No reverse with Morse Controls

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dhays

dhays

Guru
Joined
May 26, 2015
Messages
9,045
Location
United States
Vessel Name
Kinship
Vessel Make
North Pacific 43
This evening was a bit of a problem. We came to Poulsbo in Liberty Bay. We were hoping to get a slip at the dock but they had quit taking reservations so we figured we would take our chances.

Nice afternoon and as typical with nice summer afternoons in Liberty Bay we had a 10-12 knot breeze coming out of the North. We entered a fairway between the two guest docks looking for an open slip. The wind was blowing perpendicular to the orientation of the fairway so we slowly crabbed down looking for an open slip.

There weren’t any so we started to make a turn to port, into the wind to turn around. There is plenty of room for a back and fill turn. Unfortunately, when I went to shift into reverse, the gear control wouldn’t allow me to shift into reverse. To avoid hitting the stern of the boats in front of me I had to turn to starboard. With throttle, going in and out of forward gear, and lots of thrusters, I was able to make the turn with inches to spare. My wife wasn’t happy.

We anchored in the bay. Fortunately it has a good holding bottom and my Sarca Excel sets pretty well with just the wind to give a back down.

Anyway, I’m kind of stuck. I took apart the control at the helm and didn’t find a problem. When the ER cools down I’ll check it at the transmission.

Any suggestions? A quick check showed that the control on the bridge seems to work OK.
 
Maybe one of the fastners for the cables UNDER the control has backed out, causing obstruction to movement of the control to reverse. I replaced a broken cable a year or two ago, and there were a bunch of fastners and a neutral switch in very close proximity under there. If you can have your supervisor move the control while you look in with a light, perhaps an obstruction will be evident.

I have spare cables and tools and I am an hour out if you need me…will be monitoring email for PM.
 
When you say you were unable to shift into reverse, do you mean the gear didn't change into reverse? Or that the control wouldn't move backwards?

If the control moved, but the transmission didn't respond, my 1st guess would be at the transmission end of the cable. Either the cable came off the shifter or the cable at that end popped out of the clamp that holds the sheath or the clamp broke.

My next guess would be a similar problem at the shifter end.

If the shifter wouldn't move, I'd disconnect it from the transmission and move the transmission shifter by hand. See if the shifter is stuck or the cable. If it is the shifter, debug the transmission. If it is the cable, inspect that end and then go to the control and see if it moves freely from there.

If the problem isn't at the transmission end, the next step is to take apart the control. Can you move the cable by hand? If so, can you move the control with the cable off? Debug the control or cable. If it is the control, check carefully. You can probably find and fix a physical problem. If it is the cable, check for obvious problems and try to get it moving, but it is more likely to be a reolacenthan a repair. The length is usually stamped on the end and you can often use the old to pull through the new.

I think you have just one helm. But, if you have two, there is another layer of debugging. Many have the upper helm pushing and pulling the lower helm. If that is the case, disconnect the "upstream" set of cables to divide the problem and see which half is sticking. If the helm is selected by a lever, try selecting the other helm, and, if that doesn't help isolate the problem, go to the device that choose one and isolates the other, disconnect the lever, and then try each one by manually selecting it. If that still doesn't help, disconnect the transmission leg and try moving it by hand. Then debug from there.

Happy hunting!
 
IRENE said:
Maybe one of the fastners for the cables UNDER the control has backed out, causing obstruction to movement of the control to reverse. I replaced a broken cable a year or two ago, and there were a bunch of fastners and a neutral switch in very close proximity under there. If you can have your supervisor move the control while you look in with a light, perhaps an obstruction will be evident.



I have spare cables and tools and I am an hour out if you need me…will be monitoring email for PM.
Click to expand...


I looked under the control and it appeared fine. I could see no obstruction there. Having finished dinner, I’m going to go into the ER and see if I can see any obstruction there.
 
gkesden said:
When you say you were unable to shift into reverse, do you mean the gear didn't change into reverse? Or that the control wouldn't move backwards?
Click to expand...

The gear lever at the control would not move back into the reverse position.

If the shifter wouldn't move, I'd disconnect it from the transmission and move the transmission shifter by hand. See if the shifter is stuck or the cable. If it is the shifter, debug the transmission. If it is the cable, inspect that end and then go to the control and see if it moves freely from there.

gkesden said:
If the problem isn't at the transmission end, the next step is to take apart the control. Can you move the cable by hand? If so, can you move the control with the cable off? Debug the control or cable. If it is the control, check carefully. You can probably find and fix a physical problem. If it is the cable, check for obvious problems and try to get it moving, but it is more likely to be a reolacenthan a repair. The length is usually stamped on the end and you can often use the old to pull through the new.

I think you have just one helm. But, if you have two, there is another layer of debugging. Many have the upper helm pushing and pulling the lower helm. If that is the case, disconnect the "upstream" set of cables to divide the problem and see which half is sticking. If the helm is selected by a lever, try selecting the other helm, and, if that doesn't help isolate the problem, go to the device that choose one and isolates the other, disconnect the lever, and then try each one by manually selecting it. If that still doesn't help, disconnect the transmission leg and try moving it by hand. Then debug from there.

Happy hunting!
Click to expand...


Good suggestions. I do have an upper helm and there is no problem moving the control at that helm station.
 
So my system has two helm stations configured in tandem. A cable runs from the transmission to the flybridge control, and then another cable runs from that control to the control in the PH.

I wasn’t able to take off the control on the flybridge as it was sealed and I can’t pry the seal up while here at the boat. I also don’t want to tear it apart while anchored away from my home dock. I’ll do that when I get back.

It could be just that the cable either need to be lubricated or replaced if there isn’t a problem with where it is attached at the flybridge station. Never done that, so another adventure.
 
With two in tandem and no station selector, the upper probably pulls the lower. After the low hanging fruit in the engine room, I'd start taking apart the lower, just because it divides the problem in half.

If the transmission is okay, you can run a cable from it out the window to the upper helm and shift by pulling and pushing it and lock it with pliers. Not at all recommended or suggested.
 
gkesden said:
With two in tandem and no station selector, the upper probably pulls the lower. After the low hanging fruit in the engine room, I'd start taking apart the lower, just because it divides the problem in half.

If the transmission is okay, you can run a cable from it out the window to the upper helm and shift by pulling and pushing it and lock it with pliers. Not at all recommended or suggested.
Click to expand...



Yeah, the transmission is fine. I’m able to shift from the upper helm position which is essentially between the pilothouse and transmission and now am able to shift from the pilothouse as well but with difficult. This is what leads me to suspect it is the cable between the two controls.

One I’m safely back in my home slip, I’ll take apart the upper helm control and see if there is any binding there. Then with both the upper and lower disconnected, I can see if the cable is running smoothly.
 
Do the suggested checks.

I lost reverse while entering my shed years ago. Lucky no speed involved.

I found the clamp on the shifter had loosened so the SHEATH was moving instead of the core. I reset it all and used SMALL SCREW Locktite on the machine screws. At worst if SMALL SCREW not available use the BLUE sparingly..

I later found the sheath clamp AT the gear control was asking for a reason to goof up.

The lock which held the sheath into place was open. It was just dumb luck nothing went wrong. I wired the lock into place.

If the sheath clamps have loosened so the sheath can move shifting will become unreliable or non existent.

Check all for a loose clamp.
 
Spent the entire day working on the boat and didn’t make much progress.

It took me a long time to get the control off the flybridge. It was screwed down but a polysulfide sealant was used to seal it. It was very hard to get that control off so I could open it up. When I finally did, I was surprised to see just one cable connecting to the control for each the throttle and transmission. Since there weren’t two cables on the transmission, I expected it to be a tandem setup with two cables at the bridge control station. There weren’t.

I then started to hunt for some type of junction where the cables from the two helm stations combined to the single cable that went to the transmission. Another hour later I discovered them under the lower berth in the 2nd cabin. Unfortunately to access them I had to remove the mattress (and everything my wife had piled on that berth).

Then I found that the outboard half of the berth was covered by a single length of plywood. When the boat was built, after the wiring, plumbing, and cabling had been done, the cabin was finished out along with the berths. The plywood was screwed to the wood frame for the berth, then the whole assembly was treated with some type of lacquer finish and than was topped with a nice white gloss paint. They did a great job. The recessed screws were all but invisible. I had to find each screw, scrape off the paint and lacquer to expose the SS Phillips head wood screws, then pick out the lacquer and paint from the screw head slots so I could get a screwdriver to get a grip.

I also found that the plywood had likely been treated and laid down on the frame before the lacquer had complete set as it was stuck to the underlying frame. So far, I’ve found and removed 32 screws from that plywood and STILL haven’t been able to remove it. I need a pry bar to get it up and there may be 1 or 2 screws still hiding there. I spent 3 hours just trying to get that piece of plywood up and it isn’t done yet. Once done, I’ll have access to the junctions for the cable and can hopefully identify a reason for my problem.
 
gkesden said:
Who makes your controls? Do you have two levers per engine, or one, combining throttle and gear?
Click to expand...



Morse Controls makes then. Separate throttle and transmission levers on each station.
 
Morse controls were the industry standard for years but they used a $.10 clamp to secure the outer cable sheath so the inner shift cable could move. I lost reverse on 2 occasions when that clamp let go. Clearly not related to your problem, sounds more like a corroded cable. Good luck in the lower berth. After 3 hours I would have my sawzall out.
 
dhays said:
Spent the entire day working on the boat and didn’t make much progress.

It took me a long time to get the control off the flybridge. It was screwed down but a polysulfide sealant was used to seal it. It was very hard to get that control off so I could open it up. When I finally did, I was surprised to see just one cable connecting to the control for each the throttle and transmission. Since there weren’t two cables on the transmission, I expected it to be a tandem setup with two cables at the bridge control station. There weren’t.

I then started to hunt for some type of junction where the cables from the two helm stations combined to the single cable that went to the transmission. Another hour later I discovered them under the lower berth in the 2nd cabin. Unfortunately to access them I had to remove the mattress (and everything my wife had piled on that berth).

Then I found that the outboard half of the berth was covered by a single length of plywood. When the boat was built, after the wiring, plumbing, and cabling had been done, the cabin was finished out along with the berths. The plywood was screwed to the wood frame for the berth, then the whole assembly was treated with some type of lacquer finish and than was topped with a nice white gloss paint. They did a great job. The recessed screws were all but invisible. I had to find each screw, scrape off the paint and lacquer to expose the SS Phillips head wood screws, then pick out the lacquer and paint from the screw head slots so I could get a screwdriver to get a grip.

I also found that the plywood had likely been treated and laid down on the frame before the lacquer had complete set as it was stuck to the underlying frame. So far, I’ve found and removed 32 screws from that plywood and STILL haven’t been able to remove it. I need a pry bar to get it up and there may be 1 or 2 screws still hiding there. I spent 3 hours just trying to get that piece of plywood up and it isn’t done yet. Once done, I’ll have access to the junctions for the cable and can hopefully identify a reason for my problem.
Click to expand...

Hey Dave,

Have you sent Trevor an email on this yet? I ask because he has helped me several times now as I have been chasing issues - he comes back almost immediately with a solution.

Regardless of that, I'm keenly interested in this and following closely.

Cheers!
 
Constellation1 said:
Hey Dave,

Have you sent Trevor an email on this yet? I ask because he has helped me several times now as I have been chasing issues - he comes back almost immediately with a solution.

Regardless of that, I'm keenly interested in this and following closely.

Cheers!
Click to expand...


I've not asked him about this issue, as it just came up. I have sent him a couple emails the past couple months and haven't gotten a reply. I also notice that the Owner's Portal has been down. I hope he is doing well. He normally is extremely responsive.
 
This may not lead to your solution, but I offer a little comic relief.

One day the throttle at the lower helm had very limited range of motion. I figured to start troubleshooting at the upper helm, so removed the dash canvas and found that both throttle and shifter worked normally. Replaced the canvas and checked the lower helm. Still stuck. Crawled into the closet, started removing panels and inspected cables from helm to transmission. All normal. So that day I drove from the little used flybridge helm. It turned out that the newly crafted FB helm cover restricted the upper throttle handle. Adding a slight pocket to the canvas cured the issue.
 
Crossroads said:
This may not lead to your solution, but I offer a little comic relief.

One day the throttle at the lower helm had very limited range of motion. I figured to start troubleshooting at the upper helm, so removed the dash canvas and found that both throttle and shifter worked normally. Replaced the canvas and checked the lower helm. Still stuck. Crawled into the closet, started removing panels and inspected cables from helm to transmission. All normal. So that day I drove from the little used flybridge helm. It turned out that the newly crafted FB helm cover restricted the upper throttle handle. Adding a slight pocket to the canvas cured the issue.
Click to expand...


My canvas does have a similar pocket, but I will double check to make sure there is no restriction there anyway. With my luck, the solution will likely be something equally simple and the last thing I check. :banghead:
 
I finally got into the compartment with the cable junctions. I’ve not seen this before, but then that isn’t surprising since I’m a novice that this stuff.

I have three photos. The firsts two are photos of where the cable ends are connected. One end of this plastic rectangular piece has the transmission cable and the flybridge cable, the other end has the pilothouse cable. The connector piece is open on the top and on the ends.

This then slides into a rectangular aluminum tube and the cable sheaths are locked in place. When one of the controls is shifted, the plastic connector slides within the aluminum tube causing the other two cables to move as well.

I think part of the problem may have been that the connector was not sliding smoothly in the tube. It had had some type of grease on it, but I am unable to tell what type. I think what I need to do is lubricate the connector so it slides more easily in the tube as the cables seem to move freely themselves.

So, any suggestions on what type of grease or lube I could use for the plastic/aluminum interface? I was thinking of Superlube.

PXL_20210728_021559912.jpgPXL_20210728_021616511.jpgPXL_20210728_021642233.jpg
 
Last edited:
Just found that what is described is a dual station transfer unit
 
I suggest reading up on lubricants for plastics. Some common lubricants will deteriorate plastics.
 
HTurner said:
I suggest reading up on lubricants for plastics. Some common lubricants will deteriorate plastics.
Click to expand...



Yeah. I couldn’t find any references for the transfer units online. I ended up going with the SuperLube grease as it is good with most plastics.

Put everything back together and the shifter is much smoother from both upper and lower helm station. Not super smooth, but better than it has been for a a couple years. The cables are now over 10 years old. I am considering possibly replacing the cables from the pilothouse since they have gotten the most use. Not anytime soon however.

Now I have a huge mess to clean up in the boat.
 
Thanks for posting about / documenting this. I will put it on the list. My controls are quite stiff.
 
Constellation1 said:
Thanks for posting about / documenting this. I will put it on the list. My controls are quite stiff.
Click to expand...


Still early. I’ll see how it works going forward. If the controls are stiff, I’ would first take a look at the control end to make sure everything is good there.
 
twistedtree said:
Humm, maybe those evil electronic controls aren't so bad after all....
Click to expand...


Yeah, I was actually thinking about that. I have never had them. Despite my obsession with ropes and lines, I’m not a Luddite. I could be interested.
 
Glad that you got this resolved. Every boat is different and they all seem to be a puzzle.



Those dual station controls are very common. Although having access to them would be more common. It could be that a previous owner may had done some mods. But this will give you a chance to add an access hatch that can be easily removed without having to pull screws.

I had a guest on my 3288 once coming running up to the flybridge telling me that the controls were moving on their own in the salon. I told her that I was getting tired of those pesky ghosts. It took her a minute to catch the joke and figure it out. She was not very amused. I on the other hand was cracking up from the look on here face.

I have the MMC controls in my current boat. I love them. Single handle for throttle and shift. They also have auto sync in them when cruising. If I were to say there is one problem is that if I am at one helm and want to move, I need, or I should say I will bring everything to neutral and then go down to the other helm and push the button to transfer control to that station. In that respect, I miss the cables that allow me to take control without having to go through that.

Another feature of the electronic controls is the ability to add stations as long as you can run the wires. The cable consists of 10 wires for a dual control, although don't quote me as I am going by memory. I have four stations, PH, FB and one on each side of the cockpit. Great for docking. Only the Port side in the cockpit has a wheel and thruster controls, the other is just the dual engine/trans control.
 
Papa Charlie said:
Glad that you got this resolved. Every boat is different and they all seem to be a puzzle.

Those dual station controls are very common. Although having access to them would be more common. It could be that a previous owner may had done some mods. But this will give you a chance to add an access hatch that can be easily removed without having to pull screws.
Click to expand...


Yeah, the piece of plywood that was covering the area was put down before even the paneling on the cabin walls was installed. It is too long to even get out of the cabin. I’ll be taking my skill saw down to the boat and cut it in half. Then I’ll reinstall it with just 4 screws on each piece and in the future it will be easy to access (other than wrestling the bunk mattress out of the cabin).
 
dhays said:
Yeah, I was actually thinking about that. I have never had them. Despite my obsession with ropes and lines, I’m not a Luddite. I could be interested.
Click to expand...

haha - everything on my Whaler is fly by wire and I love it!
 
I had the same problem with shifting my Morse controls from the fly bridge. After replacing both upper helm cables, discovered the issue was worn/elongated holes formed in the brass piece that connects the cables to the shift levers. Years of shifting had made the shifter “catch” or become tough to move. Finally adjusted the new cables, a lot of tedious work, as well as another story there with help of a mechanics mistake, and learned the lesson again, look for the simple easy fixes first before making it a much larger job than needs be! I was able to sleeve the brass pivot holes and bought new cable clamps.
 
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