Broker accountability

I have been moving forward on the purchase of a trawler over the past month. I am working directly with the seller's broker. I have completed the survey, haul out, oil samples on two engines, two transmissions and generator.
I was able to take a second trip on the boat to get some hours on the engines prior to a second oil sample being taken (first oil sample came back questionable) After the trip, I realized the hour meter had not moved. I brought this issue to the broker's attention. He said there was an extra 200 hours on the meters and that the owner was keeping track of them. He also said he thought he told me. I told him that I had not been told and that his add indicates the lower number of hours and does not mention any discrepancy.
I do not think I would have moved on the boat if I had known the hour meters were not accurate. A broken hour meter seems like a pretty major item for a broker to reveal. I feel like I have been deceived and have shelled out a large chunk of money that would still be in my account if I had been given the full story. What accountability does the broker have?

I can't answer the legal question.

But, as a practical matter, unless it is a relatively new boat, or engine or has had very few owners and the most recent one for a long time, I don't believe the meter anyway. There are a million ways they could be wrong.

I'd be curious forbthe broker's story about how the hours meters came to have too many hours. I have one like that-- I replaced an engine. And, I have the receipts to prove it.

If the owner can provide a log book for their time of ownership, that might put your mind more at ease, perhaps. Ask the broker?

Ultimately, unless this is a relatively new boat, or was supposed to be a super new engine, if you want the boat and all.seems good by inspection and trial, get your ounce of blood out of the price if you can, and enjoy the boat. I think.

In practice, none. Even the printed Ads all have disclaimers about accuracy, etc. In my experience, most brokers are sloppy and careless with details in the beat case, and scum otherwise. If you really think you can show he intentionally deceived you you might be able to go to small claims and recover you costs.

My opinion is that the broker is a facilitator only and the buyer needs to do their due diligence.

As indicated above hour meters mean nothing. Hour meters are cheap, and get replaced from time to time on many bopats for a variety of reasons, not all dubious in nature.

200 hours is also a big nothing.

In my log I have a note that I once left the ignition key on, on one engine, and it reads 19 hours higher than it should as a result.
S*** happens.

twistedtree said:

In my experience, most brokers are sloppy and careless with details in the beat case, and scum otherwise.

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A good summary.

Here, you have two red flags: a broken (or unplugged) hour meter and a questionable oil sample. I'd ask for bulletproof documentation explaining both issues, or discount the price by a repower.

On a diesel engine 200 hours are a rounding error. On a gas engine it would be more important. Hour meters are just a possible indication of the engine hours. I would never put much faith in them unless the boat was almost new.

But,are the unrecorded hours really 200? They both stopped working the same time? Odd. I always look at hours, and discrepancy between twins. It can indicate one was unserviceable for a time,I`d want to know why.

Whether the broker disclosed it is a question of fact, if not it`s a misrepresentation, or worse, by silence. If he can state the hours in the advert he can disclose the hours are 200 hours low.
I don`t think defective hour meters are a big item, but what they don`t reveal could be. As the owner is "keeping track of them' ask for the records, look at whether they were created all at one time, like different pens, ink color, where/how they were kept, etc. Ie.are they a true contemporaneous record or produced to satisfy you?

Failure to disclose is a red flag. What else is being swept under the rug? Your claim for costs might be bolstered by the lack of disclosure in the ad.

Reducing the price for repower might help.

Look at the bright side - you now have a bunch more leverage as a buyer. And I wouldn't believe for a second that the hours discrepancy is 200hr. It could be anything. And the meters failed on both engines at the same time? How many hours are supposedly on the engines, with or without the extra 200? You can also disregard anything that the broker has told you about the boat. Assume it is all BS, which is probably a good assumption going into any deal anyway.

Most brokers, not all, are full of s**t. We just had one screw us on buying a boat.

Seems to me most of you are misreading the meters. My read is they are higher than actual hours.

Andrewc; said:

He said there was an extra 200 hours on the meters and that the owner was keeping track of them.

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Andrew, if you are looking for a way out of the sale, you have it. If not, you have a pocket full of bargaining chips.

The broker has very little accountability. Only if he committed fraud in some way would he be accountable and with all the disclaimers, clearly none here. Now, he also represents only the seller in this situation, serving as his agent. One more bit of information. Unless in Florida or California the broker is not subject to any licensing.

As to the hour meter, should be picked up in a survey if not working as well as if any maintenance records or logs were provided. Otherwise, the reality is you're buying a boat with completely unknown hours, always were, even if hour meter was working today. Again, no regulations like odometer reporting on cars.

As to the truth of what you're being told, does the ad show more hours than the hour meter? If not, the seller lied and by how much you still have no idea. But then I hope you didn't assume everything in the ad was the truth. That would be dangerous.

comodave said:

[strike]most [/strike]brokers, [strike]not all[/strike], are full of s**t. We just had one screw us on buying a boat.

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fify

I guess I would just write it off as a misunderstanding at this point but I would surely check the owners log or ship log.

If you are looking for something from the broker, forget it. They are like realtors or used car salesmen, slimey!

pete

Sounds like a good reason to have your own broker.

Some very good points made. Unless you hire a buyer’s broker, the broker works for the seller. Brokers are often sloppy and lazy so just assume they all are and verify everything. Hour meters can never be trusted so ask for the maintenance logs. While I don’t keep the prettiest logs you can see dates and engine hours of all my oil changes and zinc changes as well as repairs. This is at least some level of proof that maintenance and tracking is being performed.

I know you feel cheated, you have money spent only at the last minute to find you have been deceived. Was this on purpose? Possibly! Let’s look at it this way, If you have been deceived, better to walk from a little money than to buy and spend a fortune.

Before you walk, ask your self, does everything add up. In other words, by the little you have told me I have a mental image of a boat that is tired in all areas and was the lowest priced boat in its class. If this is the case then the story seems to be adding up. If this is a nice looking well kept boat that oddly has non working hour meters and poor oil sample, we’ll that doesn’t add up and I suspect the worst.

Run away from this deal quick. Find a good BUYERS broker, and begin again. A buyers broker won't cost you anything. They split the commission with the selling broker.

BruceK said:

But,are the unrecorded hours really 200?

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Bingo. He's shady already, why stop at the number.

Get everything in writing, signed by the seller and broker. When asking for this, see who squirms, tries to dodge, or has excuses why they can't/won't sign.


In this case, add an addendum to the purchase contract that says the "seller and broker acknowledge the hour meter is broke and is inaccurate by 200 hrs."

I would trust logs, if they exist, before trusting an hour meter. If the engine surveys are fine, I personally would not let this stop the sale.

I bought a Cape Dory with the same problem. Much smaller investment, but faced the same concern. After completing the purchase, I bought a new hour meter and hooked it to a battery in my basement until it ran up to the right number, and then installed it.

Also, anyone who deliberately disconnects hour meters to hide 200 hours on diesels, is doing it wrong. It would be counterproductive.

If you elect to go forward in the sale, buy a new meter, make a note in the log, the hours on the current meter and a statement that the broker said 'add 200 hours' and get the current owner and broker to sign it.
Or perhaps better in the maintenance log. Seems we keep the maintenance up to date and pass it on to the next owner.
When I owned my N46, during a survey, it was pointed out, the 'get home' did not have an hour meter. He suggested I install one but also pointed out, it was not required. I never did install one.

Tom.B said:

fify

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I'm sure the brokers who volunteer their advice and expertise on this forum might disagree, as do I, who have been treated right by one who was very detail oriented.

That said, I have spoken to a few sellers brokers who were very scattered and distracted and mostly couldn't keep which boat I was inquiring about straight in their mind though I haven't caught anyone in a lie or even significant exaggeration yet. I imagine they have to deal with dozens of "tire kickers" for every one serious buyer.

Rossland said:

Run away from this deal quick. Find a good BUYERS broker, and begin again. A buyers broker won't cost you anything. They split the commission with the selling broker.

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I don't get how a buyers broker would make any difference in this situation.

Please forgive me if I seem nasty. Below is just my opinion based upon experience.

I suggest, everyone 'in the business' are many times more concerned about the next sale or referral.
IMO, I think brokers and surveyors are all related and too much 'honesty' will hamper your relationship with the group.

Everything with a grain of salt.

twistedtree said:

I don't get how a buyers broker would make any difference in this situation.

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A conscientious buyers broker will steer the buyer away from junk boats, boats that are not suitable for what the buyer wants to use them for, and most important, boats that are being misrepresented. And since it doesn't cost the buyer anything, why wouldn't you use one?

I am aware that the OP has spent some money already, but a questionable oil analysis, plus a misrepresentation as to the engine hours is reason to walk while he can. There are lots of honest boat brokers. It is never necessary to deal with someone who can't be trusted.

Rossland said:

A conscientious buyers broker will steer the buyer away from junk boats, boats that are not suitable for what the buyer wants to use them for, and most important, boats that are being misrepresented. And since it doesn't cost the buyer anything, why wouldn't you use one?

I am aware that the OP has spent some money already, but a questionable oil analysis, plus a misrepresentation as to the engine hours is reason to walk while he can. There are lots of honest boat brokers. It is never necessary to deal with someone who can't be trusted.

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Well, the better practice is to never blindly trust a seller or their representations. Trust the surveyor, the fluid analysis, any maintenance records you get. Trust EMC but don't trust traditional hour meters. This is why you survey. The oil analysis and engine survey would concern me. I'd accept I have no idea how many hours it has. Now, if there were no maintenance records or logs, that would concern me as well and I'd try to get access to those who have previously worked on it.

Wile I am a big supporter of using a buyer’s broker, I would like to point a few things out. The brokers I trust provide a detailed service. This level of service requires time and effort. They need to make a living. It doesn’t matter if it’s a $25,000 boat or a $500,000 boat, it’s the same amount of work. My guys can’t make a living representing a client who is buying a sub $100,000 boat. If you are in the market for a sub $100,000 boat it might be a challenge to find a good buyers broker. Things are not much different on the selling side. I have a long time acquaintance who sells $50,000 boats. He can’t afford to spend much effort on a sale and needs to push volume to make a living. I’ve suggested that he should try to do fewer deals but better quality deals, he just isn’t that good at the job and he is forever stuck pushing volume to earn a living. Sadly, he is more the norm.

Some clarification. this is a 100k plus boat. The meters are reading 976 and 945. The owner supposedly has a log of the hours since his ownership but is not willing to hand over the log. I asked what were the number of hours listed on the survey done by the current owner when he purchased the boat and was told the hours were the same, 976 and 945. This obviously indicates that the the meters have been inoperable for quite some time. Even if the current owner is honest/correct in his 200 hour usage during his ownership, it is still unknown how many hours were on it prior to his purchase. The boat is clean, good looking and one of the few boats my wife and I could agree on. I don't expect the broker to point out issues with the boat, but knowing that the hour meter has not been working for quite some time seems like a point that would be passed on to potential buyers