) is not for all.

To me one big goal is a zero round trip, you can sell the boat for what you paid , no ,it does not include "improvements " or repairs , or operating expenses.

The top of the line offshore boats have good reputations for what they can do, tho not one in a hundred (perhaps 1/1000) actually use the feature paid for.
 
I have owned and been in boats my whole life, growing up in Nova Scotia until I was 20 I spent a lot of time sailing and lobster fishing. For the past 25 years I have been living in Ontario, and mostly lake boats, starting from 16ft bow riders, up to my current boat which is a 28ft Four Winns.

I am very comfortable in boats and on the water, however your right my experience is limited to a few overnight trips around the Trent-Severn.

I guess my question I was trying to find an answer to is this:

If my goal is the island hop:

Florida -> Bahama's -> BVI -> southeast down the chain to Grenda, would any type of cruiser boat be suitable assuming it had enough fuel range to span the largest crossing between islands?

IE, 40ft crusiers like Sea Rays, Carvers, etc.

Or would buying any of those "cruiser style" boats be a huge mistake for my intended route, and I should be looking at boats that are considered more capable such as: Fleming, Grandbanks, Sabre, Mainship, Helmsman, Backcove,


For that kind of use, the more capable of the coastal cruiser types could do it, but I'd say heading that far out into the Carribean will want more fuel range and a more comfortable motion in seas than many cruiser types have. So I'd tend to cross the Sea Rays off the list (I'm not sure they've ever made anything well suited to this use), but for the others, look at each specific model individually, particularly with some of the brands like Carver and Bayliner. Plenty of brands have made various different boats with very different real-world capability despite appearing similar at a glance.

I wouldn't hesitate to do the Bahamas in my boat, but with gas engines, fuel range is a problem. And it's not an ideal hull for serious offshore work for various reasons, so I'd have to give some serious thought to whether good planning would be enough for taking it further out.
 
I wouldn't hesitate to do the Bahamas in my boat, but with gas engines, fuel range is a problem. And it's not an ideal hull for serious offshore work for various reasons, so I'd have to give some serious thought to whether good planning would be enough for taking it further out.

Bahamas are nothing like the Caribbean.
 
Bahamas are nothing like the Caribbean.

That's exactly my point. The majority of coastal cruisers can handle the Bahamas, but a much smaller subset of them are suitable for heading further out into the Carribean, even with careful planning.
 
Alternatives

Having owned three Nordhavn's and more recently a Helmsman 38E (good boat) my opinion (for what its worth) is for you to use the 90% rule and find a well built and quality boat. Focus on quality / safety over size in your search. Remember a wider beam offers more space and is less costly to own when compared to LOA.
Granted we always felt "safe" with our Norhdavn's (overbuilt) and we missed that on the Helmsman at times "but" Nordhavn's are complex boats (many systems) and they require a lot of attention and budget. Sometimes simpler can be better...

If you can afford the Nordhavn then go for it (used is fine) and you will likely be glade you did when the weather turns bad and your getting bounced around. If not then look for something else with a good reputation that fits your mission. Don't rush your search, get aboard as many boats as possible before making your decision..

John T
 
I have always liked this one
Gardner powered , steel, has travelled Australia and South East Asia
Could buy her and still have a million in change to run and maintain her or invest and provide income.


0_4.jpg


https://yachthub.com/list/boats-for...lindsay-smith-long-range-motor-cruiser/252245
 
Those look ginormous for a 55'.
Yep, haven't been on this one but have been on a sister ship and I was blown away by the space.
Seemed much bigger than our 60 fter
Very much the TARDIS
 
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