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Old 05-03-2021, 11:07 PM   #61
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“These “vaccines” have yet to be peer reviewed and published (which is the standard for new medications, (after the double blinded, randomized and controlled study/studies). What does that mean? It means that they have not completed the studies. “ from your post.

This is not a true statement. They have been extensively peered reviewed. Licensing trials were standard controlled trials done the same as for any vaccine. . Please do a literature search ( suggest Medpub/medline ) or read the innumerable published reports that went into the CDC/ NIH reviews and those leading to FDA emergency approval.

Please cite a source for your “50%” statistic.

Please share your qualifications for your opinion. I’ve done so early. It would lend gravitas to your beliefs imho.
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Old 05-03-2021, 11:20 PM   #62
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Old 05-03-2021, 11:31 PM   #63
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mRNA Half-life

“The average half-life of human mRNA is 10 hours with human mRNA half-lives varying between 30 minutes and 24 hours.” From sciencing

As explained earlier mRNA is destroyed after it is transcribed. Even viral or manufactured mRNA is destroyed. It does not persist in humans unless you have a persistent infection. Even then it’s destroyed but the infection causes more to be made. mRNA used in vaccines translate into a spike protein not the genome of the virus. It has no ability to persist.

So on what basis are you concerned about long term side effects? Can you offer any scientific or biological reason for your concern? Please explain? If it’s just that they’re new please realize the biology of them is most reassuring.
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Old 05-03-2021, 11:32 PM   #64
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You missed the context of the post. The discussion was about the vaccine “could” be considered a medical device, not people. Some people here seem to think opinions are facts.

I never said they “were” medical devices. mRNA “vaccines” are using manipulated RNA for a desired effect on the human body, therefore they “could” be considered medical devices. They have not been deemed as such to date.
Context missed duly noted...reading too fast between yard projects.

Still interested, however, for you to point out where in the link you provided...

https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/...medical-device

...that it suggests Covid-19 vaccines could be considered medical devices.
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Old 05-04-2021, 12:00 AM   #65
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Should mention the over representation of populations initially resistant to any vaccine such as black and brown people working in nursing homes. Should also mention the progressive increase in vaccine acceptance in those groups. Once you look at institutions such as tertiary hospitals rates are 80% or better in those have been studied. May want to dissect your quoted percentage. When was the study done? Who was included in the the study? What group said they wouldn’t ever vaccinate? Did you segregate out people with medical contraindications or pregnancy concerns?
This why I asked for a citation. The demographics and education of many healthcare workers who choose not to vaccinate seems to be similar to that of the general public. Fortunately, there’s continuing improvement in those numbers. For the general public resistance seems to be persisting. One can expect the same in those people in healthcare with similar backgrounds.
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Old 05-04-2021, 04:57 AM   #66
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5 things you should know about variants.
By Bill Gates | March 31, 2021

https://www.gatesnotes.com/Health/5-...about-variants

On reading it, one gets the feeling of having read that already in the thread Understanding the Coronavirus #2
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Old 05-04-2021, 09:58 AM   #67
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Greetings,

...You have to get a shot into a good percentage of 7.9 BILLION people. Even IF there were enough vaccines to go around, the time frame is astronomical, IMO.
...
The WHO can only recommend best practices it has absolutely NO authority to enforce anything. Given the seemingly indecisive manner with which the initial pandemic was announced, it's no wonder people are questioning the situation and justifying their views with internet quackery.
Only about half of the worlds population is connected to the internet. So much of the world will have to question and justify their views on old tried and true methods of quackery.

Some of these are people who saw first hand the effects of Ebola, and still accused and attacked medical workers. People who consistently lose their children to malaria, cholera, and dysentery. Did you know that tuberculosis, typhoid and diphtheria are still around? Oh, and AIDS...

In fact, if you aren't connected to the internet, COVID might be a pretty hard sell to some of these people. Even from the WHO.

“It’s likely that excess malaria mortality is larger than direct covid-19 mortality,” said Pedro Alonso, director of WHO’s malaria programme. Malaria killed 409 000 people in 2019 and 411 000 in 2018, most of them babies and toddlers in sub-Saharan Africa. A 10% disruption in access to antimalarial treatment could lead to 19 000 additional deaths there this year, WHO warned. More plausible disruptions of 25% or 50% in the region could result in an additional 46 000 or 100 000 deaths, respectively. The total number of covid-19 deaths recorded so far in sub-Saharan Africa is just under 30 000, of which more than two thirds occurred in South Africa

Source: https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4711

I have some friends that are Congolese refugees. You should see some of the stuff they share with me that goes around on the African internet! Would make a National Enquirer "journalist" blush. I also work with quite a few mainland Chinese immigrants. Much of what they share back and forth with their families is self censored, and discussion is very nuanced. So even the internets have varying degrees of maturity (immaturity?) on how information is communicated.

So yeah, there are some big challenges ahead if we want to eradicate a disease that, so far, has affected predominately wealthier countries.
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Old 05-04-2021, 10:25 AM   #68
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“These “vaccines” have yet to be peer reviewed and published (which is the standard for new medications, (after the double blinded, randomized and controlled study/studies). What does that mean? It means that they have not completed the studies. “ from your post.

This is not a true statement. They have been extensively peered reviewed. Licensing trials were standard controlled trials done the same as for any vaccine. . Please do a literature search ( suggest Medpub/medline ) or read the innumerable published reports that went into the CDC/ NIH reviews and those leading to FDA emergency approval.

Please cite a source for your “50%” statistic.

Please share your qualifications for your opinion. I’ve done so early. It would lend gravitas to your beliefs imho.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/healt...covid-vaccine/

https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/947813

2 second search.
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Old 05-04-2021, 10:28 AM   #69
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“These “vaccines” have yet to be peer reviewed and published (which is the standard for new medications, (after the double blinded, randomized and controlled study/studies). What does that mean? It means that they have not completed the studies. “ from your post.

This is not a true statement. They have been extensively peered reviewed. Licensing trials were standard controlled trials done the same as for any vaccine. . Please do a literature search ( suggest Medpub/medline ) or read the innumerable published reports that went into the CDC/ NIH reviews and those leading to FDA emergency approval.

Please cite a source for your “50%” statistic.

Please share your qualifications for your opinion. I’ve done so early. It would lend gravitas to your beliefs imho.
Please send me a link where these studies have been sent to be published. Peer review happens officially when a study is completed and sent for publication. I really want to read these studies but I have yet seen them published.

As far as I know these studies have not been independently reviewed. Only by governmental entities. That is not peer reviewed.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...ve%20reviewers.
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Old 05-04-2021, 11:38 AM   #70
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https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04470427

I won’t do your homework T but here’s one. Please do your own search. I previous suggested search engines to use or you can parse through NIH for each type of vaccine you want to look at. Still, all had standard phase 3 trials which were controlled and peered reviewed. Also look in the the New England Journal of Medicine among many other non government independent journals (Virology, Lancet, BMJ, JAMA etc.) as they have published peer review articles which in sum cover all of the western vaccines in current use. Your statement isn’t factual. Should mention unless you have a paid subscription to the journal or pay for a search engine that has access to that journal or paid the one time fee to see that article you won’t have access to any article in any medical journal. That’s why you don’t have open source access. Doesn’t matter if it’s an article about foot fungus in Dermatology, incontinence in OB/GYN or vaccines. With some diligence you can read the abstracts which hopefully will suffice for your purposes.

I was a principal investigator for trial totally paid for by NIH. The investigators were/are not salaried employees of the government. Rather they are clinicians and academics employed and or funded by independent institutions. You do a trial and then move on to the next. Where you get your funds varies with each trial. For these trials I expect the administration involved full time federal employees but investigators were from pharma, independent institutions and clinicians. Statistical analysis is done independently of the funding entity’s input and the human research board is of course totally independent. The trials I’ve done with full or part governmental funding have been every bit as rigorous as those funded by private sources. Respectfully think your concern isn’t justified.

T please reread post# 65. If you want to base your personal decisions on the judgment of personal care assistants and other low skilled workers have a good time. Although a excellent group of people they like the general public are subjected with disinformation and misinformation so reflect that sorry state of affairs. Among my physician friends and acquaintances all are vaccinated. Among my wife’s RN friends some were not. After chatting with me and others that number has fallen dramatically. It’s encouraging as borne out by the very high vaccination rates in the staffs of tertiary hospitals the more people are educated about the facts concerning vaccines the more choose to vaccinate. I sincerely hope you do so.
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Old 05-04-2021, 11:43 AM   #71
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I don't believe this statement is true. They are vaccines and are regulated by the FDA as vaccines.

I also don't believe they would be considered to be 'gene therapy' either.

From the Mayo Clinic's website:
Messenger RNA (mRNA) vaccine. This type of vaccine uses genetically engineered mRNA to give your cells instructions for how to make a harmless piece of the S protein found on the surface of the COVID-19 virus. After vaccination, your immune cells begin making the S protein pieces and displaying them on cell surfaces. This causes your body to create antibodies. If you become infected with the COVID-19 virus, these antibodies will fight the virus.

After the mRNA helps your cells make the protein pieces, the mRNA is immediately broken down. It never enters the nucleus of your cells, where your DNA is kept. Both the Pfizer-BioNTech and the Moderna COVID-19 vaccines use mRNA.

Jim
I am not responding to disagree but just food for thought.

Here several links that define vaccine and I found it interesting that none involve the use of modified mRNA.

https://www.medicinenet.com/vaccination/definition.htm

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/vaccine

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us...nglish/vaccine

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/...nglish/vaccine
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Old 05-04-2021, 11:58 AM   #72
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Greetings,
What on earth do the last 5 or 6 posts have to do with distribution? You know, the TOPIC????


If y'all are going to get into a willy-waving competition, this thread will be closed like the OTHER 3 or 4 threads that DID deal with cause and effects.


Let me ask a basic question: I want to give everyone or most everyone in the world $1. How do I do it? Forget about pandemics or vaccine/non vaccines. Just a simple 1 dollar bill.
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Old 05-04-2021, 12:04 PM   #73
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Apologies RTF and I have deleted several of my last posts. They were attempts to clarify the regulation of vaccines, but I would agree were not about the distribution of these vaccines.

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Old 05-04-2021, 12:04 PM   #74
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I gave you a current definition in a prior post. I don’t use a sexton much anymore either. Please accept language moves on as knowledge increases. Some prior definitions are now archaic or not inclusive in current common usage.
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Old 05-04-2021, 12:22 PM   #75
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Greetings,
What on earth do the last 5 or 6 posts have to do with distribution? You know, the TOPIC????


If y'all are going to get into a willy-waving competition, this thread will be closed like the OTHER 3 or 4 threads that DID deal with cause and effects.


Let me ask a basic question: I want to give everyone or most everyone in the world $1. How do I do it? Forget about pandemics or vaccine/non vaccines. Just a simple 1 dollar bill.
You would only succeed if people perceived the dollar bill as a net benefit. For many, it wouldn't be worth the effort.

It's as much of a "sales" problem as it is a distribution problem.

Same problem with any vaccine.

Others may be suspicious of your motives.

Unfortunately, but also, not unfounded, is the lack of trust by many in emerging nations, as well as developed nations.

The currency of trust has been devalued by many of the world "leaders" of late. Transactional relationships have been very one-sided.

I would also imagine that there is considerable pressure among silk road nation recipients to accept a Chinese vaccine. There may be another RT Firefly wanting to give everyone in the world 7 Renminbi. Or, for that matter, another giving out 75 rubles...

We may well inadvertently divvy the world up by vaccination passports. Or this may be, by some countries, intentionally.
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Old 05-04-2021, 12:28 PM   #76
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Returning to the original thrust of this thread. As seen by the recent diversion you need both distribution but also acceptance of the vaccine. T is not alone and I believe it’s very worthwhile for him to air his concerns and hopefully this community alleviate them. Would ask the administration of this site to remain tolerant of these occurrences. They are to the public good and this thread has been polite, respectful and civil.

If you look at the world at large you see a multiplicity of obstacles that won’t be addressed by simply increasing available vaccine doses to non industrialized countries. Several excellent points have been made by other posters.
Prioritization of concerns. Africa was used as an example but any country where food insecurity exists (Central America, parts of south east Asia, areas of mass migration from local wars etc.) getting vaccinated maybe the least of these folks concerns.
Lack of elementary infrastructure. Unfortunately, this may remain a major concern for India. Know little of this country but from medical colleagues who where borne there access and skill set of health care providers varies dramatically depending on your income and loacale.
Logistics. Many vaccines cannot be left at ambient temperature except for a very brief period . This is a particular concern in dissemination into the heart land of a country without a good road system, electrical grid, skilled workers and central logistical planning.
It does no good for CoVAX to have vaccine but be unable to get it into peoples arms.
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Old 05-04-2021, 01:05 PM   #77
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Greetings,
Mr. BK. "The world should help vaccinate India." India is the fourth largest producer of COVID vaccines. As of March 17th it has exported 65% of it's production. So profits over domestic protection and the world should help with this?
https://www.axios.com/covid-coronavi...2375beb44.html
Sounds to me like the Indian government should be more involved in controlling exports.

I'm really surprised at the low numbers reported for Russia's Sputnik vaccine, 11.8m doses as of 3/17/21!

I don't really know much about COVAX, but would suspect that due to bilateral prepurchase contracts, vaccines go into production much earlier in the testing phases? It doesn't address who gets the vaccines, but wouldn't this lead to much more doses being available at vaccine approval?

Jim
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Old 05-04-2021, 01:22 PM   #78
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What’s striking is China remains the leading producer. This is not unnoticed by the world at large. As previously alluded to the US for geopolitical reasons having little to do with the cloak of humanitarianism should seek to address this state of affairs urgently.
Both here and in so many aspects of our nation’s future ascendency in biotech is our means to maintain our position in the world.
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Old 05-04-2021, 02:00 PM   #79
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Returning to the original thrust of this thread. As seen by the recent diversion you need both distribution but also acceptance of the vaccine. T is not alone and I believe it’s very worthwhile for him to air his concerns and hopefully this community alleviate them. Would ask the administration of this site to remain tolerant of these occurrences. They are to the public good and this thread has been polite, respectful and civil.

If you look at the world at large you see a multiplicity of obstacles that won’t be addressed by simply increasing available vaccine doses to non industrialized countries. Several excellent points have been made by other posters.
Prioritization of concerns. Africa was used as an example but any country where food insecurity exists (Central America, parts of south east Asia, areas of mass migration from local wars etc.) getting vaccinated maybe the least of these folks concerns.
Lack of elementary infrastructure. Unfortunately, this may remain a major concern for India. Know little of this country but from medical colleagues who where borne there access and skill set of health care providers varies dramatically depending on your income and loacale.
Logistics. Many vaccines cannot be left at ambient temperature except for a very brief period . This is a particular concern in dissemination into the heart land of a country without a good road system, electrical grid, skilled workers and central logistical planning.
It does no good for CoVAX to have vaccine but be unable to get it into peoples arms.
Very well said.

I would agree this thread has been polite, respectful and civil.
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Old 05-05-2021, 09:51 AM   #80
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Greetings,
What on earth do the last 5 or 6 posts have to do with distribution? You know, the TOPIC????

If y'all are going to get into a willy-waving competition, this thread will be closed like the OTHER 3 or 4 threads that DID deal with cause and effects.

By Bill Gates | March 31, 2021.
5 things you should know about variants.
https://www.gatesnotes.com/Health/5-things-you-should-know-about-variants

Sir, you missed the paragraph #4

4. Variants make it even more important that vaccines are made available everywhere.
COVID-19 anywhere is a threat to health everywhere. That’s true with the original virus, and it’s true when it comes to variants.

The more the virus that causes COVID-19 is out there in the world, the more opportunities it has to evolve—and to develop new ways of fighting our defenses against it. If we don’t get the vaccine out to every corner of the planet, we’ll have to live with the possibility that a much worse strain of the virus will emerge. We could even see a new variant emerge that evades existing vaccines altogether.

No one wants that to happen. The best way to make sure it doesn’t is by getting the vaccine out to everyone who needs it, no matter where they live. That’s why our foundation is working with governments, vaccine manufacturers, organizations like CEPI and Gavi, the Vaccine Alliance, and others to deliver COVID-19 vaccines to low-income countries through an initiative called COVAX.

COVAX recently announced that it’ll be able to deliver 300 million doses by mid-2021. That’s great news, but the world is going to need a lot more if we’re going to truly stamp out the threat of COVID-19. I hope rich world countries continue to support COVAX’s work, even as life starts to get back to normal in some parts of the world over the summer.



With no disrespect to you as you are a man of great conviction and principle, I don't think my last post was off-topic; you took no account of the linkages between emergence of new variants, prioritizing production of COVID-19 vaccines, and urging distribution. There are many pieces in the puzzle; it is crucial to see the larger picture.

We are no longer in 2020 with a single dominant strain. The current virus is not static, a distinction which makes the argument of a fast and global distribution of vaccines even stronger. Rapid access to vaccines is more important than ever as new variants emerge; any delays to worldwide vaccine access will only prolong the pandemic. Without strengthened international collaboration on ensuring equitable access to COVID-19 vaccines, the pandemic is likely to be prolonged globally, tragically increasing the number of deaths and long-term ill, and reducing global economic output.

Everything, the causes, the effects, the consequences, the emergence of variants, the vaccine distribution, is linked together. If some countries only get access to a vaccine by 2024, as some estimates suggest, then the virus could rage in some populations and may mutate to an extent that it renders the existing vaccines less effective or, in the worst-case scenario, ineffective.

The topic of the thread is Vaccine Distribution. To me when I hear or see the words Vaccine Distribution, I think Vaccine Equity. What I would not like to see is greater inequality being driven by the inequality of a vaccine roll-out. Sadly this is really a possibility.
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