Travel to Canada right now

[SteveK]

Too bad Canada and the US with all the scientific advances are unable to provide a reliable user pay test for covid for those that desire to cross the border.
The once touted 15 minute test is not reliable, nor is the 7-14 day test for various reasons.
Even known infected apparently cannot infect while wearing a mask. We all understand monetary cost for not following a law, so make a law that includes large fines and/or jail time if caught ignoring guidelines set at the border for your travel into or through our countries.
If planes can once again fly with all seats filled then common sense suggests that private travel by land or water can also be accomodated.
It seems much easier to lock the door and throw away the key.

 

[firehoser75]

Steve,
Don't disagree with your logic, in a perfect world. However, we see everyday where people ignore or willingly break (or find "work arounds") health professionals' rules, laws, or guidelines in the area of Covid. Unfortunately common sense is not a gift, it is a punishment for those who have it as they have to put up with everyone who does not. It seems it is not "common" either.
If we all practised good hygiene (hand washing, etc.), social distancing, kept our social bubbles selective and small, and wore masks when necessary, we could probably mostly put the worst behind us. However, I see enough examples where this is not being done to know we will have issues with this for a while yet. For example, anchored in Prideaux Haven this year with all Canadian boats, there were many large rafts of boats (5, 6, 7, even 8 boats). At night there were large dinghy rafts with 20 or more people in close proximity to each other. cruising the anchorage, all drinking. No masks, no social distancing, and no "small social bubble". Lots of loud talking, laughing ,etc. (which may "project" droplets and particles further than breathing). Pretty much, "business as usual" with little to no regard to the pandemic.
Yes, the dinghy "parades" were outside, but people were very close to each other, so maybe not the best practise for a pandemic?
The idea of fines, etc. sounds good, but we don't have the resources to enforce or the easy means to collect. The courts could be very busy with people 'fighting" there "ticket"?? Could be some real pitfalls here I would think, especially the lack of resources to adequately "enforce" any laws regarding these health procedures.

I don't like having the border closed any more than most of you, but for now, it appears it won't open soon.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

If planes can once again fly with all seats filled then common sense suggests that private travel by land or water can also be accomodated.
It seems much easier to lock the door and throw away the key.

Excellent point Soo.

One could also state with all the riots going on with no masks there is no quarantine here either. Yet this is not addressed. The wearing of masks is a scam. Some Docs say they work, some Docs say they don't.

Hard to decide who to believe.

 

[C lectric]

The wearing of masks is a scam.


BALDERDASH

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. ASD. I find it impossible to believe that mask wearing is a scam. IMPOSSIBLE! I'm fully aware of the size of a virus AND the phenomenon of viral loading but masking-up has been practiced by the medical profession for at least 120 years specifically to prevent/minimize the infection of the patient and offer some protection to the medico.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Greetings,
Mr. ASD. I find it impossible to believe that mask wearing is a scam. IMPOSSIBLE! I'm fully aware of the size of a virus AND the phenomenon of viral loading but masking-up has been practiced by the medical profession for at least 120 years specifically to prevent/minimize the infection of the patient and offer some protection to the medico.

Sounds sensible to me. So why can't the medical community decide if the masts on the market today are effective? Some say they are, some say they are not.

Then you have to look at the money trail. Someone is getting rich on this.

 

[rslifkin]

With the cheap masks out there, I'd say there are definitely some that aren't as effective as the stuff used in medical settings. That said, a mask has to be pretty darn bad for it not to help.

So they're not a magic bullet, but in general, if most people are wearing them, it's enough to make it harder to spread any respiratory disease. It's very likely that transmission rates of the common cold, influenza, etc. are also being kept down by mask wearing and social distancing (although those are easier to control anyway, as you know sooner once you have it). I can say that out of everyone I know, far less people have been sick (with anything) since all of the restrictions, etc. from this started.

 

[SteveK]

Steve,
Don't disagree with your logic, in a perfect world. However, we see everyday where people ignore or willingly break (or find "work arounds") health professionals' rules, laws, or guidelines in the area of Covid. Unfortunately common sense is not a gift, it is a punishment for those who have it as they have to put up with everyone who does not. It seems it is not "common" either.
If we all practised good hygiene (hand washing, etc.), social distancing, kept our social bubbles selective and small, and wore masks when necessary, we could probably mostly put the worst behind us. However, I see enough examples where this is not being done to know we will have issues with this for a while yet. For example, anchored in Prideaux Haven this year with all Canadian boats, there were many large rafts of boats (5, 6, 7, even 8 boats). At night there were large dinghy rafts with 20 or more people in close proximity to each other. cruising the anchorage, all drinking. No masks, no social distancing, and no "small social bubble". Lots of loud talking, laughing ,etc. (which may "project" droplets and particles further than breathing). Pretty much, "business as usual" with little to no regard to the pandemic.
Yes, the dinghy "parades" were outside, but people were very close to each other, so maybe not the best practise for a pandemic?
The idea of fines, etc. sounds good, but we don't have the resources to enforce or the easy means to collect. The courts could be very busy with people 'fighting" there "ticket"?? Could be some real pitfalls here I would think, especially the lack of resources to adequately "enforce" any laws regarding these health procedures.

I don't like having the border closed any more than most of you, but for now, it appears it won't open soon.

Actually, for those that claim to travel through to AK we can offer ankle bracelets, extreme, but a solution.
My thoughts on this came from the freedom we have to travel east/west without restriction. I saw a caravan of vehicles including Uhauls (people moving) with Ontario license plates. I don't consider our southern distant cousins any higher risk than a group out of Ontario.

I heard a comment, unverified that 45% of the population is now under 40. Under 40 is also least affected by covid, but they say can infect others like us older folk. In all the crowded protests I have not seen many seniors. The trend seems to be to eliminate history and old timers are part of history.

 

[C lectric]

Masks are not a guarantee that one can't catch the virus.

It never fails that some one will figure a way to get rich from someone else's misery/misfortune.


But that is no reason to label mask wearing as a scam.

As RT and rslifkin point out masks have helped the medical community for a LONG, LONG time to keep from spreading their own infections to patients and or course the reverse.

THey CAN help us from spreading the virus by protecting ourselves from others and others from us. No guarantee though but a huge reduction of potential.

 

[Ka_sea_ta]

Masks are not a guarantee that one can't catch the virus.



But that is no reason to label mask wearing as a scam.

As RT and rslifkin point out masks have helped the medical community for a LONG, LONG time to keep from spreading their own infections to patients and or course the reverse.

THey CAN help us from spreading the virus by protecting ourselves from others and others from us. No guarantee though but a huge reduction of potential.

Not saying there isnt a benefit but whenever we went in a OR or a isolation room not only did we have masks (if it was contagious we wore PAPRs) we were also gowned up with shoe and head covering, eye protection and gloved. All the outer covering were immediately removed when we exited the area. A good immune system, reducing contact time and physical distancing is far more effective...

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Not saying there isnt a benefit but whenever we went in a OR or a isolation room not only did we have masks (if it was contagious we wore PAPRs) we were also gowned up with shoe and head covering, eye protection and gloved. All the outer covering were immediately removed when we exited the area. A good immune system, reducing contact time and physical distancing is far more effective...

No one has addressed the money trail. Why?

 

[Frosty]

I'm sure there are some people making money in some scammy way via the "money trail" when it comes to PPE, including masks.

BUT, that doesn't mean they don't work. They do.

(People sell snacks at ball games for insane prices, but they are still food. Scalpers make huge money on tickets, but the concerts are still good concerts.)

There are many reputable places making masks. In some cases they are shops that were doing something else (as in wartime). I went to one web shop yesterday of a company that normally makes bicycling gear, and is now making masks (right here in the USA).

Buy one from a responsible vendor, wear it, and help us get past this thing. There will always be people doing scams and directing money and opinions for their own benefit. But that doesn't necessarily mean the concept of the items is bad. Don't throw out the baby with the (scammy) bathwater.

 

[firehoser75]

From what I can figure out from the data, history of this pandemic, etc. is the whole mask debacle came about due to "officials" not wanting to admit their earlier mistakes. EG. they had not stockpiled anywhere close to enough medical supplies for this type of an event! Therefore, someone decided that it was best to misinform (or lie) to the public about the efficacy of mask use, and hyped the "danger angle", etc. to ensure that the public did not hoard masks and reduce the supply for medical providers (who really needed them - why because they do work (help)).

If they (many guilty parties in many countries) had been open and honest, and offered good advice regarding "home made" masks, and training in how to make and use them, the whole "uncertainty" could have been avoided totally. There is no way, no way, I will believe that in reality medical officials really believed that masks were dangerous or useless in the fight against this pandemic. The medical history of mask use by medical staff speaks otherwise.

Tom, the money. While I do believe that some less than moral individuals (companies) around the world, will try to make a large profit off of selling inferior products, most will not. Reasonable Profit, yes, unsafe products, no for most. Promoting the use of home made masks is not a very profitable enterprise.

We could ask the same questions regarding the various vaccines, drugs, etc. under study for this disease. Follow the money, and there are potentially large profits to be made. Personally, I suspect this has had an impact on some of the information coming out regarding HCQ and Ivermectin. There is little to no profit in those 2 drugs, while with some of the newly developed ones potential profits (if shown safe and with some positive effects) could be quite large. Money can definitely have an impact.

Just some thoughts.

 

[ghostrider454]

Before the SAR's epidemic, there were about 50 mfgrs of N95 masks. Now there are 3500 mfgrs - again all made in China that you can buy for $0.99 to $1.59 each. Let's just suppose that five employees of just one of the mfgrs is ill. They sneeze into the packaging and it's shipped to America. Everyone who comes in contact with the masks is now infected. And, so it spreads - just like a Cali wildfire.

 

[Frosty]

Let's just suppose that five employees of just one of the mfgrs is ill. They sneeze into the packaging and it's shipped to America. Everyone who comes in contact with the masks is now infected. And, so it spreads - just like a Cali wildfire.

I don't believe this is possible. The virus doesn't live for very long on a dry, fabric-type surface. If you want to be extra careful, put the mask in the sun for some hours, or wash and dry it.

Also, don't feel obligated to buy a mask made in China; there are many made in the US or Canada (or perhaps Greenland) now. Support your local businesses or, make your own (you can use fabric such as sheets and flannel that you already own and that were manufactured before the pandemic existed).

I think this kind of concept is very dangerous, as some people will believe it, not buy or wear a mask, and thus "spread it like wildfire" due to misinformation.

 

[firehoser75]

So use home made, or manufactured washable cloth masks. Not as effective as a proper N95 for protecting you, but does a good job of slowing the spread of the pandemic none the less.
Good post Frosty

 

[Ka_sea_ta]

This from the New England Journal of medicine...
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2006372




We know that wearing a mask outside health care facilities offers little, if any, protection from infection. Public health authorities define a significant exposure to Covid-19 as face-to-face contact within 6 feet with a patient with symptomatic Covid-19 that is sustained for at least a few minutes (and some say more than 10 minutes or even 30 minutes). The chance of catching Covid-19 from a passing interaction in a public space is therefore minimal. In many cases, the desire for widespread masking is a reflexive reaction to anxiety over the pandemic.

 

[firehoser75]

That is an older article that was written when there was real fear of running out of PPE for health care workers and many of the virus impacts were not yet known. They don't quote any data or studies to back up their statements. I cannot produce one right now, but I have read many sources (newer than that document) where mask use by the general public has been supported by many medical professionals now.
I have not seen one post here where people are stating that mask use should replace all other NPI's (non pharmaceutical interventions) such as distancing, hygiene, limiting social contacts, etc. Mask use (when appropriate like indoors, poor ventilation, poor distancing, etc.) should be used in addition to the other measures.

It is now documented that as many as 40% of Covid patients are Asymptomatic (and contagious) and that most patients are at their height of contagiousness prior to the onset of symptoms. You wear a mask to reduce the chance of infecting someone else. You wear a mask (less effective than reason 1) to protect yourself, and you wear a mask to minimize viral load should you unfortunately become infected. With a smaller initial viral load, a good immune system has the best chance of fighting off the infection with the least seriousness of disease impacts.

 

[sunchaser]

I'd venture a guess that if a new administration occurs some rational entry protocols will be set up on both sides.

 

[Ka_sea_ta]

Actually that article was published in May, well after the cases in the NE states had declined and before the number of cases in the Sun Belt states exploded... So the idea of a shortage of PPE just wasn't true at that time that article was written... This article just didn't fit the optics of the day. And to be clear I'm not opposed to wearing a mask I just question the overall effectiveness of wearing one. Sorta like coughing in to your shoulder.

 

[MurrayM]

..The wearing of masks is a scam. Some Docs say they work, some Docs say they don't...

A failure of modern news (real news...not news as entertainment) is having to cover both sides of an issue, and usually giving both sides equal time.

There could be 10,000 doctors or scientists who believe one thing, and a handful funded by the industry causing the problem who claim the opposite, yet both get pretty much equal time on the news.

Doctors who say that masks don't work (where appropriate, like in crowded indoor spaces will poor ventilation) will probably feel like this in a few years:

 

[firehoser75]

I understand your thoughts better now. Personally, without all of the studies, etc., I still think that for a very infectious respiratory disease that is now known to be spread by droplets and to some extent aerosolized, that any mask that could slow down and/or contain the droplets from a cough, sneeze, talking, etc. is better than nothing. Just seems logical, especially as this is what surgeons masks are for in OR.

Plus now there is support for other benefits.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. k. "We know that wearing a mask outside health care facilities offers little, if any, protection..." Sorry, no we don't.



From a later article clarifying YOUR link:


"We understand that some people are citing our Perspective article (published on April 1 at NEJM.org)1 as support for discrediting widespread masking. In truth, the intent of our article was to push for more masking, not less."


https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2020836

 

[Ka_sea_ta]

This is other side, procedure masks certainly are not that effective. N95 masks ( I can't recall ever seeing the paper type in the health system ) have to be fit tested, I had to shave my beard at the time (H1N1) and my have own fitted mask that would connect to the PAPr... In all honesty I think there is a much greater chance to pick up viral particles on your clothing or shoes, then inhaling them unless you 're not physical distancing....

 

[Ka_sea_ta]

Greetings,
Mr. k. "We know that wearing a mask outside health care facilities offers little, if any, protection..." Sorry, no we don't.



From a later article clarifying YOUR link:


"We understand that some people are citing our Perspective article (published on April 1 at NEJM.org)1 as support for discrediting widespread masking. In truth, the intent of our article was to push for more masking, not less."


https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2020836

That is true, they were pushing for more masking in healthcare environment... " and when you can't physical distance" that was added to fit the PC narrative in the follow up article ... my point is that masks are not an end all to preventing the spread of CV-19. And again I do wear one when indoors at a public venue.

 

[MurrayM]

In a move pretty much equivalent to Governor Cuomo and President Trump joining forces, Ontario Premier Doug Ford and Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau have split the costs to contract 3M to make N95 masks in Canada, which will stay in Canada. (We are dependant on foreign manufacturers, and at least one country tried to cancel our orders at the start of the pandemic).

https://www.recorder.ca/news/local-news/brockvilles-3m-plant-to-make-n95-masks

 

[Frosty]

In all honesty I think there is a much greater chance to pick up viral particles on your clothing or shoes, then inhaling them unless you 're not physical distancing....

That is possible, and there is no harm in being careful with paper and shoes. The difference is that the virus cannot enter through your feet or hands. So it has to go from shoes or paper (where it can't really continue to live), and then into your eyes, nose, or mouth.

Inhaling is a straight shot right to where the virus wants to go. Bingo!

(I read the articles about paper and shoes very carefully, because although I am not around people, I do get packages and wear shoes. From what I understand the place where they found viable virus on shoes was people walking around in ICU wards with COVID patients. And the tests where it stayed on paper, steel, etc. for days were very favorable to the virus in the experiment (more than real life.)

I'm still being careful about shoes AND paper, but that in no way makes me want to eschew masks. Pathway straight into my lungs, you BET I'm going to be protecting that. If I had to only pick one of those things to do, it would be mask all the way. The shoes and paper is probably just me being extra cautious, since I don't live in a hospital.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. k. "...masks are not an end all..." Agree 100% but IF they might reduce transmission by even 1%, I would think it's worth it. Those wee percentages (social distancing, hand washing, good hygienic practices etc.) DO add up.


I don't have occasion to get out much, no real reason to wander about but when I do, I haven't seen anyone in our area and indoors not masked.


It's a bit hard for me to actually hear what some people are saying (used to lip read a bit) but it's a small price to pay. Jimi and Eric pretty well did in my hearing years ago.

 

[Capt.Will]

Well in B C they finally put in fines for over crowding,and fines for promoters
2000$. and 200$ for persons not complying with government regulations,
its about time.Lets be responsible . Stay safe !

 

[Ken E.]

Jimi and Eric pretty well did in my hearing years ago.

Recall Jimi's intro to 'Voodoo Child", RT? I lost a lot of hearing on that one. Combined with Detroit diesels later in life, my hearing aids are on high setting.