Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 07-28-2022, 10:23 PM   #121
JRO
Veteran Member
 
JRO's Avatar
 
Vessel Model: 01 Carver 444, Four Forty Four CPMY
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by backinblue View Post
With all the discussion about electric boats and greener power, why is sailing not making a comeback? I realize the physical requirements, but I watch super sailing yachts that raise and lower sails with a joystick. I haven't owned a sailboat in a long time, but with today's electrical aides, I can't imagine it's that difficult to control sails and seems to me to be an easier and proven way to travel rather than trying to figure out how to build an electrical power trawler.
Most non-racing sail boats that leave their slips use their sails a small fraction of their travel time. They are motored and they motor very well.
JRO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2022, 10:46 PM   #122
JRO
Veteran Member
 
JRO's Avatar
 
Vessel Model: 01 Carver 444, Four Forty Four CPMY
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by kthoennes View Post
Okay, I swallowed the bait and googled. Uh huh. 400 hydrogen refueling stations worldwide. 45 stations in the United States, 43 of them in screwball California. Yeah, that's ready for prime time.
California is the seventh largest economy in the world. It was California’s emissions laws with goals that motivated the technology we benefit from today. Because of California, manufacturers created far more efficient and more powerful internal combustion engines that we love today. California lead the way by demanding manufactures to JUST DO IT or lose the California market… It transformed the entire world. Remember when you had to change spark plugs regularly?
JRO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2022, 12:27 AM   #123
Guru
 
twistedtree's Avatar
 
City: Walkabout Creek
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 8,631
OK, I took the bait too.


Using the best PEM (electric) hydrogen generators, it takes 55kwh of electric power to create hydrogen with 40kwh of energy content. Then put that through a fuel cell at 60% conversion efficiency to make electricity again. So 55 kwh put into the system yields 24kwh coming out. This has very little attraction.



Pretty much the only advantage of such a system is that you can probably pack more stored energy into a cubic meter using compressed hydrogen vs what you can store in an equivalent volume of batteries. This enhances a vehicles ability to carry "fuel", but at a significant conversion loss penalty. So I suppose you can look at it as a very high power density battery, but one that has a 50% round trip power loss.



But Hippocampus already explained all this many posts ago.


Physics is everywhere..... but maybe someone wants to defend the assertion that hydrogen fuel cells will become even a small thing, let along transform vehicular power plants?


Just as an associated anecdote, I recall when I was in middle school in the midst of the 1970s oil crisis, fuel cells where talked about as the next big thing. I though it sounded pretty promising at the time, but now 50 years later - nothing. Anyone remember Ballard Power? Huge hype, huge market run up, huge belly flop.


I think the only way hydrogen is interesting is if fusion can be controlled and harnessed. The energy stored in an atomic bond (released by fusion or fission) is way, way, way more than that stored in a molecular bond (released by burning or other chemical reaction). If you can extract and harness the atomic energy in hydrogen, it will be orders of magnitude more than the energy required to generate and package hydrogen.
__________________
MVTanglewood.com
twistedtree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2022, 07:46 AM   #124
Guru
 
catalinajack's Avatar
 
City: Edgewater, MD
Vessel Name: Catalina Jack
Vessel Model: Defever 44
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,380
Quote:
Originally Posted by backinblue View Post
It's the same concern with electric cars. Probably more psychological than reality. Most people never drive more than 100 miles at a time, but they angst at the 400 mi range limit.
MOST people NEVER drive more than 100 miles at a time? Not even close. Many yes, maybe 50-50, but not most and not never.
catalinajack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2022, 07:55 AM   #125
Guru
 
catalinajack's Avatar
 
City: Edgewater, MD
Vessel Name: Catalina Jack
Vessel Model: Defever 44
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,380
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seevee View Post
All of this electric crap is interesting, but it's miles away right now and not a viable replacement for diesel and gas for trucks, cars, boats and planes.



Most of it is way over subsidized by YOUR tax dollars and we need to slow up the transition to a reasonable pace, which will be several years away.



Today, still the vast majority of new cars sold are gas and in the current used market it's about 100% gas cars. Big vehicles like boats, trucks and planes, just aren't even close.


Yes, we'll get there, but if we try to expedite this we can easily end up on the short end of the stick.


I'll keep my electric bike, but that's it.



Drill, baby Drill!
And very few talk about the ability of the elecfric grid, already at or near capacity, to deliver all those additional electrons.
catalinajack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2022, 08:24 AM   #126
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 12,358
I'm posting to be sure to stay on this thread. Lots to add... but time not available right now. Still have 2.5 pages of posts to consume in order to get full gist of members' outlook, input, issues. Cheers! Art
Art is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2022, 09:01 AM   #127
TF Site Team
 
koliver's Avatar
 
City: Saltspring Island
Vessel Name: Retreat
Vessel Model: C&L 44
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,463
[QUOTE=twistedtree;1113768]
Just as an associated anecdote, I recall when I was in middle school in the midst of the 1970s oil crisis, fuel cells where talked about as the next big thing. I though it sounded pretty promising at the time, but now 50 years later - nothing. Anyone remember Ballard Power? Huge hype, huge market run up, huge belly flop.
"

I was in Burnaby BC at that time and I recall the BC Transit busses on a major route proudly displaying the message that they were running on Hydrogen fuel cells experimentally. That experiment lasted a few years, but when it ended they simply went back to diesel. No fanfare, no explanation, just no more connection to Hydrogen or to fuel cells.
__________________
Keith
koliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2022, 09:14 AM   #128
Guru
 
GoneFarrell's Avatar
 
City: Columbia City, OR & Mulege, BCS
Vessel Name: Imagine
Vessel Model: Farrell 34
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 768
Quote:
Originally Posted by twistedtree View Post
I think the only way hydrogen is interesting is if fusion can be controlled and harnessed. The energy stored in an atomic bond (released by fusion or fission) is way, way, way more than that stored in a molecular bond (released by burning or other chemical reaction). If you can extract and harness the atomic energy in hydrogen, it will be orders of magnitude more than the energy required to generate and package hydrogen.

Half the fuel comes from water (deuterium).
The other half (tritium) has to come from fission reactors or refining of a neutron bombarded lithium blanket in a fusion reactor, and that is a problem. Doing deuterium deuterium reaction takes way more parasitic energy to make happen.
Nobody is pursuing D-D reaction path
GoneFarrell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2022, 09:25 AM   #129
Guru
 
backinblue's Avatar
 
City: Stratford, CT
Vessel Name: Blue Moon
Vessel Model: Mainship Pilot 355
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 3,627
Quote:
Originally Posted by catalinajack View Post
MOST people NEVER drive more than 100 miles at a time? Not even close. Many yes, maybe 50-50, but not most and not never.
OK I admit that my wording could have been better, but I stand by what I said. Only a small percentage of drivers drive more than 100 miles at a time (which could be supported, albeit poorly, by "most people never"). In fact, 60% of trips ar 6 miles or less.

https://www.energy.gov/sites/default...?itok=n91e1p-w
__________________
“In my walks, every man I meet is my superior in some way, and in that I learn from him.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson
backinblue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2022, 09:29 AM   #130
Guru
 
backinblue's Avatar
 
City: Stratford, CT
Vessel Name: Blue Moon
Vessel Model: Mainship Pilot 355
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 3,627
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRO View Post
Most non-racing sail boats that leave their slips use their sails a small fraction of their travel time. They are motored and they motor very well.
When I sailed, I used my motor as little as possible. I'd sail on and off my mooring if possible and used a cruising spinnaker in light air. Some would rather just motor, I would usually only do that if I was in a hurry to get somewhere and the winds were against me. My point is, sailboats motor well and sail even better with very little fuel. It makes me wonder about the modern conveniences of electric sail handling etc as an alternative to trying to build an electric trawler.
__________________
“In my walks, every man I meet is my superior in some way, and in that I learn from him.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson
backinblue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2022, 09:46 AM   #131
Guru
 
City: Newport, R.I.
Vessel Name: Hippocampus
Vessel Model: Nordic Tug 42
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 2,820
Been studying it more. Ignoring fuel cells but just thinking about H internal combustion there’s a feasible system if the h is solely generated from land based solar fields and mountain/ near shore wind.
Would note the large multi national oil companies are putting billions in to preposition for that paradigm. The engines already exist and are flying helicopters, moving trucks, running generators and such.
Hippocampus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2022, 10:46 AM   #132
Guru
 
twistedtree's Avatar
 
City: Walkabout Creek
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 8,631
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hippocampus View Post
Been studying it more. Ignoring fuel cells but just thinking about H internal combustion there’s a feasible system if the h is solely generated from land based solar fields and mountain/ near shore wind.

Agreed, but then the question is whether that's the best way to utilize the electricity from those renewable sources?


1) Use it to produce hydrogen to run through an internal combustion engine to move a vehicle at a loss of about 80%, or


2) Use it to charge batteries to run a vehicle at a loss of 10%


Charging batteries is clearly much more efficient. The down side comes back to the total stored capacity and whether the vehicle can accomplish its goals given the limits.


For 100 mile per day cars followed by ample idle time to charge, the battery vehicle is a much better solution.


But for a tractor trailer or bus the batteries to run it all day are too big and you need a way to store more power. Enter compressed hydrogen, or CNG, or LPG, or Diesel, or Petrol.


So I think the value is hydrogen power vehicles is not improved efficiency. It's about increased energy storage density, at the EXPENSE of efficiency.
__________________
MVTanglewood.com
twistedtree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2022, 06:35 AM   #133
Guru
 
City: Newport, R.I.
Vessel Name: Hippocampus
Vessel Model: Nordic Tug 42
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 2,820
Excellent post TT. Agree with your thinking. Factor in outliers like recreational boaters and mainstream activities like trucking one can envision parallel infrastructure to support pure EV and hybrid EV/H. Not yet discussed is public acceptance. My current old, low tech diesel jeep suv has a range of 720m, can rock crawl, deal with loose mud and snow and can be refilled in minutes throughout the country. Those aren’t the needs for 95% of personal vehicles. My SD trawler when in mixed use ( displacement and above hull speed) does terribly. I average ~2mpg. My range is 1200m if I’m willing to stay at 70-80% of hull speed. But most daily runs are ~25-100nm. Think this is around average for my subset.. So totally agree H is tremendously inefficient. But the energy initial generation is green. Even wasting 80% the remaining 20% is just as green and would allow truckers or recreational boaters to not change their programs provided filling stations were available. The experience would be the same as with carbon based fuels. Stop every 500-800 m (if on land) or 1000-3000nm (if on water). Fill up in minutes and carry on.
Agree H is inefficient (but so is gasoline/diesel). All internal combustion engines are inefficient. Fuel cells as well with the added burden of NO release if run at more efficient higher temperatures. H has the added inefficiency of generation. But the nearly one for one transfer to H as a human experience is compelling.
See urban and short haul -EV predominates
Long haul small to moderate size -hybrid parallel biodiesel or H and E.(trucks and most marine). Solar a supplement for low load house requirements.
Long haul and large- pure electric (trains) wind assisted H (ships) with primary fuel undetermined but it’s here H is in the running unless battery technology has a paradigm shifting breakthrough. Can we agree it’s here (15-20% of the problem) that’s quite problematic. H based propulsion has been actively developing for this application even before the current bill for a reason.

That would both address CO2, forms of oxidized N and particulates. Truly hope the current bill passes. Seems smart to not put all your eggs in one basket.
Hippocampus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2022, 09:23 AM   #134
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 12,358
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art View Post
I'm posting to be sure to stay on this thread. Lots to add... but time not available right now. Still have 2.5 pages of posts to consume in order to get full gist of members' outlook, input, issues. Cheers! Art
OK - Regarding my post #126 above... 4AM Sat [7/30] I found time and cruised through this entire thread. Lots of good reasoning, plenty good suggestions. But O' My... what to do now??!!

Like it is:

Refill-Mobile-Energy Source = Any type of energy that can be separated and repeatedly placed into small containers to energize any form of work related equipment [motors/engines/heaters/lasers and the like] while a vehicle/machine/operation independently functions at standstill or while moving.

Example: For vehicles, equipment and operations - fuel tanks and batteries are both refill mobile-energy containers.

Stationary-Energy Source = i.e., The entire "Power Grid"... which in reality includes... all forms of large scale energy manufacturing to use at standstill sites and also used to fill-up millions of refill mobile-energy containers [e.g., mass wind power, ocean waves, nuclear/diesel/NG/waterflow electric generators, solar farms, and all liquid fuel manufacturers... etc].

Soooo - here we are... 8 +/- billion humans requiring multitudes of many energy forms to make "our" 21st Century lives function; in the way[s] we "deem" necessary. And... here are Earth's natural conditions that require the previously [before humanity got into the mix] well tuned aptitude of expression for ongoing four season life enchasing/supporting climate conditions. BTW, as a side note... Earth's current four season climate effect had "naturally" stabilized itself some 12,000 years ago. Before that Earth's climate was not as hospitable to life in general. And, because of that life enchasing environmental stabilization effect we humans were provided opportunity to get where we are today. That Is: In dire need to perform a civilization-wide readjust to meet/coincide with Earth's natural needs apparent.

FACT 1: Planet Earth's life-giving natural endeavors primarily work on a "Full-Cycle" basis.
FACT 2: Human endeavors primarily work on a use and discard "Non-Cycle" basis. [Consume: To do away with completely].
FACT 3: Humans have but a few years remaining to figure out how to get most if not all energy sources into a "Full-Cycle" basis that can coincide with Earth's very nature. Specifically for STOPPING global climate warming... and during the next portion of 20th Century even reducing the annual global climate temperature ever so slightly.

We can do this and we must do this... before all hell breaks loose once climate warming has increased to the level where [due to too much warming] Trade Winds, Jet Stream and Oceanic Currents alter their trajectories substantially enough so they become "confused" while all three "automatically" break out of their 12.000 year positions/patterns; and, then spend thousands of years to get back into some sort of annually regulated positions.

Absolute most predominant immediately required item to STOP global climate warming is to pull enough CO2 out of Atmosphere. My company, along with several associate organizations, are all working feverously to help accomplish this task.

During this endeavor and for many decades thereafter the [atmospherically retrieved] sequestered/stored CO2 will be utilized for production of a myriad of profit producing "green" products. Many of these products' contents will act a sort of CO2 sequestration vehicle.

In addition to that: There is a most wonderful Full-Cycle, Carbon Neutral liquid hydrocarbon fuel-source being developed for using the captured CO2 that will provide fungible, drop-in gasoline, diesel and jet fuels.

Full-Cycle is the name of Earth's Natural Game. For civilization to secure its future wellbeing of life on Earth... We must learn to play along with Earth's nature by making all we produce and use Full-Cycle!

Cheers! - Art
Art is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2022, 09:37 AM   #135
Guru
 
backinblue's Avatar
 
City: Stratford, CT
Vessel Name: Blue Moon
Vessel Model: Mainship Pilot 355
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 3,627
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art View Post
OK - Regarding my post #126 above... 4AM Sat [7/30] I found time and cruised through this entire thread. Lots of good reasoning, plenty good suggestions. But O' My... what to do now??!!

Like it is:

Refill-Mobile-Energy Source = Any type of energy that can be separated and repeatedly placed into small containers to energize any form of work related equipment [motors/engines/heaters/lasers and the like] while a vehicle/machine/operation independently functions at standstill or while moving.

Example: For vehicles, equipment and operations - fuel tanks and batteries are both refill mobile-energy containers.

Stationary-Energy Source = i.e., The entire "Power Grid"... which in reality includes... all forms of large scale energy manufacturing to use at standstill sites and also used to fill-up millions of refill mobile-energy containers [e.g., mass wind power, ocean waves, nuclear/diesel/NG/waterflow electric generators, solar farms, and all liquid fuel manufacturers... etc].

Soooo - here we are... 8 +/- billion humans requiring multitudes of many energy forms to make "our" 21st Century lives function; in the way[s] we "deem" necessary. And... here are Earth's natural conditions that require the previously [before humanity got into the mix] well tuned aptitude of expression for ongoing four season life enchasing/supporting climate conditions. BTW, as a side note... Earth's current four season climate effect had "naturally" stabilized itself some 12,000 years ago. Before that Earth's climate was not as hospitable to life in general. And, because of that life enchasing environmental stabilization effect we humans were provided opportunity to get where we are today. That Is: In dire need to perform a civilization-wide readjust to meet/coincide with Earth's natural needs apparent.

FACT 1: Planet Earth's life-giving natural endeavors primarily work on a "Full-Cycle" basis.
FACT 2: Human endeavors primarily work on a use and discard "Non-Cycle" basis. [Consume: To do away with completely].
FACT 3: Humans have but a few years remaining to figure out how to get most if not all energy sources into a "Full-Cycle" basis that can coincide with Earth's very nature. Specifically for STOPPING global climate warming... and during the next portion of 20th Century even reducing the annual global climate temperature ever so slightly.

We can do this and we must do this... before all hell breaks loose once climate warming has increased to the level where [due to too much warming] Trade Winds, Jet Stream and Oceanic Currents alter their trajectories substantially enough so they become "confused" while all three "automatically" break out of their 12.000 year positions/patterns; and, then spend thousands of years to get back into some sort of annually regulated positions.

Absolute most predominant immediately required item to STOP global climate warming is to pull enough CO2 out of Atmosphere. My company, along with several associate organizations, are all working feverously to help accomplish this task.

During this endeavor and for many decades thereafter the [atmospherically retrieved] sequestered/stored CO2 will be utilized for production of a myriad of profit producing "green" products. Many of these products' contents will act a sort of CO2 sequestration vehicle.

In addition to that: There is a most wonderful Full-Cycle, Carbon Neutral liquid hydrocarbon fuel-source being developed for using the captured CO2 that will provide fungible, drop-in gasoline, diesel and jet fuels.

Full-Cycle is the name of Earth's Natural Game. For civilization to secure its future wellbeing of life on Earth... We must learn to play along with Earth's nature by making all we produce and use Full-Cycle!

Cheers! - Art
All good Art, only problem is you are preaching to the choir. Try convincing China and India and Africa the same. Problem is that many nations are still underdeveloped. As clean as we are in the US, our carbon output PER CAPTIA is among the highest globally. That's not because we are not efficient, it's becaue we are the most developed country in the world. I don't hold out much hope that other developing contries are going to do so in a green and renewable fashion, which gets back to the point that this is a GLOBAL problem, not a US problem.
__________________
“In my walks, every man I meet is my superior in some way, and in that I learn from him.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson
backinblue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2022, 09:44 AM   #136
Guru
 
twistedtree's Avatar
 
City: Walkabout Creek
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 8,631
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hippocampus View Post
So totally agree H is tremendously inefficient. But the energy initial generation is green. Even wasting 80% the remaining 20% is just as green and would allow truckers or recreational boaters to not change their programs provided filling stations were available.

I'll just focus on this one point which is true if the initial generation is indeed green. But currently only a small percentage of generated electricity is green. If 100% were green, then wasting 80% of it to gain operational range where that's important makes sense. But reality is that we have mixed power sources, and will for a very long time. I think/hope the mix will continue to shift towards greener sources, but in the mean time I think we are all better off using the electricity we generate as efficiently as possible, and using fossil fuels where we really need the operating range and refuel time that is required.
__________________
MVTanglewood.com
twistedtree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2022, 10:13 AM   #137
Guru
 
mvweebles's Avatar
 
City: Saint Petersburg
Vessel Name: Weebles
Vessel Model: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 5,170
Quote:
Originally Posted by backinblue View Post
OK I admit that my wording could have been better, but I stand by what I said. Only a small percentage of drivers drive more than 100 miles at a time (which could be supported, albeit poorly, by "most people never"). In fact, 60% of trips ar 6 miles or less.



https://www.energy.gov/sites/default...?itok=n91e1p-w
Not to derail too much, but obviously not reality in the American West. At my summer place in the mountains of Colorado, I am 40 miles from a Costco, nearest home depot is 30 miles. Last weekend we drove 300 miles into Wyoming to spend a few days helping a friend who's building a cabin on his family's 6000 acre/120 year old homestead/ranch. I was one fitting short of completing his propane installation. 120 miles round trip to Rawlins for a $10 part.

Anyone who thinks electric or anything else is going to displace energy density of dead dinosaurs anytime soon is myopic. Not just planes, trains, ships, heavy equipment, tracrors, and trucks. But there are a lot of people who live in rural places. That said, solar and wind power are very popular in rural locations. Virtually every water tank for stock has been powered by wind for 150 years, more recently solar.

I am a huge proponent of solar. But for powerboats? Great use-case for sailboats. Powerboats? Absent a tech breakthrough, won't happen to any appreciable degree. The Duffys are about it.

Peter

Peter
__________________
M/V Weebles
1970 Willard 36 Sedan Trawler
mvweebles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2022, 10:23 AM   #138
Guru
 
backinblue's Avatar
 
City: Stratford, CT
Vessel Name: Blue Moon
Vessel Model: Mainship Pilot 355
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 3,627
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvweebles View Post
Not to derail too much, but obviously not reality in the American West. At my summer place in the mountains of Colorado, I am 40 miles from a Costco, nearest home depot is 30 miles. Last weekend we drove 300 miles into Wyoming to spend a few days helping a friend who's building a cabin on his family's 6000 acre/120 year old homestead/ranch. I was one fitting short of completing his propane installation. 120 miles round trip to Rawlins for a $10 part.

Anyone who thinks electric or anything else is going to displace energy density of dead dinosaurs anytime soon is myopic. Not just planes, trains, ships, heavy equipment, tracrors, and trucks. But there are a lot of people who live in rural places. That said, solar and wind power are very popular in rural locations. Virtually every water tank for stock has been powered by wind for 150 years, more recently solar.

I am a huge proponent of solar. But for powerboats? Great use-case for sailboats. Powerboats? Absent a tech breakthrough, won't happen to any appreciable degree. The Duffys are about it.

Peter

Peter
With respect Peter (sincerely), electric cars don't work for every single use case. For someone like you, it is likely much more convenient to use gas. I was just making a point that "most" people drive a few dozen miles a day and can easily top off at night at home and start every day with a full battery. They may never need to go to a charging station and obviously never buy gas. Agree it's not perfect for everybody and all situations, but I've come to accept that it is a good alternative to many, although the purchase price is still out of reach for the majority. Even if the price is not much higher than gas cars, and fuel is cheaper and there are incentives, many people cannot afford a cheap new gas car, let alone electric.
__________________
“In my walks, every man I meet is my superior in some way, and in that I learn from him.” ― Ralph Waldo Emerson
backinblue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2022, 11:04 AM   #139
Guru
 
mvweebles's Avatar
 
City: Saint Petersburg
Vessel Name: Weebles
Vessel Model: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 5,170
Quote:
Originally Posted by backinblue View Post
With respect Peter (sincerely), electric cars don't work for every single use case. For someone like you, it is likely much more convenient to use gas. I was just making a point that "most" people drive a few dozen miles a day and can easily top off at night at home and start every day with a full battery. They may never need to go to a charging station and obviously never buy gas. Agree it's not perfect for everybody and all situations, but I've come to accept that it is a good alternative to many, although the purchase price is still out of reach for the majority. Even if the price is not much higher than gas cars, and fuel is cheaper and there are incentives, many people cannot afford a cheap new gas car, let alone electric.
I agree with you. Because many households are two car families, an EV for a second vehicle makes a lot of sense for the reasons you state. We are trying to get to a single vehicle just to declutter so an EV is not in our future, but a plug-in hybrid might be.

I have to say, the recent posts in the Greeline thread that showed drone footage of a Greenline blowing up was sobering. Yes, different battery chemistry, but between the explosion and the couple owners complaining that Greenline was unresponsive about batteries dying within a few years, plus the inherent challenges with energy density, I just don't know what there is to talk about re: electric boats on a trawler forum. Sure, there are concept boats out there. But nothing that's even remotely available for early adopters in our class of boats without significant compromise and expense and uncertainty.

Peter
__________________
M/V Weebles
1970 Willard 36 Sedan Trawler
mvweebles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2022, 11:06 AM   #140
Guru
 
kthoennes's Avatar
 
City: Sioux Falls, South Dakota
Vessel Name: Xanadu
Vessel Model: Mainship 37 Motor Yacht
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 2,170
We live in South Dakota so I'm pretty much of Peter's same mindset, but even if we lived in a high density area, here's what I always wonder in discussions like this when driving habit statistics start to fly: okay, say you live in a Chicago suburb and you drive low-mile trips 90% of the time. What to you do the other 10%? Drive to visit grandma in Des Moines, or a family weekend somewhere, so then what? Have a second, internal combustion car sitting in the garage in reserve for 10% of your trips? Rent one? Elaborate trip planning to map refilling or charging? Right now we get in our cars and go, 1 mile or 1000 miles, and never think twice. That's incredible freedom and versatility. The masses are not going to surrender that easily, even if they did want to spend two year's salary on a Tesla and have two cars in the garage.

We're not representative of the general population on this forum I know, but when these discussions pop up about innovative or green tech, I think to myself, right, stand in a Walmart parking lot and tell a single mother loading her old minivan with groceries that she needs to buy a hydrogen powered car.
kthoennes is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Trawler Port Captains
Port Captains are TF volunteers who can serve as local guides or assist with local arrangements and information. Search below to locate Port Captains near your destination. To learn more about this program read here: TF Port Captain Program





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:54 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012