44lb Bruce is too much...

So apparently the 44lb Bruce anchor I have is too much for my windlass.

I recently rebuilt the Powerwinch class 41’ free fall windlass because I had stripped the internal locking gear. After that it still wouldn’t pull the anchor up so I thought it might have been a battery voltage thing. Well
Now we have two new house batteries that are brand new and fully charged and it still won’t pull the anchor in.

The class 41 powerwinch is supposed to have 900lbs of power but this won’t even lift it off the bottom.

Thoughts?

It's NOT the anchor's weight that is the problem.

Well now I’m wondering if I burned up the motor at the same time I stripped the gears. I have no idea what else could be the problem.

Did you try to lift the anchor or unset it?
I don't know what is the bottom where you are but where I am the bottom thick clay/mud would burn my capstan if I would try to unset the anchor with it.

L

Yeah, even when I picked it up out of the mud by hand it still struggled to reel it in. It finally got the anchor out the water but didn’t have enough power to pull it over the roller.

toocoys said:

Well now I’m wondering if I burned up the motor at the same time I stripped the gears. I have no idea what else could be the problem.

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I don't want to spend your money but it never made sense to mess around with those less expensive windlass at $650

https://www.anchorexpress.com/power...efall Windlass 900 LB Pull - P77741 | $595.99

Do you have chain on the rode? Also windlass ratings are supposed to be derated about 3 times, check the manufacturers specs. If it is rated at 900 pounds it probably should only pull about 200 to 300 pounds.

ofer said:

I don't want to spend your money but it never made sense to mess around with those less expensive windlass at $650

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It was installed on the boat when we bought it.

toocoys said:

It was installed on the boat when we bought it.

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That doesn’t mean it is a good windlass for your needs. It may mean it was the most economical, read cheapest, windlass for the manufacturer. You need to look at the overall weight of the entire anchor system, anchor and rode, then determine which windlass fits that system. You have to derate the windlass. Check the manufacturers specs. Also never use the windlass to break the anchor free, cleat it off as short as possible and then use the engines to break it free and then use the windlass to recover the anchor. The load put onto the windlass trying to break the anchor free can be tremendous.

If/when I choose to replace what’s already here, I’ll take all of that into account.

But for now I’m trying to figure out why this thing can’t hoist a 44lb anchor from the water line to the now without quitting.

You mentioned that you rebuilt the windlass because of a worn out gear. Are you sure you put it back properly? (just checking the most obvious first)
Then the question would be why would you have worn out the gear? Was it pulling the anchor at that time? Is it properly sized for your boat, meaning lift capacity? Anchor is one thing but chain add to weight too. If you try to lift a 44lbs anchor hanging to 200 feet of chain this is another story. Even if it was on the boat this does not mean it was ever working!

L

Try turning off your battery chargers, solar, etc, putting a volt meter directly on the windless connections, and operating the windlass for 3-5 seconds under no or light load.

-- See what the voltage measures before, during, and immediately after the brief load test.
-- Check the voltage at the battery immediately before and after the load test.

-- See if there is a significant voltage drop between the battery and the windlass.
-- And, also see if the voltage falls off really quickly with minimal use.

One goal is to demonstrate that it isn't a battery problem by making sure that the chargers don't mask it before you can find it (I know you said they are new, but one could be bad, happened to me).

Another goal is to demonstrate that it isn't a wiring or connection problem by being sure there is no voltage drop.

If it is demonstrated that it is neither, I'd take the motor out and to a local electrical shop. They will often test them for nothing or a very nominal fee. Some repairs may be more expensive than others, e.g. rewinding the motor vs resoldering a bad connection. But, once they tell you what is up, you can decide to get it fixed, replace it, or look for a new windlass.

I have never used one of those windlasses. I was going to get one without thinking too much about it because the makers of my bow pulpit deal in them. But, the reviews I read really weren't good, so I decided to go to the other end of the spectrum with a Lofrans Tigres.

A friend had some problems with his windlass. He brought it to a local shop and they charged him $100 to fix some internal connections that were apparently problematic. So, there is hope of an inexpensive fix in that space, I just don't know how common it is.

I don't me to be down talking your windlass. As I mentioned, I've never had one. Instead, I just intend to suggest a way to isolate the problem to the battery, wiring or windlass, and go from there.

I think it unlikely that it is gearing, unless you hear it slipping. But, you could always take it apart and look for any signs.

Happy hunting!

Yes. Two years ago we took the boat out and anchored for 4th of July fireworks. When we went to leave the anchor was either dig so deep in the mud it would not unstick, or it was wrapped around something submerged. After trying the windlass, manual pulling, and maneuvering the boat in a circle, it wouldn’t budge. I finally cut the rope.

I think that heavy pulling was what stripped out the threads on the gear.

I ordered replacement parts and replaced them according to the mfg’s diagrams. Now it will pull the rope in the way it should but once there’s even the slightest tension on the rope the motor will run out of steam. Sort of like a cordless drill does when it’s almost out of juice, or when the screw is too tight and it won’t go anymore.

It just kind of whirrrr’s and then stops.

toocoys said:

If/when I choose to replace what’s already here, I’ll take all of that into account.

But for now I’m trying to figure out why this thing can’t hoist a 44lb anchor from the water line to the now without quitting.

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You clearly need to involve a marine electrician to check the whole thing out. Ok, a pain to demount and take it in, but there is something seriously wrong, either with the gearing, or the windings/brushes, etc, as virtually any working winch should lift an anchor only weighing 44 pounds.

Presuming, that is, that full amps are being delivered to the winch..? The anchor switch just activates a much heavier duty switch to actually connect battery power. Are you sure the switching set-up is operating correctly. Make sure of that before going to the trouble of demounting the winch for diagnosis.

Maybe, better still - engage an electrician prepared to come to the boat..?

If there's a free fall clutch and it is tight, the motor could be toast. Even the wimpiest windlass should handle 44 lbs and a few more of chain. Assuming all electrical connections and voltage is good.

Many windlass motors are rebranded or similar to starter motors, so an alternator/starter rebuild shop can maybe help. One rebuilt my old windlass motor once, then another 5 years later said it was no longer economical to rebuild.

Greetings,
Mr. t. 44lb Bruce? That's a lot of Bruces...

Peter B said:

,

Presuming, that is, that full amps are being delivered to the winch..? The anchor switch just activates a much heavier duty switch to actually connect battery power. Are you sure the switching set-up is operating correctly. Make sure of that before going to the trouble of demounting the winch for diagnosis.

Maybe, better still - engage an electrician prepared to come to the boat..?

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Step up switch... now there’s something I didn’t know. I’m going to have to trace wires tomorrow I guess.

Once I’ve gone through everything I can possibly fathom, I’ll call the electrician in. Quite honestly, I’m not even sure where power is being pulled from. I assumed it was from the house load, but it could be attached to my engines starter batteries.

...or just replace the windlass with a quality one.

toocoys said:

Step up switch... now there’s something I didn’t know. I’m going to have to trace wires tomorrow I guess.

Once I’ve gone through everything I can possibly fathom, I’ll call the electrician in. Quite honestly, I’m not even sure where power is being pulled from. I assumed it was from the house load, but it could be attached to my engines starter batteries.

...or just replace the windlass with a quality one.

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Replacement should be the last choice.

They draw lots of Amps, the Muir on my last boat drew 120A after motor rebuild and promptly fried the ammeter.
Are you running engines while you (attempt) retrieve? Anchor mfrs usually advise it.
Sounds like bad connections or a defective motor to me.

RT Firefly said:

Greetings,
Mr. t. 44lb Bruce? That's a lot of Bruces...

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Lol this is a good one [emoji3]

L

toocoys said:

...or just replace the windlass with a quality one.

Click to expand...

Unless you were already intending to replace the windlass anyway, I wouldn't replace the windlass until ruling out an electrical problem. Imagine paying ~$1500 - $3000 for a windlass, going through all of the trouble to disconnect and remove the old one and to install and connect the new one...and having it not work, just the same.

I've been in that day more times than I'd like to admit. It is a very sad and frustrating day. And then, the next few times something breaks and I end up draining down the bank account more than I'd like, I still kick myself, because I wish I had the money -- versus the working but older spare part in the locker.

I've learned that I should debug things as fully as possible before replacing anything. A look at my maintenance logs will show that I put that lesson into practice more often now than in the past, but, well, not always :-(

Is there any chance you are only supplying 12 volts to a 24 volt winch?

Ted

Peter B said:

You clearly need to involve a marine electrician to check the whole thing out. Ok, a pain to demount and take it in, but there is something seriously wrong, either with the gearing, or the windings/brushes, etc, as virtually any working winch should lift an anchor only weighing 44 pounds.

Presuming, that is, that full amps are being delivered to the winch..? The anchor switch just activates a much heavier duty switch to actually connect battery power. Are you sure the switching set-up is operating correctly. Make sure of that before going to the trouble of demounting the winch for diagnosis.

Maybe, better still - engage an electrician prepared to come to the boat..?

Click to expand...

If you have an automotive parts store, NAPA or similar, nearby, take the motor in and have them deal with it. They will send it out to a shop that does starter, alternators, etc. There the tech guys will determine exactly what it needs and give it enough love to get it going again.

Mine was behaving like yours a couple of years ago. I took into our local "Bumper to bumper" store. when I got it back the comment from the rebuilder was "this windlass motor has been abused". I disagree. All windlass motors need to be able to lift whatever the anchor has snagged. Yes, mine had to do Yoeman service at times. Once it raised to the surface a trailer, the kind you would put a car on behind your motorhome. I don't consider that abuse, just normal use. It got re-wound and is now good as new.

Good luck with it.

Well, that’s good news.

Barring no electrical issues, a replacement motor is only $64.
https://www.tesstools.net/R001434_REPLACEMENT_MOTOR_KIT_p/r001434.htm

And according to the manual there’s a 25a breaker. I would assume that if it’s tripped or burnt nothing would work at all, but what do I know? I guess I’ll be doing boat yoga in the morning for sure!

I don't know that windlass but you can eliminate some of the potential issues by measuring your voltage (and ideally current as well) at the windlass when you operate it. If you see a large voltage drop without much current being drawn you know there's a wiring issue on your boat. If the voltage doesn't drop much it's something inside your windlass that's the issue. Same if you see a big current draw despite the minimal weight being lifted.

You might be able to find some actual numbers for the above by looking through the unit manual or specifications. I could make some guesses, but hard without understanding your full system.

toocoys said:

Now it will pull the rope in the way it should but once there’s even the slightest tension on the rope the motor will run out of steam. Sort of like a cordless drill does when it’s almost out of juice, or when the screw is too tight and it won’t go anymore.

It just kind of whirrrr’s and then stops.

Click to expand...

If your motor isn't thermally protected, you may well have overheated, and thereby damaged, the motor by shorting some of its internal windings.

toocoys said:

Well, that’s good news.

Barring no electrical issues, a replacement motor is only $64.
https://www.tesstools.net/R001434_REPLACEMENT_MOTOR_KIT_p/r001434.htm

Click to expand...

Therin lies your problem. You will only have 1/2 the power you need, with only 450 watts and a 44# anchor.
Yes, I know that has lasted till now, But you should really consider getting a more robust windlass.

Curious. That's half the maximum wattage I'd expect from a 900lbs pull. They must have it geared to pull slowly or something.

koliver said:

Therin lies your problem. You will only have 1/2 the power you need, with only 450 watts and a 44# anchor.
Yes, I know that has lasted till now, But you should really consider getting a more robust windlass.

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I am curious about the math on that. By my calculations, 450 watts is about .6 horse power, which is 330 foot pounds per second. Assuming that only 1/3 of that is available to lift the anchor (a very conservative assumption, I hope), then 450 watts should be enough power to lift a 44 pound anchor at 2.5 feet per second. That sounds plenty fast to me.

MYTraveler said:

I am curious about the math on that. By my calculations, 450 watts is about .6 horse power, which is 330 foot pounds per second. Assuming that only 1/3 of that is available to lift the anchor (a very conservative assumption, I hope), then 450 watts should be enough power to lift a 44 pound anchor at 2.5 feet per second. That sounds plenty fast to me.

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I agree with you about the math. I posted a thread about that here a while back. The concensus seemed to be *shrugs*. Everyone basically felt from years if experience that this class of windlass should be 900+W, which was in line with the tables from the major long-time manufacturers.

Plenty of folks have burned up windlasses and have the scars to show, so I'm inclined to believe that my mental mathematical model is wrong vs their experience.

I ultimately decided that windlass wattage and amp ratings go into the same category as bilge pump ratings. And, intjink none of us expect 1000 gallons per hour from a tiny bilge pump, at least in practice.

I guess I've come to the model that a windlass's amp/wattage rating is descriptive of its ability for a very short pull, but that a higher rating also.means the ability to operate cooler or shed heat better, and thereby lastonger in real world use, even if the rating doesn't directly or quantitatively describe this property.

If a motor has half the amp/wattage rating of competitors marketed for the same class of boat, while using the same basic type if.motor, and the competitor's ratingbhas been proven by years of experience, I am just guessing that the seemingly oversold windlass is either oversold - or has compensated in some other way, or a little of each.

Ok I got out and disconnected the windlass. And wrapped the wires around the leads of my very ancient and donated voltmeter.

When set on DC25, I was getting 12v steady.

When set to DC A 50u, it pegged, and then dropped back to zero almost immediately. But I’m not sure I’m using this thing right, or if it’s even proper.

So I’m wondering if this thing is bad. It’s either a relay module or a 25A circuit breaker.

ETA: according to mfg's parts list, this this is a "dual reversing solenoid"