Glassing Over Through Hulls

tribologist said:

I cant imagine why anyone would follow west systems approach...

Click to expand...

Yeah, what do they know

Frosty said:

Yeah, what do they know

Click to expand...

They know enough for me to listen.

Comodave said:

They know enough for me to listen.

Click to expand...

I was being ironic, just for the record (I posted the WEST page excerpt above).

Less time worrying more time boating . Fussing over every little detail just the exact right technique for Painting showing that trophy off set it up on the shelf and admire it knowing that you did everything exactly the way you were supposed to look at me

Frosty said:

I was being ironic, just for the record (I posted the WEST page excerpt above).

Click to expand...

I caught that and was agreeing…

I did bigger to smaller on the outside of the hull scarf and smaller to bigger on the inside of the hull scarf using west system epoxy. Mainly because I didn't want to fair the inner side of the patch.

I made a scarf gage out of scrap wood to ensure I was at least 12:1

Making a backing plate with a matching 12:1 scarf helped when doing a proper two sided repair.

Frosty said:

Yeah, what do they know

Click to expand...

They know marketing very well…. ,they are good at aggressive pricing too. Lol. I love the magazine and i have their epoxy and fillers around. Very rarely do i use it on the boats unless my polyester is old. It seems like epoxy last forever but it also takes forever to work with the stuff…. Polyester is so much faster to work with and to be able to use csm is another benefit.

tribologist said:

Very rarely do i use it on the boats unless my polyester is old. It seems like epoxy last forever but it also takes forever to work with the stuff….

Click to expand...

Time can definitely be a consideration. For my projects, I usually have a few irons in the fire (so if parts are delayed or etc. I can pivot and keep on working); so it's not a problem (that's not to say I've never had a 3 a.m. "green stage alarm" set ).

OTOH, at a yard, where you are billing customers by the minute (and where you may have to drag people/materials some distance to get to the boat), quicker curing can be a big plus.

What I'm not so excited about is the lesser secondary (mechanical) bond. I'm rarely building something from scratch but rather am doing things like the OP asked about (repairs, adding something, closing out a through hull). So I think if I needed to be super quick, I'd use Vinylester. From what I understand it is more like epoxy in forming excellent secondary bonds. (I can't stand the smell of the -esters though, so I still tend to stick with epoxy.)

*******
One situation really made WEST stand out in my mind: I was using a different "good marine" brand of epoxy and had an odd failure. I contacted the company to see if they'd help me suss it out, and they kind of blew me off. I then called WEST and said, okay, I wasn't even using your epoxy brand, but would you be able to noodle an issue with me to try to figure it out? Yep, no problem (and we did figure it out). I have to say, that impressed me.

If I were building a boat I'd probably have to pay more attention to the fact that WEST costs more; but the volume I use is smaller than that so it's not such a thing for me. I also like that if I plan poorly and run out, there is a chance I can find some locally.

But that said, I've used many brands. I used to favor the ones with a smaller mix ratio so I could just use cups. (Now I have a scale.) So I'm not exclusively a WEST "fanboy." I do like their manual and recommend it for anyone who is starting out, regardless of epoxy brand they use (it's free).

tribologist said:

Polyester is so much faster to work with and to be able to use csm is another benefit.

Click to expand...

I don't know if this is technically CSM, but you can use mat with epoxy. It just has to be something like stitch mat, at least as I understand it (so no binder that doesn't play well with epoxy). I've used biaxmat many times with two or three brands of epoxy (eg Biaxmat 1708).

Maybe you are talking about some other type of mat though - I only mention it as it was confusing to me at first because I had heard the "don't use mat with epoxy" but then people were using biaxmat.

Frosty said:

Time can definitely be a consideration. For my projects, I usually have a few irons in the fire (so if parts a

I don't know if this is technically CSM, but you can use mat with epoxy. It just has to be something like stitch mat, at least as I understand it (so no binder that doesn't play well with epoxy).


Maybe you are talking about some other type of mat though - I only mention it as it was confusing to me at first because I had heard the "don't use mat with epoxy" but then people were using biaxmat.

Click to expand...

Yepp. Total agreement. I ment resin bonded american (chinese) chop strand mat. Supposedly the mat on 1708 is stitched in place and it wets out nice with epoxy, not as quick as with ISO ester but.. The other times i use epoxy is everything in the garage.. total polyester ban in garage. I get yelled at even if i open a can of hull and deck putty…. And epoxy is there when i need it. Does it ever go bad? Someone gave me a gallon of system 3. Thats possibly 10-15 years old. More than 10 years for sure and it still set and feels fine. I would not use polyester from last season. Another thing thats terrible to use old is expanding foam. I had some old foam at home that was about 6 years old and for curiosity i mixed a few oz last week and was amazed over that it expanded and cured. Tossed it in the waste after it had set and thought ” great! Still good! Not so.. yesterday i looked in the trash and saw it had shrunken to maybe 50% of what it was when fully expanded….

I use 1708 with epoxy all the time and since it is stitched the mat does wet out fine with the epoxy. The binder in regular CSM does not wet out well with epoxy but I have done it several times and it went ok. Just much more difficult to wet out.

I'll use 1708 tape to tab in with and then just use 17oz biaxial as it drapes nicely and don't have to deal with the chopped hairs that tend to pull out on subsequent layers. I find that regular 1708 cloth tends to fall apart, but maybe I just work it too much.

Northern Spy said:

I'll use 1708 tape to tab in with and then just use 17oz biaxial as it drapes nicely and don't have to deal with the chopped hairs that tend to pull out on subsequent layers.

Click to expand...

I also use "plain" biax tape quite often (no mat). Agree it's pleasant to work with. I like the Episize 4" quite a bit (if one can "like" fiberglass )

Northern Spy said:

I'll use 1708 tape to tab in with and then just use 17oz biaxial as it drapes nicely and don't have to deal with the chopped hairs that tend to pull out on subsequent layers. I find that regular 1708 cloth tends to fall apart, but maybe I just work it too much.

Click to expand...

. Sometimes that is a nice feature. Even on the worst day, 1708 is way less messy than regular mat. I had a task patching 18 smaller holes in a panel a month ago and i just cut a bunch of patches, ruffled them a little to make them less defined. Then i just stick them to the side of the mixing cup and pick them up with a brush a patch at a time. Never touched anything with my hands. Not sure these images works. This was not Structural but 2-3 layer biax capped the hole underneath. I had a 1:2-1:4 bevel on top, filled with hull and deck putty using a syringe and then gelcoat. That beige albin color was hard to match starting with white gelcoat….

Hopefully these dropbox images comes through

Trying,, sorry for the last one being upside down. The take home is reallt the awesomeness of 1708 allowing you to work without looking like a chia pet . I would start with up to a dozen patches on the wall of the cup and wet them all out in the cup before putting them in place using the brush. That way i’m not getting resin everywhere either.

Scooby5959 said:

As far as a peal and ply goes I am not familiar with it other than I know what it is . are you supposed to use it On every layer if so that creates a lot of expense and trash it wouldn’t be for me if it’s just used on the last layer I could possibly see the value of it anyways I’m not an expert in epoxy by any means but my wager stands

Click to expand...

Peel ply is very cheap. You only use it on the last layer in a wet layup. It will hold the edges and all the fuzz down so that when peeled off the patch is smooth. Often if carefully done, this eliminates the need for any finishing, but in any case makes finishing or subsequent layers easier and better. Not sure how it works with polyester.