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People want to be Eco friendly, so buy into this without understanding that it actually consumes MORE fuel and generates MORE byproducts vs running 8 hrs on a diesel.

Physics is everywhere, but not understood anywhere.

@twisted, can you provide some evidence that "running a generator (say 30 kW) for a couple hours" "consumes MORE fuel and generates MORE byproducts vs running 8 hrs on a diesel"?

While there is an increasing use of DC diesel gensets in the increasing hybrid market, and their marketing is for "eco", it may not be the case so I'm keeping eyes and ears open to evidence one way or the other...
 
@twisted, can you provide some evidence that "running a generator (say 30 kW) for a couple hours" "consumes MORE fuel and generates MORE byproducts vs running 8 hrs on a diesel"?

I can't speak for him because I don't know what he's referring to, but let's run with that 30kw gennie because I think I know what you're asking...

So you have a genset that puts out 30kw of electrical power, but due to the losses to heat, resistance, hysteresis, and the laws of thermodynamics that demand that absolutely nothing in this scenario operates at 100% efficiency, you're getting about 20kw to the prop. I'm not going to cite my sources or show my math on how I come to that number because I'm doing some gross rounding in my head based on previous calculations I've done in this regard. Plus, it's my bed time. But look up what the losses are in an electrical circuit between the power source and the load; this is the internet and you have access to the same material I do.

I'll give you a nudge: A gallon of diesel has a specific number of joules it can produce. A boat requires a certain number of joules to turn the propeller to achieve a certain speed. Find out how many joules the prop requires, then work backwards- how much power loss per cutlass, how efficient is the motor turning the shaft, what are the losses through wires, speed controller and DC to AC converter that are between the battery bank and the motor, how efficient is the charger and rectifier between the generator and the battery bank, and finally, how efficient is the gen head itself? And on top of that because there ain't no free lunch and it takes power to make power, you're looking at that 30kw gen head being turned by a ~40kw engine. So you're burning 40kw worth of fuel to generate 30kw worth of electricity that, due to losses and physics, ends up being about 20kw worth of work done at the prop. You're talking a couple percent here and there, but it all adds up and at the end of the day... it is cheaper to simply turn the prop with the engine.

DC motors? AC motors are cheaper, lighter, safer, more powerful and more efficient. Run a DC genset to charge the battery bank if you want; it's a step in the right direction because you at least eliminate the losses associated with rectifying AC to DC, but you'll still need to convert that DC to AC for the motor, unless you're really, REALLY deadnuts set on using a DC motor.
 
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Ya'know, the part I find particularly laughable is to dig deep into the ground in law abiding, peaceful countries to collect disgusting black stuff called crude oil, heat it to 400 degrees Celsius and fractionally distill it, add extra stuff into it so it works better for us, transport it around the globe in huge ships burning a form of oil.

I have to chime in on this part. What puzzles me most is that some people prefer your scenario than producing oil locally and transporting it cleanly and efficently through a pipeline. AND they somehow think that this is helping make the world greener.:banghead:
 
The generator vs direct diesel drive efficiency equation depends on 1 big thing: by running the generator at its most efficient load point to recharge (and having it off the rest of the time), do you save enough fuel to offset the conversion losses involved in electric drive? (compared to a propulsion diesel operating at variable load and not necessarily its most efficient point).



Realistically, the answer is probably "no", so unless you only need to recharge with the generator occasionally (and can use cleaner shore-side power sources most of the time), you're not gaining anything. And you still need to factor in the impact of the batteries, etc.
 
So in my state we have solar fields and off shore wind. Both my state and the neighboring to south and north have strongly encouraged alt. energy for years now. The percentage of electricity made (including hydro sent down from Canada is significant and increasing year by year. Personally I use no grid electricity and actually sell electricity back to the grid.

What’s missing from the above analysis is the origin of the electricity. If I ran a hybrid boat any propulsion that came from alt energy not involving fossil fuel is a environmental plus. Similarly any house use that came from solar +/or wind is a plus. My understanding is series or parallel all hybrid recreational boats have the capability to be plug in . My understanding is through out the first world for years now the percentage of electricity coming from non fossil fuel sources is increasing. With the current stresses placed by the dictator Putin even nuclear is making a come back. So for plug in hybrid more of the electricity will be “green” and range will increase. So even for the average cruiser most trips are 25-50nm. Don’t let the perfect get in the way of the good. Even if you dropped your FF use by by just 25% to 50% and 25% to 50% came from non FF electricity it’s all to the good. Believe except in some limited circumstances pure electric places too many limitations for most boaters but to say plug in hybrid does is not congruent to current or future boating is to be blind to current and future realities imho. I’m stuck with pure diesel for propulsion. My house draws (except the watermaker) comes from solar. I can run without the watermaker being mostly coastal now.
Currently I’m unwilling to expend the funds for a new build as it would impact my other expensive lifestyle choices. But if that wasn’t the case would definitely entertain a efficient hybrid . Think a increasing number of my peers will come to the same decision and the market will shift in accordance.
 
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Hippo, good post and I agree, but what state neighbors RI to the south?
 
Looking at the above. Believe there will be a segregation of subsets based on range and whether off or on grid. Think cruisers are a very small subset. Coastal cruisers are usually on grid. So those doing the loop or ICW or European canal system can function on plug in electric with a modicum of lifestyle restrictions. Yes probably genset dependent for AC and probably still burning diesel for hydronic heat in colder climates. Still, FF use dramatically decreased.
We are part of a society and dependent upon how that society is set up to deliver energy. Like it or not increasingly it’s electricity. Be it no gas to cook in California and the increase in induction cook tops. Cars. Heat pumps. Fertilizing technologies for farms. It’s pervasive throughout all activities of daily living and societal infrastructures(farming,transportation etc.). So now we’re seeing it in recreational boating. What a surprise.
 
One thing none of you have (so far) factored into your “equations”: noise. If it costs me MORE in diesel to charge batteries using a genset for two or three hours, but I get a nice quiet cruise for six or eight hours after that? That’s four to six hours of peacefully listening to the water rubbing itself against the bottom of the boat rather than the clatter of the Diesel engine. That’s a price I would probably be willing to pay, presuming it’s an extra gallon or so.
 
Yup you’re right and Maine isn’t “down east” either.lol
 
@twisted, can you provide some evidence that "running a generator (say 30 kW) for a couple hours" "consumes MORE fuel and generates MORE byproducts vs running 8 hrs on a diesel"?

While there is an increasing use of DC diesel gensets in the increasing hybrid market, and their marketing is for "eco", it may not be the case so I'm keeping eyes and ears open to evidence one way or the other...


I posted about this in either this thread or another similar one a few days ago. Just look at an "energy equation" for the power system.


You want to run the boat for a certain distance at a certain speed, and that will require some amount of prop shaft energy. Let's say it's 200kwh. I'll do everything in kwh, just for simplification.


With a conventional drive you will put fuel into a diesel engine to produce 200kwh of shaft output power to make that run. To continue to keep the numbers round, let's say the diesel is 25% efficient, so it will take 800kwh of fuel.


Now use a hybrid drive as you described. You still need the same 200kwh of prop shaft energy, and that will be driven by an electric motor drawing from batteries. Let's assume very efficient motor drive electronics and a very efficient motor, so 90% efficient combined. That's probably unrealistic, but we will give it the benefit of doubt. That means you need 220kwh of energy coming out of the battery to power the drive motor.


Now the battery and charge electronics have losses too, but again we will assume the very best chargers and highly efficient LFP batteries, so another 90%. Now we need 250 kwh (rounding a bit) of energy powering the chargers.


We then power those chargers with a diesel engine driving a generator head. Again, being generous, let's say the generator head is 90% efficient. That means we now need 275 kwh of shaft power from the diesel to produce that energy. That diesel engine is also 25% efficient, so we need 1100 kwh of fuel to move the boat the same distance distance and speed.


The result is a much more complicated, much more expensive system that consumes 37% more fuel to do the same work. It's a lose-lose-lose.


Now someone has already mentioned that you might be able to run the generator engine at a more efficient power point vs the propulsion engine, and regain some efficiency. Maybe, but the available gains are very limited. Any reasonable diesel operated within it's normal power range, say 20% to 80% load, will have a VERY flat energy/liter of fuel prower production curve. It's standardized as the Brake Specific Fuel Consumption, or BSFC. My engine has at most a 10% variation, so let's say that instead of 25% efficiency, the generator is 10% better so operates at 27.5% efficiency. That brings the generator fuel consumption down to 1000 kwh, which is still 25% more than a direct drive.


Key to remember is that fuel consumption is very little about the size of the engine or how long you run it, and almost entirely about how much power output you actually draw out of the engine.
 
Vid makes TTs point. Range is severely limited even on a near equator cloudless day. Multimillion dollar vessel only suitable for day cruising. At best a 12-18h horizon. Not an issue if you anchor or take a slip every night. A major issue for most cruisers. Even running coastal it’s not infrequent you run constantly for 24h or longer. The hops on both US coasts occasionally require that. For the East Coast going across outside the Georgia or NJ coast. Or across the gulf of Maine. For the West coast too many places to mention. Passage making not feasible without some form of ancillary FF or H power.
Same money you could have TT’s sister ship with transpacific range and something that could handle force 9 without breaking out a sweat.
Don’t think pure electric is there yet for the cruiser. Possibly getting there for day hops. But do think hybrid is currently works as a long distance cruiser. Even international cruising is 90% short hop well within battery range. As beautifully analyzed by TT using a genset makes little sense. From my limited understanding some of the same issues with serial hybrid but parallel is direct drive in effect. Yes you would need to go on a diet with long, lean and light or multi. Interested in opinions about parallel v series. Pluses and minuses of each.
 
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Vid makes TTs point. Range is severely limited even on a near equator cloudless day. Multimillion dollar vessel only suitable for day cruising. At best a 12-18h horizon. Not an issue if you anchor or take a slip every night. A major issue for most cruisers. Even running coastal it’s not infrequent you run constantly for 24h or longer. The hops on both US coasts occasionally require that. For the East Coast going across outside the Georgia or NJ coast. Or across the gulf of Maine. For the West coast too many places to mention. Passage making not feasible without some form of ancillary FF or H power.
Same money you could have TT’s sister ship with transpacific range and something that could handle force 9 without breaking out a sweat.
Don’t think pure electric is there yet for the cruiser. Possibly getting there for day hops. But do think hybrid is currently works as a long distance cruiser. Even international cruising is 90% short hop well within battery range. As beautifully analyzed by TT using a genset makes little sense. From my limited understanding some of the same issues with serial hybrid but parallel is direct drive in effect. Yes you would need to go on a diet with long, lean and light or multi. Interested in opinions about parallel v series. Pluses and minuses of each.


You brought up parallel vs serial a while ago and I keep forgetting to comment on that. I think you are correct that parallel is really the only approach that makes sense for any cruising application. That way you get the minimal loss of direct drive for most use, but still retain the ability to use renewable energy to the extent it's available. The key is to not burden the direct drive with all the losses incurred for renewables.


This begs the question of why shouldn't all boats be built this way, and I think the answer is simple; cost and complexity. I would venture that parallel electric drive, between batteries, chargers, control electronics, motors, and clutches would double the cost of the power plant. Perhaps even more than double, especially if you want more range which means more batteries. And the complexity doesn't just add failure risk and repair complexity to the electric drive, I think it also increases risk of failure and repair challenges in the conventional drive. To do a parallel drive, more clutches are needed to allow independent engage/disengage of both the electric and diesel motors. That moves you from an off the shelf ZF or Twin Disc transmission into a specialty transmission. That impacts parts availability and repair skills, should they be needed. And such devices won't have decades of refinement behind them like bullet proof conventional gears. Not to pick on Greenline, but consider the clutch hydraulic cylinder issue they all seem to be having. It's a simple part, but very difficult and time consuming to access for replacement. Subsequent generations will likely fix the issue, and provide for easier replacement. These are all typical aspects of being on the bleeding edge, which isn't in and of itself bad thing, but it's generally not what you want in a distance cruising boat. Reliable and well proven is usually much more important.
 
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TT here’s a partial list of companies supplying propulsion systems currently in building or have built boats and ships using hybrid.
ABB
BAE
Man
GE
Cummins
Cat
Rolls Royce
Schotel
Siemens
Warttsila
Toqeedo
Beta

So that’s billions of dollars spent by commercial and military for marine applications requiring durability and no failure. From cursory reading in low HP applications a clutch is used between the diesel (natural gas, propane,H etc.) engine and the shaft. An arimid belt and clutch to the electric motor. Devices are conventional. Transmission for the internal combustion engine is conventional as well.
You’re right of course there will be teething pains. However not of the magnitude I infer you suggest. These are engineering problems not requiring a paradigm shift but rather redirection of tried and true components and thinking.
Tried to research cost but unsuccessfully. Still from what I can gather not double. Of interest some installed systems used off the shelf AGM not LiFEPO.
Think for recreational boaters our tech is commonly trickle down from commercial, military and land based applications. Given those communities are buying and building hybrid now we aren’t in the nude position of a early adapter for a totally novel technology.
Don’t know if this is still true but when I had direct knowledge of a LLC building small (36-45’) motorsail the rule of thumb was 10% of cost was the hull. Another 10% for propulsion. Infill was where the majority of the money went. Using the guestimate of 10% of purchase price as the annual operating cost and even use pre Putins war costs for diesel and grid electricity payback is a few years. For recreational craft solar and the majority of the time having hospital draws only make payback time even shorter.
In an effort to increase range and decrease costs even not going to hybrid but rather hull efficiency has something to offer. Can think of very few boats as efficient and buttleproof as Denis’ Artnautica 58. Much less complex then the few KKs and Ns I’ve had the pleasure to be on.
Think green lines are excellent vessels (would love to own one) but don’t think they are the voyaging long term cruisers you and I are contemplating.
 
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Agree that Greenline is a different purpose vessel. I mention it only as an example of the problems that always exist in new designs.

And no doubt that there is lots of hybrid marine propulsion, primarily in commercial applications. But I believe in those application that it is 90% about control and maneuverability. Hybrid electric pod drives make tugs much more maneuverable. And they make cruise ships self docking rather than requiring assist tugs twice a day at every port of call. That’s worth burning some more fuel.

The danger is looking at a particular technology that serves well in one application, and assuming it will work equally well in another application without first understanding how it provides benefit in one use, and whether it will benefit in the new use. So it’s jumping to a conclusion rather than doing an actual analysis. A significant portion of what I see in recreational marine is jumping to a conclusion that hybrid will be more efficient, all because people know that hybrid cars are more efficient. That’s a conclusion without understanding the benefits in either application.
 
Totally agree. Also the issue of impact if the way you use the boat doesn’t maximize the benefits of the technology. My thinking is it takes more energy to move more pounds. It takes more energy to move an inefficient hull. Without changing the paradigm for how a cruising boat should look and accepting the need for light and long over space and weight electric and hybrid won’t work. There’s many applications where electric makes sense and would have minimal impact on use. Narrow boats used for canal cruising. Day boats. Skiffs. But for independent full time cruising electric because of the time required to recharge via solar/wind isn’t practical. You need the energy to come from somewhere and the amount gained from solar isn’t sufficient for continuous operation. The Plymouth 400 project crossed the Atlantic on solar alone. However it’s a very efficient and light trimaran with no people aboard and able to wait as long as required to recharge via its maximized space for solar. A cruiser wouldn’t put up with that. However have a different slant with hybrid.
Will be egocentric with your permission. Generally do very few passages. In the past 2-3 per year over 1500nm. Now expect no passages with longest uninterrupted run ~500nm. Trend is to change cruising grounds then do very short hops (25-50nm) every few days. Often stay in one place for over a week. When ever feasible anchor out. Available surface area on a recreational power boat for solar is sufficient to cover all house/hospital loads with a very small excess going into reserve for propulsion. To the extent there’s natural ventilation, excellent insulation, efficient infill (watermaker, frig, HVAC etc.) the fraction available for propulsion increases. Voyaging boats require an adequate AVS. Generally this means ballast. Batteries weigh but can be put to that purpose. So additional batteries does not imply significant additional displacement in the finished vessel. Electric motors weigh a fraction of FF engines for KW produced. Between them and associated supporting paraphernalia a modest increase in weight occurs. Still even with those limitations given the majority of propulsion occurs during very short hops as you explore your cruising grounds the requirements for passage aren’t operative except on relatively rare occasions. Think it’s reasonable to assume a 25-50% decrease in FF use with a modest electric range of just 25-50nm. If you accept those assumptions hybrid starts to make sense for propulsion. You do need to stop playing football and start playing baseball. Yes a different way to cruise and liveaboard. Not better or worse but definitely different. You point out the difficulties on the electric side. Would note for general acceptance there are difficulties on the FF side as well. To generate sufficient range when under power you still need tankage. Even if doing short hops with regional cruising if there’s no nearby diesel available to refuel before your next passage you need to carry that fuel with you. The amount of fuel required depends upon hull shape and vessel displacement. A 65’ ultra light and lean Al boat is a fraction of a similar LOA nordie or similar design. The weight and space required for diesel propulsion means less weight available for carrying capacity for human needs and desires. I raced sailboats. The difference will be somewhat like between a pipe berthed racer with one burner for cooking and a bucket for a head and a luxurious home on the water. Like with efficient multis weight will be a constant concern. Intelligent design does mitigate the spartan nature but the weight and space restrictions maybe unacceptable to some. It seems the gremlins take up home in unused systems. Although hours will decrease for the diesel side need for service likely won’t to the degree you would assume and spares/tools/storage space for them remains. Add in spares for the electric side. Haven’t explored this but expect much will be drop in or plug and play with no opportunities to jerry rig something to get you by.
So don’t disagree with you that hybrid has its issues. However don’t view any as insurmountable.

If you have the time check out some of the promo for the above cited companies. They seem to be involved in propulsion and not just maneuvering applications.
 
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'Hybrid' cars have a different purpose and energy balance than a 'hybrid' boat. In a car, hybrid propulsion (usually) makes sense (depending on all-important details such as weight) because of regenerative braking. When a car brakes, which happens often in city driving, instead of the energy of forward motion being lost to heat dissipated from the brakes it is (partially) recaptured to charge the batteries.

In strictly highway driving with no regenerative braking a hybrid car wouldn't offer any advantages over conventional propulsion. A boat is analogous to a car on a highway - there is no 'regenerative braking' possible with a boat (except for trivial amounts that might somehow be theoretically captured in the few seconds a boat slows down, but that wouldn't be worth the weight of the technology to capture).

Forward motion in a boat requires a constant application of energy - there is no 'coasting' and no regenerative braking. It wouldn't make sense to use an internal combustion engine to power a generator to then charge batteries or run an electric motor to turn the prop. Because of the inefficiencies in converting one form of energy (fossil fuel) to another (electricity), that would actually be less efficient than simply using the fossil fuel directly.

For 'hybrid' power to make sense for a boat means capturing enough solar energy to represent a meaningful fraction of the power used for propulsion, to outweigh the increased power requirements to move the weight of the batteries and more complex propulsive gear.
 
Generally do very few passages. In the past 2-3 per year over 1500nm. Now expect no passages with longest uninterrupted run ~500nm. Trend is to change cruising grounds then do very short hops (25-50nm) every few days. Often stay in one place for over a week. When ever feasible anchor out.

How many others here fall into the same or similar cruising pattern? If you do something else, what?

Having studied this problem for a while, I’ve arrived at the conclusion that, within acceptable tolerances*, a figure of 1 kWh per nm for propulsion makes a good starting point. So, using the middle of the 25-50 nm range, we get 37.5 nm. Add a few percentage to that to cover errors and omissions, and a comfortable number appears to be 40 kWh to cover most cruising needs, with maybe 60 kWh covering all the “short hops” running.

I’ve never gotten a clear read on how much of a budget to use for house power, parasitic loads, and what appears to be referred to as “hospital power” (a term I’m not familiar with). However, being comfortable with guessing, I’m going to budget 3 kW of continuous consumption for those loads. With 7 kW consumed for propulsion while underway, a total of 10 kW, with the appropriate amount of squinting, feels like an acceptable number (I’ll address those error bars).

Looking into generator consumption, it appears that a 16 kW generator at 3/4 load (12 kW) consumes about 1 gph. So running at 1 gph of fuel consumption should get us 7 nm, with a 20% budget for total consumption errors (12 kW produced vs. 10 kW estimated for use). Note that this doesn’t necessarily mean running at 7 knots. That 1 kW/nm depends heavily on hull shape and displacement, and might mean 5 knots in an inefficient boat.

So, running on generator for long runs, it looks like 3/4 load will produce sufficient energy to go seven miles on one gallon of fuel. That sounds like amazing efficiency, but not so far out that it’s ridiculous (how far will your boat go on 1 gallon at slow speeds?). Given that, just over 70 gallons of fuel will be consumed in one of the “long” runs of 500 nm.

I hear a lot of grumbling in the back of the room, so I’ll say this: as Hippocampus described above, a lot of this depends on hull design. But it FEELS to me like this model is a good one; a workable one.

Now the trick is to find a hull that is a) livable (because that’s the key here; we’re not racing, we’re cruising); and b) moves through the water an an acceptable speed on 7 kW of motor power. To the question of what constitutes an “acceptable speed,” well that’s left to the skipper, and how long they want to spend at the helm to get where they’re going.

And, to address those error bars further, even if I’m off by 100% on the propulsion consumption, and it’s really 2 kW/nm, that’s still reasonable efficiency. Generator sizing is down to a tolerance for how long you want to run the generator to power the batteries, not how long you want to be underway (which is the case with diesel-driven boats; the engine is running ALWAYS while underway, and the generator is running sometimes when stopped).

Thoughts?

* A generalization, and depends entirely on hull shape, displacement, drag, etc., etc., etc. There are wide error bars in the curve.
 
I misspoke it’s hotel not hospital. My understanding basically everything that’s still drawing when the boat isn’t moving.
 
Good post JD but there’s wisdom in TTs thinking. Once you’ve optimized hull design and eliminated what weight you can you still need to spin the screw(s). Possible ways include:
Electric motor driven by generator.
Electric motor driven by batteries. Possibly supplemented by solar but to achieve range needing shore power periodically.
Direct drive diesel or other FF. Going thro a generator is less efficient than direct drive. TT showed why. Diesel electric subs did it to allow underwater operation and decrease noise signature. In other settings where aliasing is required diesel electric also makes sense but for us cruisers it has little to offer.
Rather we return to hybrid. Sure there’s no regenerative breaking and unlike sail we’re not going to spin a prop backwards. But if we get the majority of our coastal cruising and most of our hotel loads from electricity generated off solar and occasional plug in we’d be way ahead. This year haven’t moved much. Rehabbing the boat so to do that she sits in a slip plugged in. But even in unencumbered years we vary between stretches of slips and anchored with just hotel loads. Can see early adapters decreasing their FF burn by 50-90% depending upon their cruising program using current tech hybrid. The folks who go slip to slip can even go pure electric.
Interesting things to think about are how much hydrocarbon goes into making a grp boat hull. How much electricity to make Al and then weld a hull. Neither are green. But if the source of electricity is green the calculus makes the Al hull much greener. Glass reenforced plastic or prepreg carbon hulls can’t escape the resins, adhesives and basic components aren’t and can’t be recycled either.
Although the shift is probably too late for me think it’s inevitable.
 
While I’m definitely in favor of “green” technologies (including using steel over GRP), my primary drivers are a) reduction of diesel usage for short hops; and b) reduction of noise.
 
How many others here fall into the same or similar cruising pattern? If you do something else, what?



Having studied this problem for a while, I’ve arrived at the conclusion that, within acceptable tolerances*, a figure of 1 kWh per nm for propulsion makes a good starting point. So, using the middle of the 25-50 nm range, we get 37.5 nm. Add a few percentage to that to cover errors and omissions, and a comfortable number appears to be 40 kWh to cover most cruising needs, with maybe 60 kWh covering all the “short hops” running.



I’ve never gotten a clear read on how much of a budget to use for house power, parasitic loads, and what appears to be referred to as “hospital power” (a term I’m not familiar with). However, being comfortable with guessing, I’m going to budget 3 kW of continuous consumption for those loads. With 7 kW consumed for propulsion while underway, a total of 10 kW, with the appropriate amount of squinting, feels like an acceptable number (I’ll address those error bars).



Looking into generator consumption, it appears that a 16 kW generator at 3/4 load (12 kW) consumes about 1 gph. So running at 1 gph of fuel consumption should get us 7 nm, with a 20% budget for total consumption errors (12 kW produced vs. 10 kW estimated for use). Note that this doesn’t necessarily mean running at 7 knots. That 1 kW/nm depends heavily on hull shape and displacement, and might mean 5 knots in an inefficient boat.



So, running on generator for long runs, it looks like 3/4 load will produce sufficient energy to go seven miles on one gallon of fuel. That sounds like amazing efficiency, but not so far out that it’s ridiculous (how far will your boat go on 1 gallon at slow speeds?). Given that, just over 70 gallons of fuel will be consumed in one of the “long” runs of 500 nm.



I hear a lot of grumbling in the back of the room, so I’ll say this: as Hippocampus described above, a lot of this depends on hull design. But it FEELS to me like this model is a good one; a workable one.



Now the trick is to find a hull that is a) livable (because that’s the key here; we’re not racing, we’re cruising); and b) moves through the water an an acceptable speed on 7 kW of motor power. To the question of what constitutes an “acceptable speed,” well that’s left to the skipper, and how long they want to spend at the helm to get where they’re going.



And, to address those error bars further, even if I’m off by 100% on the propulsion consumption, and it’s really 2 kW/nm, that’s still reasonable efficiency. Generator sizing is down to a tolerance for how long you want to run the generator to power the batteries, not how long you want to be underway (which is the case with diesel-driven boats; the engine is running ALWAYS while underway, and the generator is running sometimes when stopped).



Thoughts?



* A generalization, and depends entirely on hull shape, displacement, drag, etc., etc., etc. There are wide error bars in the curve.



How did you come up with 1kwh per nm, and at what speed? It seems very low to me, probably by an order of magnitude. Just thinking about a 1kw motor pushing a boat for an hour, I don’t think it’s going to get very far. You are probably in the 2-3 kt range.
 
I’ll have to go dig up references, but I’m certainly not off by an order of magnitude.
 
I’ll have to go dig up references, but I’m certainly not off by an order of magnitude.


Here are a couple of data points based on David Gerr’s calculation for a 30’ LWL, 20,000 lb displacement boat

7 kts, 25kw, 3.5 kWh per nm

5 kts, 10kw, 2kwh per nm

3.5 kts, 3.2 kw, about 1kwh per nm

So your estimate is much better than mine, provided the boat is small, light, and moving slowly.
 
Sometime back I had a PM thread with a member who has a Greenline 33 (which, by his own admission, isn’t exactly a trawler, but that’s another discussion). He provided the following:

My 7kw engine draws about 133 Amps when running max speed (which is 6 knots empty and 5.0-5.5 knots loaded & only light wind and no current).

<EDIT: I cut out a discussion about a refrigerator and one other load totaling 5 amps>

Volts x Amps = Watts.
48v x 138A = 6.624 Kw.

So, 48V X 133A = 6.4 kW at 6 knots, so 0.94 nm/kWh.

I’ve seen other boats running at similar speeds with similar draws (“seen” = YouTube). Again, error bars and squinting, but it’s not as far off as you might have suggested, and this (above) is a real world example, not someone’s estimate.

As they say, YMMV. :D
 
The part I find particularly laughable is the oft-mentioned idea to use a generator to generate AC, then rectify it to DC to store in the batteries, then convert it back to AC to run the motor.

Something, something, laws of thermodynamics... I dunno.

Do you happen to have a modern fancy dishwasher or clothes washer in your house? Or maybe an inductive stove top? How about a “brushless” battery powered hand tool?
 
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But there’s no getting around not insignificant losses with each alteration in the form of energy. DC/AC/ diesel/electric/ rotation. It remains most efficient to burn diesel to turn a prop directly not to have the intervening conversion to electricity. Think bigger gains achievable by capture of waste heat energy and conversion to a useful form. Look at formula engines where the combustion isn’t even inside the cylinders or current variations of sterling closed He loop engines using exhaust waste heat for this application.
 
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Update

Well, after many months researching electric powered boats (mostly overseas) we are getting closer to making a final decision and building a new boat. A few observations made so far realted to electric boats includeds relatively high cost, technology is advancing but we have a long to go before all electric trawlers become popular, hybrid systems are complex IMO, speed kills range, keeping it simple makes most sense today.

So, with this in mind we decided not to push the envelope and leverage what already experienced and feel comfortable with. We will view this boat as both filling the near-term mission (harbor cruising with a margarita and music) while we learn more and monitor progress on the technology.

We explored a custom build using wood but the costs, while not super crazy do not add up for this boat so we will select from a production model with some changes. Once we sign the contract, I will start to post the progress and why the boat chose a little more. Feel good to be starting another projec.t

John T.
Nordhavn 4050, 4061, 3522
Helmsman 38E
Marshall Marine 16' Sandpiper
 

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