Theodore Roosevelt Captain Being Reinstated

[menzies]

You seem to be missing the point as well as some others here. You can't run a Military where personnel use the media to effect whatever change they are trying to accomplish. That's why he had to go, doesn't matter his motives. He could have got what he wanted and Torpedo'd his career internally. He might have survived that. What's he gonna do next? Can't trust his judgement.

I'm not sure why this keeps coming up. It has been proven that he did not use the media. Someone else did however.

 

[HiDHo]

Might be a little Brown Shoe vs. Black Shoe going on too.

His email was addressed to "Fellow Naval Aviators".

The commander of the 7th Fleet wears dolphins and was omitted from the email.

Could be, but that battle was lost years ago when naval air got command of carriers. What is absolutely amazing is the Captain’s chancing his command of the carrier by breaking the c of c. Successful command of a carrier always leads to a star on his collar.

 

[psneeld]

Do we know for sure who leaked?

Why they did....as it isn't simple to those that haven't been there?

And if they were asked to for deniability of someone else?

 

[HiDHo]

“Unclassified “ could have been any number of people.

 

[rgano]

I'm not sure why this keeps coming up. It has been proven that he did not use the media. Someone else did however.

I commanded a US Navy vessel, and I will tell you right here without ANY hesitation that he darned well knew his letter would go public/press because that had to be hs express intention. No proof necessary because it is self-evident. That said, I am not altogether certain I would not have done the same!

 

[psneeld]

It rare for the average officer not to come to a situation or two in ones career where you have to decide between your career and your ethics/morality.

 

[Les_Garten]

I'm not sure why this keeps coming up. It has been proven that he did not use the media. Someone else did however.

He's not Rebecca of Sunny Brook farm. The reason he send this the way he did was plausible deniability when it leaked. It was a foregone conclusion this would happen. They know that and they didn't appreciate it. He knew that this would be basically in the clear.

 

[rgano]

It rare for the average officer not to come to a situation or two in ones career where you have to decide between your career and your ethics/morality.

Amen, and you can only hope it was a decision you could live with without regret. Because the drunken ass of a senior officer quickly slammed his door shut in my face after essentially calling me a liar, my raised fist hung in the air. His decision to not re-open the door when i called him out likely saved his life and me too. I still sometimes wish I had rid the Navy of this scumbag, but, whoa, would life ever be different today! Any number of times in 24 years I could have prevaricated or made an excuse or blamed somebody for some failure of personnel or equipment under my direction, but willingness to take the blame and truthful explanation of all circumstances including a plan to do better ensured my bosses always trusted me to succeed for them. By the time I elected retirement, I was selected to command a guided missile destroyer; so I think my recipe for success in navigating the sometimes dangerous ethical landscape of the US military is proven. One thing the Naval Academy instilled in me was that we were never allowed to answer a question with "I don't know." There were ONLY two acceptable answers, the correct answer, or "I'll find out, sir!" And we were honor-bound to return with that answer before the next meal. Non-Academy senior officers I served under were always impressed with that attitude, whilst those not so trained received less charming annual fitness reports than I. New officers nowadays receive even better ethics indoctrination than I did a hundred years ago.

 

[rgano]

He's not Rebecca of Sunny Brook farm. The reason he send this the way he did was plausible deniability when it leaked. It was a foregone conclusion this would happen. They know that and they didn't appreciate it. He knew that this would be basically in the clear.

Had he kept it to his chain of command rather than widely distributing it, AND it had been leaked, he would not have been relieved of command unless he admitted to sending it farther afield. But apparently earlier efforts were for naught. I don't blame him for what he did, and I would have no issue with his reinstatement or the continuation of the status quo. The real ass in this was the now former SecNav.

 

[Les_Garten]

Had he kept it to his chain of command rather than widely distributing it, AND it had been leaked, he would not have been relieved of command unless he admitted to sending it farther afield. But apparently earlier efforts were for naught. I don't blame him for what he did, and I would have no issue with his reinstatement or the continuation of the status quo. The real ass in this was the now former SecNav.

That Dude was about as clueless as clueless can get...

 

[syjos]

That Dude was about as clueless as clueless can get...

Anyone commanding an aircraft carrier can not be clueless. They rise through the ranks, constantly trained, tested, evaluated and watched. Plus they have to be an aviator and a mariner.

They are at the top of the game.

 

[dwhatty]

Anyone commanding an aircraft carrier can not be clueless. They rise through the ranks, constantly trained, tested, evaluated and watched. Plus they have to be an aviator and a mariner.

They are at the top of the game.

Yes indeed!

 

[Rufus]

Les was referring to SECNAV Modly, not Captain Crozier. That said, I disagree that SECNAV Modly was clueless...far from it.

 

[syjos]

Les was referring to SECNAV Modly, not Captain Crozier. That said, I disagree that SECNAV Modly was clueless...far from it.

Oops, thanks. Too late to edit.

 

[Les_Garten]

Anyone commanding an aircraft carrier can not be clueless. They rise through the ranks, constantly trained, tested, evaluated and watched. Plus they have to be an aviator and a mariner.

They are at the top of the game.

Go back and re-read what I was responding to. The acting SecNav

 

[Les_Garten]

Les was referring to SECNAV Modly, not Captain Crozier. That said, I disagree that SECNAV Modly was clueless...far from it.

He flew across the world to the carrier to announce that BS he spewed on the comm system to the crew that Brett Crozier was trying to save? Where Cpt Crozier had been canonized. You don't call that clueless?

When i heard that on the news, I said the exact same phrase that some of the crew said, "WTF"

He also took a bad situation, and since he was representing the Navy command, made them look like idiots.

If you don't know what he looks like or who he is, look in the Webster's unabridged under "Makes a bad situation worse"

 

[syjos]

Go back and re-read what I was responding to. The acting SecNav

Yes, someone else pointed out my error - post 74. Thanks.

 

[Rufus]

So, Crozier puts the Department of the Navy on report much to the delight of some of the crew who will always hate the Navy. In the process he canonizes himself and throws a wrench in good order and discipline on the ship. One look at the video of the crew members standing shoulder to shoulder (in the middle of a pandemic) and shouting Croziers name is very telling. If Crozier was a true leader and commander, he'd have turned around and ordered that mob to knock it off. Of course the press sucked it all up and made it their human interest story of the day...make that the month.

Mobly understood the situation and instead of sending a senior military officer to tell the ship's crew to shape up, he bucked up and did it himself. That took a lot of chutzpah considering how the press had hyped the canonized Crozier. Mobly's message regarding command and good order naturally got lost in the anti-Trump press spin. Crozier's groupies in the crew gave them an assist.

I do believe it was Mobly's Navy Department that had done all the prep work for arrival in Guam, and that had shifted forces to plug the gap left by the Roosevelt's departure. No, he wasn't clueless....maybe a lot pissed as Crozier had fired a broadside at the entire chain of command (without good cause from what I've read). Mobly shouldn't have resigned.

Does anybody know what Crozier's stand was regarding the early March port call in DaNang? In light of the already raging world pandemic, if he objected to that decision and/or cancelled all liberty and got the hell out of Dodge ASAP, I might change my mind about his concern for the crew and his lack of judgement.

 

[HiDHo]

I would guess Capt Crozier didn’t have much choice.

 

[JLD]

So, Crozier puts the Department of the Navy on report much to the delight of some of the crew who will always hate the Navy. In the process he canonizes himself and throws a wrench in good order and discipline on the ship. One look at the video of the crew members standing shoulder to shoulder (in the middle of a pandemic) and shouting Croziers name is very telling. If Crozier was a true leader and commander, he'd have turned around and ordered that mob to knock it off. Of course the press sucked it all up and made it their human interest story of the day...make that the month.

Mobly understood the situation and instead of sending a senior military officer to tell the ship's crew to shape up, he bucked up and did it himself. That took a lot of chutzpah considering how the press had hyped the canonized Crozier. Mobly's message regarding command and good order naturally got lost in the anti-Trump press spin. Crozier's groupies in the crew gave them an assist.

I do believe it was Mobly's Navy Department that had done all the prep work for arrival in Guam, and that had shifted forces to plug the gap left by the Roosevelt's departure. No, he wasn't clueless....maybe a lot pissed as Crozier had fired a broadside at the entire chain of command (without good cause from what I've read). Mobly shouldn't have resigned.

Does anybody know what Crozier's stand was regarding the early March port call in DaNang? In light of the already raging world pandemic, if he objected to that decision and/or cancelled all liberty and got the hell out of Dodge ASAP, I might change my mind about his concern for the crew and his lack of judgement.

Respectfully, I don't see this at all:

- Crozier's actions seem have been done for the sake of his crew and what most likely would lead to the loss of his command.

- Mobly's actions seem to have be done for the sake of his OWN personal career at the expense of those sailors on the ship.

To the question of whose action is more honorable, seems to be pretty evident to me.

Jim

 

[psneeld]

If one thinks any of the major players actions were simple, without thought, or think there might not be reprocussions from out of the blue...

I submit you have never been in any one of the players shoes.

All bright men with multiple agendas at stake.

Like a really good poker game...lots of possibilities, but usually only one winner....unless the game gets busted because some rules were broken....then all hell breaks loose and maybe everyone loses.

 

[Les_Garten]

Respectfully, I don't see this at all:

- Crozier's actions seem have been done for the sake of his crew and what most likely would lead to the loss of his command.

- Mobly's actions seem to have be done for the sake of his OWN personal career at the expense of those sailors on the ship.

To the question of whose action is more honorable, seems to be pretty evident to me.

Jim

Me too. Ohh excuse me, I guess that's a thing now.

I believe that Crozier also tried to not take the crew to this Fandango. But was overruled. There's no doubt that he knew this trip was a hazard to his crew and to the combat readiness of his command.

That's why I said he was Morally right and Militarily wrong. It boils down to his "broadcast" of that letter.

He got what he wanted from it though. Gotta give him that. When he pressed the send button, he knew how this would turn out. No surprises there.

 

[rgano]

So, Crozier puts the Department of the Navy on report much to the delight of some of the crew who will always hate the Navy. In the process he canonizes himself and throws a wrench in good order and discipline on the ship. One look at the video of the crew members standing shoulder to shoulder (in the middle of a pandemic) and shouting Croziers name is very telling. If Crozier was a true leader and commander, he'd have turned around and ordered that mob to knock it off. Of course the press sucked it all up and made it their human interest story of the day...make that the month.

Mobly understood the situation and instead of sending a senior military officer to tell the ship's crew to shape up, he bucked up and did it himself. That took a lot of chutzpah considering how the press had hyped the canonized Crozier. Mobly's message regarding command and good order naturally got lost in the anti-Trump press spin. Crozier's groupies in the crew gave them an assist.

I do believe it was Mobly's Navy Department that had done all the prep work for arrival in Guam, and that had shifted forces to plug the gap left by the Roosevelt's departure. No, he wasn't clueless....maybe a lot pissed as Crozier had fired a broadside at the entire chain of command (without good cause from what I've read). Mobly shouldn't have resigned.

Does anybody know what Crozier's stand was regarding the early March port call in DaNang? In light of the already raging world pandemic, if he objected to that decision and/or cancelled all liberty and got the hell out of Dodge ASAP, I might change my mind about his concern for the crew and his lack of judgement.

You can certainly take this hardline approach, jast as some of us can look at Crozier more sympathetically, but really, as you note NOT ONE of us here has all the facts to judge the situation accurately.

 

[Rufus]

You can certainly take this hardline approach, jast as some of us can look at Crozier more sympathetically, but really, as you note NOT ONE of us here has all the facts to judge the situation accurately.

Maintaining order and discipline, and following the chain of command is not hard line.

To your point regarding facts, I'm still trying to understand if the crew was granted general liberty in Da Nang? If not, were anti-virus precautions also taken to protect minimal crew sent ashore to complete docking of the ship? If liberty was granted, had Crozier objected to the point of relinquishing his command? If not, the "Fellow Aviator" letter is a bit disingenuous. If liberty had been granted, and Crozier had been hard line opposed....had he relinquished command in protest on the grounds of protecting his crew, Modly would have flown to Guam to pin on stars. .....put up or shut up....go big or go home....

(I'm not saying the Covid infection on the TR originated in Viet Nam. I am saying that the dangers were well known by the time of the port call. The diplomatic aspects of the visit could have been done with near zero exposure to the crew, and also with relative safety for the muckity mucks).

 

[HiDHo]

Looks like to me that the state department and top Pacific Navy brass dropped the ball by not canceling the TR and Bunker Hill visit. It’s normal routine for Navy ships port visits being scheduled to show the flag and put on dog and pony shows for the dignitaries. Someone with a higher pay grade than the Captain’s should have cancelled the visit because of the virus.

 

[Les_Garten]

You can certainly take this hardline approach, jast as some of us can look at Crozier more sympathetically, but really, as you note NOT ONE of us here has all the facts to judge the situation accurately.

I look at Crozier with Sympathy and Empathy. These are all separate from the fact that Field and Flag grade officers or anyone else for that matter can't utilize the press for communications. That Dog don't hunt, period, exclamation point. He's done. He could have blown up everything internally. Nobody in a Flag position will ever trust this guy, ever.

Maintaining order and discipline, and following the chain of command is not hard line.

To your point regarding facts, I'm still trying to understand if the crew was granted general liberty in Da Nang? If not, were anti-virus precautions also taken to protect minimal crew sent ashore to complete docking of the ship? If liberty was granted, had Crozier objected to the point of relinquishing his command? If not, the "Fellow Aviator" letter is a bit disingenuous. If liberty had been granted, and Crozier had been hard line opposed....had he relinquished command in protest on the grounds of protecting his crew, Modly would have flown to Guam to pin on stars. .....put up or shut up....go big or go home....

(I'm not saying the Covid infection on the TR originated in Viet Nam. I am saying that the dangers were well known by the time of the port call. The diplomatic aspects of the visit could have been done with near zero exposure to the crew, and also with relative safety for the muckity mucks).

The press basically hinted that they were on Liberty in Viet Nam for whatever that's worth. The fingers were directly pointed by Crozier as the cause since he tried not to port there.

 

[Les_Garten]

Looks like to me that the state department and top Pacific Navy brass dropped the ball by not canceling the TR and Bunker Hill visit. It’s normal routine for Navy ships port visits being scheduled to show the flag and put on dog and pony shows for the dignitaries. Someone with a higher pay grade than the Captain’s should have cancelled the visit because of the virus.

I think he beef was with the Admiral down the passageway from him. I thought the Flag office was on the carrier

 

[Rufus]

I look at Crozier with Sympathy and Empathy. These are all separate from the fact that Field and Flag grade officers or anyone else for that matter can't utilize the press for communications. That Dog don't hunt, period, exclamation point. He's done. He could have blown up everything internally. Nobody in a Flag position will ever trust this guy, ever.



The press basically hinted that they were on Liberty in Viet Nam for whatever that's worth. The fingers were directly pointed by Crozier as the cause since he tried not to port there.

If that's the case, he clearly didn't try hard enough. Then he attempted to cover his failure to act on his convictions with the transparent letter campaign. If Crozier was truly committed to the safety of his crew, he would have fallen on his sword over at least the liberty aspect of the Da Nang visit. I don't buy the suggestion that he didn't have a choice. He could have walked. Guaranteed the Admirals would have begged him to stay. Did he even broach the issue of cancelling liberty. Doesn't seem so. Yes, he was between a rock and a hard place. Tough choices. In the end, it appears he's a politician who's career came first. Modly had his number.

 

[rgano]

If that's the case, he clearly didn't try hard enough. Then he attempted to cover his failure to act on his convictions with the transparent letter campaign. If Crozier was truly committed to the safety of his crew, he would have fallen on his sword over at least the liberty aspect of the Da Nang visit. I don't buy the suggestion that he didn't have a choice. He could have walked. Guaranteed the Admirals would have begged him to stay. Did he even broach the issue of cancelling liberty. Doesn't seem so. Yes, he was between a rock and a hard place. Tough choices. In the end, it appears he's a politician who's career came first. Modly had his number.

Having said my piece, I feel no need to engage in useless argument to defend what is ONLY an ill-informed opinion on my part.

 

[psneeld]

If that's the case, he clearly didn't try hard enough. Then he attempted to cover his failure to act on his convictions with the transparent letter campaign. If Crozier was truly committed to the safety of his crew, he would have fallen on his sword over at least the liberty aspect of the Da Nang visit. I don't buy the suggestion that he didn't have a choice. He could have walked. Guaranteed the Admirals would have begged him to stay. Did he even broach the issue of cancelling liberty. Doesn't seem so. Yes, he was between a rock and a hard place. Tough choices. In the end, it appears he's a politician who's career came first. Modly had his number.

Having been a part of several State Department directed port visits for USCG cutters, not sure the captain of a ship is remotely in any position to just "walk"...making it work somehow is one's " duty".