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Old 06-13-2022, 11:18 AM   #1
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Electric drive/ Current costs and available tech

This is to discuss electric drive costs. Please avoid referring to policy or moral related discussion.

I'll attach an actual charging pic for my car. I'm in California so have higher gas prices than most. It is vastly cheaper. I think the higher up front cost should justify a longer loan term since the batteries already have 8 year warranties and you'll save a couple hundred a month give or take on fuel costs.

My marina currently has free electricity so I'm really tempted to add a couple pod drive units which will let me do short term all electric and then charge me when I'm underway on diesel or at anchor.
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Old 06-13-2022, 11:56 AM   #2
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The POD drive option I looked at.

https://www.epropulsion.com/pod-drive/

The option hooked directly into the main driveline. One of many out there now.

https://oceanvolt.com/solutions/systems/shaft-drive/
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Old 06-19-2022, 10:29 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socal_Cecil View Post
The POD drive option I looked at.

https://www.epropulsion.com/pod-drive/

The option hooked directly into the main driveline. One of many out there now.

https://oceanvolt.com/solutions/systems/shaft-drive/
Socal_Cecil,


I sent Oceanvolt a message for a re-power quote.
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Old 06-19-2022, 10:44 AM   #4
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Cecil, so to understand, you want to have electric-only propulsion and remove your diesel main (I assume you have a single)?

I would think it more practical to propel via your existing drive line instead of adding two pods on either side. Go for diesel-electric propulsion with an ample battery bank of say 50-70kWh. That way you could easily fit a 30kW propulsion motor, driven by a single large generator, to cruise at a comfortable 5-6 knots. But when running on your lithium bank, you could reduce down to 3-4 knots and have many hours of operation.

You could source your batteries, controller a small electric car motor of 48VDC or 96VDC, via Alibaba or similar. Would save a ton of money compared to buying American marine retail equipment.

Sounds like a fun project, go for it!
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Old 06-19-2022, 10:56 AM   #5
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I think a solution like the oceanvolt AX would be simpler and cheaper than pods, which add underwater hardware.
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Old 06-19-2022, 11:04 AM   #6
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I would suggest and electric inboard such as:


https://www.elcomotoryachts.com/prod...tric-inboards/
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Old 06-19-2022, 02:41 PM   #7
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When you consider this, it's important to understand the difference in physics between moving a car and moving a boat, as it greatly impacts the power requirements and expected performance.


Moving a car takes a bunch of energy over a short time to bring it up to speed, very little energy to maintain speed, and an opportunity to recapture energy (regeneration) when slowing back down. There are a bunch of variable, but that's the basic cycle and principal.


A boat is very different. Moving a boat takes constant, continuous energy, and a lot of it. There is no "coasting" at cruise speed, and certainly no recapturing of energy. As a result, it takes much, much more stored energy to move a cruising boat in any sort of typical use vs running a car in typical use.


To put some rough numbers around it, it takes 15hp or so to maintain 60 mph in a car, yet your boat takes about 30hp to maintain 7 kts. So to travel 10nm it takes about 3hp-hrs of energy to move your car, and 42hp-hrs to move your boat the same distance. So over 10x the energy to travel the same distance, not considering the time to travel that distance.


You also need to consider recharge time in the context of commonly available shore power connections. A 3 hr cruise in your boat at 7 kts will consume about 100kWh of electric power. To replenish that from a 50A/240V shore cord will take about 10 hrs running at 90% load. A 30A/120V cord will take over 30 hrs. And that's just to recover from a 3 hrs cruise.


To deal with this, where electric propulsion provides acceptable results is for moving short distances, at slow speeds (e.g. sub 4-5 kts), hopping between docks with good power available. In another thread a Greenline owner described doing just this in the European canal system, and it sounds like a great fit. Commercial applications have been with short haul ferries, and have included huge terminal infrastructure for recharging in the available time between departures. Also puttering about the harbor in small day boats, including rentals.


I'm sure electric boat applications will continue to evolve and grow, but it's a very different problem to solve vs cars. For better or worse, a lot of boat and boat equipment manufacturers market to the perception/assumption that what's good for cars must also be good for boats.


Personally I think the real opportunity on boats is with a hybrid house power system. Big batteries, big inverters, big alternator, and a generator with auto-start works really well. We have house power with little to no load management 24x7. If we are anchored at night and underway every day, we never run a generator. And if we are anchored for multiple days as we are now, the generator kicks in once a day for 2-3 hrs and it's done. Add solar and you can further reduce or eliminate the generator run time.
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Old 06-19-2022, 04:27 PM   #8
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Thank you for your input TwistedTree.


There seems to be a "sweet spot" when it comes to current tech and current prices for things like solar, lithium batts etc. We are also looking at WingIt kite systems as options to extend range.



Our last "off-grid" experiment was on our 2018 44.5 Toy Hauler where we added solar for our day to day activities. We were not under load and making way. So some of my data will spill over onto our next trawler, using alt propulsion will be different. Figuring solar for daily use on the hook will be pretty straight forward, I would hope.
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Old 06-22-2022, 11:10 AM   #9
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This is a medium term goal so still tracking the tech more than anything.

My 34ft trawler should have a hull speed around 7knts. To get that I need 17.5hp(13kw) of thrust for my 10 tons. If I drop it down to 5knts it should take 7.5hp(5.5kw). That's actually not that hard to get a generator for not to mention a 25v/200ah victron battery could go for 1 hrs. Add on 3kw of solar and 1 kw of wind and your almost covering the propulsion. Then you would still want the generator for loads like ac and refrigeration and when cloudy. I would likely want 2 10kw motors wherever they are mounted to ensure enough power for dirty hulls, strong currents, and wind along with inefficiencies.

A large part of the savings switching to electric comes from reduced maintenance. With dual pods I could greatly increase the maneuvering in tight spaces, reduce driveline inefficiencies and maintenance, have redundancy, and also have some hydrogeneration when on the hook. I would be able to reduce or remove the rudder and remove the shaft. I do acknowledge the increased liability of underwater hardware and have also looked at electric outboards that can be raised when not in use. They also would need no underwater through hulls( power cables through the transom). It would take away from the swim step space which is hard enough to climb onto in scuba gear. My favorites are here.

https://rimdrivetechnology.nl/produc...d-m-t/?lang=en
https://rimdrivetechnology.nl/produc...v-pro/?lang=en


If I kept the Lehman I could hook up a couple of high output alternators. These are actually 5kw. Keeping the Lehman would be more for ballast and nostalgia. A modern DC output generator would be far more efficient. More room in the bilge is more room for stuff.

https://www.westmarine.com/buy/balma...ator--20245189

I worry about the Alibaba batteries. I hear the chemistries aren't always what they should be and the US sourced ones(likely also made in china) have battery management systems built into them that I trust more. I would like to move toward a victron boat slowly. If I went cheap it would be with used EV batteries. I would still need to add on a bms but at least I know the cells are road rated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mako View Post
Cecil, so to understand, you want to have electric-only propulsion and remove your diesel main (I assume you have a single)?

I would think it more practical to propel via your existing drive line instead of adding two pods on either side. Go for diesel-electric propulsion with an ample battery bank of say 50-70kWh. That way you could easily fit a 30kW propulsion motor, driven by a single large generator, to cruise at a comfortable 5-6 knots. But when running on your lithium bank, you could reduce down to 3-4 knots and have many hours of operation.

You could source your batteries, controller a small electric car motor of 48VDC or 96VDC, via Alibaba or similar. Would save a ton of money compared to buying American marine retail equipment.

Sounds like a fun project, go for it!
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Old 06-22-2022, 11:25 AM   #10
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Cecil, my impression is that this is a great experiment for you. That's wonderful. But still, as a test bed and for just foolin'-around, I wouldn't want to blow cash on those extremely overblown "marine" systems.

My advice: store your Lehman away in the corner of your garage, put your hybrid drive system together as cheaply as possible, learn a ton from it all, and then when you're ready to move onto the next boat with better-defined systems, replace the diesel, remove the electric stuff, and sell the boat off.
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Old 06-22-2022, 12:00 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socal_Cecil View Post
This is a medium term goal so still tracking the tech more than anything.

My 34ft trawler should have a hull speed around 7knts. To get that I need 17.5hp(13kw) of thrust for my 10 tons. If I drop it down to 5knts it should take 7.5hp(5.5kw).

I'm not sure where you got these numbers, but I got about twice that using the kiwiprops calculator.
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Old 06-22-2022, 04:12 PM   #12
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Cecil, my impression is that this is a great experiment for you. That's wonderful. But still, as a test bed and for just foolin'-around, I wouldn't want to blow cash on those extremely overblown "marine" systems.

My advice: store your Lehman away in the corner of your garage, put your hybrid drive system together as cheaply as possible, learn a ton from it all, and then when you're ready to move onto the next boat with better-defined systems, replace the diesel, remove the electric stuff, and sell the boat off.
I'm an engineer. I like projects technology, and efficiency. I suspect if you don't like projects boating could become expensive and tiring very quickly. And yes, Everything I'm looking at is fairly easy to install and remove (battery, motors, inverter, charger).

I don't see the Lehman leaving the bilge either. I'm worried about removing too much weight below the waterline with all the weight I have above it. (1000 lbs engine, 2000lbs diesel, probably another 500lbs in steel tanks). That's a reason I like the idea of getting it to be my DC generator.
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Old 06-22-2022, 04:16 PM   #13
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There seems to be a "sweet spot" when it comes to current tech and current prices for things like solar, lithium batts etc. We are also looking at WingIt kite systems as options to extend range.
Have you reached out to wingit yet? I looked at their site but don't think I have space or a secure enough mount for it on the bow. I suspect it's putting a lot of force onto whatever it's hooked to.
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Old 06-22-2022, 04:36 PM   #14
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I reached out to wing it, based on Dan's boat, a 48 foot Seaton, the WingIt folks said you'd get 5 knots out of their kite BUT, you'd have to remove that foward stay.


Here is their response to installling a kite onto a 48 foot 75k lbs. trawler.


******************
HI,
I would be possible but it is not that easy to handle the lines with the forestay mounted and the performance will be only around 5 knots with the kite sail.

I attached a brochure with the price list for you.

PLease let me know, when you need more details.
Best regards
Stephan

Wingit Sportartikelvertrieb UG Zur Wetterwarte 60 01109 Dresden Germany

*********************************************

End of Message.








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Old 06-22-2022, 04:43 PM   #15
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They make it sound like 5 knots is bad. I'd take 5 knots plus spooling up the diesel to 1000rpm to make maybe 7 or 8 knots? That is $ back into the pocket if you are cruising the boat. If you are at the marina, not worth it at all.


Some short passages we plan on making in the Carib are already making me cringe. I missed the days of a dollar a gallon, I was in college during those days. This is why I like these conversations with all of you guys. It's thinking outside the box that pushes innovation.


On another note, there has to be an answer for all the trawler and diesel owners out there when things get worse. There has to be a re-power option that is more cookie cutter where one can R+R (remove and replace) the ole workhorse with something more cost effective. Down the road, sure, but I want to think ahead.




Cecil, with respect to "not seeing the Lehman leave the boat", I can remedy that lost weight at the water line with my wife's shoes! That alone will even the water line again!
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Old 06-22-2022, 05:03 PM   #16
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I hear 5 knts and wonder how much hydrogeneration I can get on top of it. Besides, if you have a displacement hull you aren't in a hurry anyways, whats another day to get there.

I have the other thread on HPR diesel. I think it's going to put a cap on prices as they ramp up. It's already cheaper out here in Cali. It's based on biomass from what I read so should be more stable. If you sit down and run the numbers I imagine your saving more not being able to spend money while crossing than your spending on the gas. Those shoe purchases add up. Just don't get internet or amazon will have boxes waiting for you at the dock when you get there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bountyhunter44 View Post
They make it sound like 5 knots is bad. I'd take 5 knots plus spooling up the diesel to 1000rpm to make maybe 7 or 8 knots? That is $ back into the pocket if you are cruising the boat. If you are at the marina, not worth it at all.


Some short passages we plan on making in the Carib are already making me cringe. I missed the days of a dollar a gallon, I was in college during those days. This is why I like these conversations with all of you guys. It's thinking outside the box that pushes innovation.


On another note, there has to be an answer for all the trawler and diesel owners out there when things get worse. There has to be a re-power option that is more cookie cutter where one can R+R (remove and replace) the ole workhorse with something more cost effective. Down the road, sure, but I want to think ahead.




Cecil, with respect to "not seeing the Lehman leave the boat", I can remedy that lost weight at the water line with my wife's shoes! That alone will even the water line again!
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Old 06-23-2022, 10:09 PM   #17
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The hyrbird (diesel electric) combos that are being sold now on some trawler and cats such as the new HH44 have both engine and motor on the shaft.



Just throwing this subject out there. Like some of the get home contraptions I've seen, wonder if it is possible to have a chain or belt system engage/disengage an electric motor that is mounted next to the diesel?


I'm sure this brings up the whole running the transmission unit while the diesel is off business. Well, just thinking out loud.
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Old 06-24-2022, 01:33 PM   #18
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Quote from rimdrivetechnology.nl

Cecil - Im close to commissioning an all-electric 5ton34ft powercat trawler in the U.K.. RDT are among several manufacturers whose motors Im considering (the other are Vetus E-Pod, SeaDrive and ePropulsion). RDT sent me a quote for their 11kW thruster model (twin set, with or without azimuth swivels, to include all controls as well as 5 x 9.8kWh 48V LiFePO batteries) - 42,500 vs. 35,250 respectively. The batteries are 3,295 each/16,475 for 5. Obviously shipping across the pond would generate additional charges.
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Old 06-24-2022, 01:44 PM   #19
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Cecil - Im close to commissioning an all-electric 5ton34ft powercat trawler in the U.K.. RDT are among several manufacturers whose motors Im considering (the other are Vetus E-Pod, SeaDrive and ePropulsion). RDT sent me a quote for their 11kW thruster model (twin set, with or without azimuth swivels, to include all controls as well as 5 x 9.8kWh 48V LiFePO batteries) - 42,500 vs. 35,250 respectively. The batteries are 3,295 each/16,475 for 5. Obviously shipping across the pond would generate additional charges.


Id be real interested to hear more about your boat, the power system, expected performance, and of course actual performance once its in use.

You say you are about to commission, but are still selecting the power plant? I guess Im confused by the timing of everything?
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Old 06-24-2022, 03:07 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bountyhunter44 View Post
I reached out to wing it, based on Dan's boat, a 48 foot Seaton, the WingIt folks said you'd get 5 knots out of their kite BUT, you'd have to remove that foward stay.


Here is their response to installling a kite onto a 48 foot 75k lbs. trawler.


******************
HI,
I would be possible but it is not that easy to handle the lines with the forestay mounted and the performance will be only around 5 knots with the kite sail.

I attached a brochure with the price list for you.

PLease let me know, when you need more details.
Best regards
Stephan

Wingit Sportartikelvertrieb UG Zur Wetterwarte 60 01109 Dresden Germany

*********************************************

End of Message.








Mark
Interesting, wondering if this could be, at a minimum, an emergency get home option for those who do not have secondary propulsion.

Can you share the pricing?
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