Wynns’ Search for Electric Tender

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Getting back to the dinghy selection, as was earlier stated, I agree it will all be about recharging the tender. If their solar is enough, then it will be a great system. But when they have to use the engines to recharge, it's worse than just using a engine to directly power the boat in the first place. So you really want solar to cover all your needs 90%+ of the time.



The make or break will be all about their propulsion needs, and how much it exceeds house power use. They will have a 40kwh battery bank and 5kw of solar. Let's say the solar actually yields 4kw for 4hrs each day, so 16kwh. That's plenty of power for house use, but when used for propulsion they will draw the batteries down a lot. In that case it will take 2-3 days to recharge, assuming mild house loads.


Now add in the tender. Their goal is a 20 kt tender with 20 miles of range, if I remember correctly. That will be 20-30kwh for such a trip, and require around the same 2-3 days to recharge. And that's in addition to whatever time it takes to top off the main boat's battery bank.


So if you use the electric propulsion in the main boat, anchor, then go for a tender trip, you are looking at 4-5 days at anchor to get everything recharged. If that fits their cruising style, then it could work well.


Now these are all very rough estimates, but I think it puts it in perspective for real operation. Yes, they have lots of off-grid living and solar experience, but it's all with house loads. Propulsion is an order of magnitude more power, and changes things considerably.
My sense is they have selected the catamaran as one with exceptional sailing abilities to minimize dependence on propulsion. Plus they specified diesel-electric which, while having a checkered history in recreational marine applications, just might make sense for their application - of recharge/top-off.

The OC Tender rigid dinghy is an impressive boat. Had it not been for outrageous shipping costs, I may have gone with it instead of the AB RIB I ended up with. For better or worse, the OC has a flatter bottom and planes easily. That said, if their design requirement is 4 people and 20-kts with 20-nm range, hard to imagine carrying enough batteries. 2-persons with dive gear with 10-nm range at 15-20 kts night be feasible. Time will tell on that one.

Peter
 
My sense is they have selected the catamaran as one with exceptional sailing abilities to minimize dependence on propulsion. Plus they specified diesel-electric which, while having a checkered history in recreational marine applications, just might make sense for their application - of recharge/top-off.


I think success with such a boat is all about how much you can use sail and solar vs how much you need to motor. If you end up motoring, whether to charge batteries or to directly propel the boat, just as much or close to as much as with a conventional drive, then I think you have actually created a less eco boat, not a more eco boat. Assuming this new boat can sail just as much as the last one, being more eco will be all about how much they can realistically apply solar to propulsion. Their solar, assuming 4kw equivalent output for 4hrs per day, and 1/4 for house loads and 3/4 of it available for propulsion, is equivalent to about a 4 hp motor running for 4 hrs per day. I have no idea what the typical hp & hours usage is for sail boats, but just anecdotally I seem to see them motoring as much or more than I see them sailing. My guess is that 4hp for 4 hours is a small percentage of typical propulsion needs, but I don't really know.


I think their power plant is probably as good an approach as any, but if it were me I'd be very concerned about reliability, spares, service, etc., especially given their more remote cruising. There is lots that can be done to mitigate, so that would be my focus.


The OC Tender rigid dinghy is an impressive boat. Had it not been for outrageous shipping costs, I may have gone with it instead of the AB RIB I ended up with. For better or worse, the OC has a flatter bottom and planes easily. That said, if their design requirement is 4 people and 20-kts with 20-nm range, hard to imagine carrying enough batteries. 2-persons with dive gear with 10-nm range at 15-20 kts night be feasible. Time will tell on that one.

Peter


I think that design target will be very hard to meet, though the OC comes the closest. But the closer they come to meeting the boat's operational target, the further way they get from what I expect is an acceptable charging solution. I think an electric tender is a good fit if your use is short, slow runs like taking Fido to shore for a pee a couple of times a day. But for exploring by tender, as the Winns understandably want to do, speed and range are very desirable, hence their requirements. But you also run smack into the realities of the power/energy required to do that.


I'd argue that if you want a tender that will do 40kwh worth of exploring in a day, you need 40kwh per day of solar available for recharging. In other words, 1 day to recharge. Assuming 4hrs of equivalent full sun, that's a 10kw array just for the tender. And that would really end up allowing you to only use the tender every other day, with the off-day for charging. Same for boat propulsion, so add another 40kw or perhaps 80kw array to really be covering your propulsion energy needs. That's 10x what they have if you really want to run off solar. It also suggests that their system will only take a 10% bite out of what would otherwise be all diesel propulsion. That sounds very borderline to me, considering the conversion losses. If that's the case, what the solar is really doing is offsetting the loss of efficiency in the hybrid system. So you made the system less efficiency by 10%, then add solar to bring it back to zero. That's not progress. But once again, I'm just spitballing numbers. What would be really interesting is to see good, hard, objective data from someone operating like this.
 
I thought they needed two outboards, 1 electric for short ship to shore trips and one gas for their longer runs where they need speed and power. The hassle of switching outboards would probably tank this approach. Maybe an electric motor in a small form factor could share the transom space like a kicker motor on a small fishing boat.
 
.....But once again, I'm just spitballing numbers. What would be really interesting is to see good, hard, objective data from someone operating like this.

I haven't watched the Wynn's in a couple years (his insipid smile wears thin for me). But I did watch the last couple episodes - clearly their YouTube influence grants special deals. So the upside of these YouTube channels is there will soon be someone operating like this to generate at least one data point. A couple years ago Jimmy Cornell attempted to put together an all-electric catamaran but I guess it didn't get out of the gate.

Given the fragmentation of the boat industry, hard for one builder to take the full-on plunge. Combination of a YouTube channel and a solid builder just might pull it off. As TT says, key is ability and willingness to sail.

As far as spitballing numbers, I googled BTU to Watt conversion. A gallon of gasoline has about 35kw of power. Maybe it's less efficient so an electric OB would take less, but still, it's a helluva lot of solar watts to generat, capture, and store. The only thing I can see in favor of solar OB for an off-grid cruiser would be while making battery power may be slow, making gasoline is impossible. I wish them well and I do appreciate the amount information they've given the RV and Cruising communities over the years. I realize they make a good income now, but when they started, the numbers weren't there.

TT, your numbers are close enough for me.

Peter
 
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As far as spitballing numbers, I googled BTU to Watt conversion. A gallon of gasoline has about 35kw of power. Maybe it's less efficient so an electric OB would take less, but still, it's a helluva lot of solar watts to generat, capture, and store.

Peter


The numbers for "usable" power from gas or a diesel is a little less favorable once you burn the fuel and turn it into propulsion or electricity. Our mutual friend Dr S. always suggests 1 gal of diesel will generate 10kwh of electricity, or shaft drive, or any other usable form. Most of the raw fuel energy is lost as heat, with only 25% or so turned into another useful form.


But the comparison is still illuminating. The Winns' gigantic 40kwh battery bank is equivalent to 4 gal of diesel fed to a generator or propulsion engine.


I don't mean to poo poo electric. I just think it's important to understand how it will perform and what's realistic. Otherwise you end up with great disappointment as Jimmy Cornell did once the physics of his project reared its ugly head.


One challenge is that we have a whole generation who grew up during the tech boom, and have seen miracles performed by advancing technology. So naturally they anticipate any technical obstacle will be removed in short order. That's reasonable with may things, but unreasonable with others. Unfortunately, batteries and solar are in the "other" category.


Lithium Ion batteries have been around and in commercial use for decades. They are better than lead acid in many ways, and overall let's say they are twice as good. If batteries were based on micro-electronics or software, in 1.5 to 2 years they would be twice as good again, so now 4x as good as lead. Then 1.5 to 2 years later, they would improve 2x again, so now 8x as good as lead. This is all based on Gordon Moore's observation about the growth of the underlying integrated circuit density that's at the heart of most tech, and is know as Moore's Law.



But batteries aren't integrated circuits. Nor are they software, which builds on itself because it is cumulative, and follows a similar growth curve. Lead batteries have been around for 100 years, and lithium ion for 30 years, and in that time batteries have improved 2x. Solar is similar, perhaps doubling in efficiency over 30 years. The big improvement with both technologies has been around more traditional scaling of manufacturing to bring costs down, and as costs come down, it's practical to use in more applications.
 
A couple years ago Jimmy Cornell attempted to put together an all-electric catamaran but I guess it didn't get out of the gate.
The Northman 1200 is available as an all-electric. I asked about ordering one, but they're so busy building boats for their local market that they can't deliver to the U.S.

A gallon of gasoline has about 35kw of power.
Yes, but a gas engine is (at best) 35% efficient to the point of delivery (prop, in this case), so that's 12.25 kWh/gal (3.23 kWh/liter). It's still far more than what you can store in a battery (about 0.5 kWh/liter), but it changes one's estimates quite a bit. And, as I mentioned before (somewhat incorrectly), the electric source-to-delivery chain is upward of 90% efficient.
 
I wonder if an answer to the long-range-dinghy (only occasionally necessary) for the Wynns would be a little case-of-beer-sized generator. Inefficient over a gas outboard if they were running it every trip, but a decent solution if they only need long range once per month or so.
 
We went through this decision process recently for our new 4.6 m tender. I would have loved to go with an electric in order to avoid carrying a different fuel type and the reduced maintenance. But lack of range, high initial cost, and the feasibility of recharging the 40 kWh battery (bigger than our house bank) while on the hook ruled it out. It would be great if there was such a thing as a light weight 70 hp diesel outboard!

I think the Wynn's 20 nm range requirement is going to be a stretch. Looking at their results from the ZeroJet (the only one in their tests to hit 20 kts), cruising @ 10 - 15 kts for 31 minutes (in a 15 kt breeze in enclosed waters), they covered 3.1 nm and were down to 68%. After 1 hr 48 minutes they had 17% left and had covered 8.3 nm. If they are happy to go slow then they might be able to get to 16 nm, but it looked like so much fun when they were doing donuts, there is no way I could contain myself. Maybe the foiling version of the OC Tender will be the ticket.
 
Much like the range anxiety thing with electric cars, I wonder how often anyone (the Wynns or anyone else) would need to go 20 nm at 20 kts. If they picked either 6 nm at 20 kts or 20 nm at 6 kts, they might be in business.

Also, the 40 kWh battery bank is on their yacht, not the tender. What you wrote made it sound otherwise.
 
Regarding the Wynn’s future boat - since this is a trawler forum we should keep in mind that the diesel/electric option on a sailing catamaran is intended as auxiliary propulsion, which is a completely different use case than the main propulsion systems on a trawler. It’s been interesting to watch Sailing Uma this season with their OceanVolt sail drive. Proving the point that electric auxiliary can be done on a retrofitted monohull but also proving that you’d be sailing at <4 knots very often due to a lack of range when motoring.

As far as the tender I can say our OC 350 with a 15hp outboard gets up and goes! A little longer and slower with 4 people in it. Don’t think an electric would get the job done even with such a lightweight tender.

Do love seeing all of the partner R&D centered around the OC platform. Very cool indeed!
 
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Foiling is the only way to get the energy use down enough for the range they are after.
My second dinghy can do 15nm on 2.1kWh at around 17kn.
Carrying the groceries is a little difficult however.
Way too much fun by the way.

Screenshot_20220712-125502_Chrome.jpg
 
Also, the 40 kWh battery bank is on their yacht, not the tender. What you wrote made it sound otherwise.


You are correct that the house bank is 40kw. I was also estimating another 40kwh for the tender. It's a 14kw motor, so that would give about 3 hrs of operation. But you can pick whatever size bank you want with corresponding cost and range. The more modest your speed and range requirements are, the less you will need to recharge, and the more practical it becomes to recharge with solar.
 
The only time I have seen the costs to be justified by economics is with government subsidies. If solar made sense, large distribution buildings in places like AZ and NV would be full of panels. And in those areas, and many others, for-rent distribution space is a capital intensive with competition fiercely eliminating inefficiencies -- if there were a way to make solar would, someone would, and if doesn't work on the roof of a 500,000+ sf building the price would be competitive with utility provided electricity (at least not in major US cities). But the only such buildings on which you see solar panels on government or user owned. Every time I have looked at the economics, it didn't come close to providing a decent return on (let alone return of) investment.

I expect that given your experience you may be right about this in the case of commercial buildings, and my case did include credits that helped increase the IRR and shorten the payback period.
I have not executed yet, but recently put out an RFP for a 1.5-megawatt solar installation on our farming operation in the desert. On any given day we operate over 3000 electrical hp for pumping 24 hours per day and around 2000 hp of diesel power during daylight hours some of which we plan to convert to electrical after the solar is installed.
We have cheap grid power from BPA to compete with but with a cap rate of 5% we had a payback period under 7 years. The real payoff comes in the out years assuming grid power increases in price over time with a 25-year planning horizon on the PV installation.
 
I thought they needed two outboards, 1 electric for short ship to shore trips and one gas for their longer runs where they need speed and power. The hassle of switching outboards would probably tank this approach. Maybe an electric motor in a small form factor could share the transom space like a kicker motor on a small fishing boat.

I was watching the YouTube “Sailing Fair Isle”, these folks are very experienced sailers, with meticulous attention to detail when it comes to electrical and mechanical systems.
Last year they bought/given (no doubt a cash for comment type of arrangement like the Wynn’s) an E-Propulsion outboard for their dinghy in Venice (Med) and are now in Turkey.
The latest episode explains the engine failure, error codes indicating electrical contact failure, which he cleaned up, dealer contact suspected mother board fail, but would replace the whole engine if not.
Turned out it was an undetermined engine failure and the whole unit was replaced.
Thankfully they were not too remote and the dealer expedited the replacement, especially given the fact the YT channel has a big following.

One of their local patrons lent them a petrol/gas outboard to help them out, but the last comment from the couple were they were hoping they could borrow the petrol/gas outboard for longer because of the versatility of all the power and speed offered for longer distance commuting ashore.
 
Great discussion. My takeaway is don't buy a sailboat.
Use everything at your disposal and don't be limited by weight, or space.
slowgoesit nailed it in their post. I just bought a 10 foot inflatable takacat with a epropulsion outboard. Nothing to do with being green. I wanted to be able to carry the dinghy above the tideline and not worry about fuel in remote locations. I have a 16 foot aluminum boat with a 70 hp for longer trips. I'm in the process of installing solar panels and LifePo4 batteries. Once again, being green is great if it works (key word being works), but having a reliable source of power is the priority for me. Until then I'll keep learning from this site. I was going to get rid of an old 3 hp 2 stroke outboard. Southern Boater's post just made me rethink this. Glad I have the room.....
 
...I was going to get rid of an old 3 hp 2 stroke outboard...

I have a 3.5hp Nissan from the mid-1990s, it weighs 28 pounds and is about as simple as they get. I plan to get rid of it when I can no longer boat. There is too much value in 3.5hp and only 28 pounds.

The Wynns could use diesel generator power to recharge the dinghy when they do longer runs which require a healthy amount of energy and short runs could be managed with a solar recharge. Seems like they are going to have a tough time getting away from some flavor of petrol.
 
The Wynns video

Thanks for sharing the video and discussion. It's clear everyone has their own opinion and for what it is worth I try and use the "listen and learn" approach based on what appear to be facts while separating out opinions.

If listened to everyone's opinion about our boating decisions over the past 30+ years I would likely still be looking for our first boat. :)

John
 
The only time I have seen the costs to be justified by economics is with government subsidies. If solar made sense, large distribution buildings in places like AZ and NV would be full of panels. And in those areas, and many others, for-rent distribution space is a capital intensive with competition fiercely eliminating inefficiencies -- if there were a way to make solar would, someone would, and if doesn't work on the roof of a 500,000+ sf building the price would be competitive with utility provided electricity (at least not in major US cities). But the only such buildings on which you see solar panels on government or user owned. Every time I have looked at the economics, it didn't come close to providing a decent return on (let alone return of) investment.

I just retired two months ago from the electrical utility industry, and my last 5 years were spent in the area of bulk power purchase/sale.

I agree with you 100% in your analysis. Solar is just not there yet in terms of lifecycle cost per megawatt compared to the benchmark numbers we are getting from combined cycle natural gas plants.
 
Motor Failure

I was watching the YouTube “Sailing Fair Isle”, these folks are very experienced sailers, with meticulous attention to detail when it comes to electrical and mechanical systems.
Last year they bought/given (no doubt a cash for comment type of arrangement like the Wynn’s) an E-Propulsion outboard for their dinghy in Venice (Med) and are now in Turkey.
The latest episode explains the engine failure, error codes indicating electrical contact failure, which he cleaned up, dealer contact suspected mother board fail, but would replace the whole engine if not.
Turned out it was an undetermined engine failure and the whole unit was replaced.
Thankfully they were not too remote and the dealer expedited the replacement, especially given the fact the YT channel has a big following.

One of their local patrons lent them a petrol/gas outboard to help them out, but the last comment from the couple were they were hoping they could borrow the petrol/gas outboard for longer because of the versatility of all the power and speed offered for longer distance commuting ashore.

This is the first real life example of an electric motor failure I heard about. I'm interested to see any statics on electric motors MTB (Mean Time Between Failures) and how they compare with gas engines. Can anyone share this type of data? The main reasons we changed to electric power for our dingy included removal of the gas tank from our diesel-powered boat, significantly lighter weight, quietness, simplicity and reliability. I still believe the electric motors (small sizes) exceed in these areas including reliability but looking for additional real-life data. Thanks

John T
 
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