Coronavirus and buying a boat

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If you're dying from respiratory failure (as my mother did), and you catch the flu or the Coronavirus, why does that which hastens your death become the cause? If you have the Coronavirus and die in a car crash, will somebody argue that you died from the virus as your body was in a weaker condition? If you are dying from respiratory failure and have both the flu and the Coronavirus, what did you die from, or did 3 people die (one tick in each government's statistics box)?

Ted
 
0.1% of people who get the flu die. Somewhere around 2% of people who get Covid 19 die.

Nobody on the planet has immunity to Covid 19 so many more will get sick, but let's pretend the same number of people who get the flu in your 2019 example (presumably in the USA) get Covid 19, therefore;

63,000 x 20 = 1,260,000 dead.

Bit of a difference, eh?

I don't believe there's any way to know if the covid 1-2% mortality figure is accurate, I don't believe it is because there's no way to know how many people have it, and the estimate is 80% of those who get it require no medical attention, thus they are not tested and their infections are not included in the infected vs. mortality ratio. The only thing we know for sure is the number of fatalities.
 
Don’t let the flu run your life. Unless you are in the health compromised sub set of the population, this will be gone, if not later then sooner. China already recovering for all reports. This is hysteria.
 
I don't believe there's any way to know if the covid 1-2% mortality figure is accurate, I don't believe it is because there's no way to know how many people have it, and the estimate is 80% of those who get it require no medical attention, thus they are not tested and their infections are not included in the infected vs. mortality ratio. The only thing we know for sure is the number of fatalities.


That's why I keep saying we should have an idea by June, as that's about when the first wave of Spanish flu peaked.
 
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Don’t let the flu run your life. Unless you are in the health compromised sub set of the population, this will be gone, if not later then sooner. China already recovering for all reports. This is hysteria.

China is recovering because of a near total quarantine and the shut down of commerce in the affected areas. We are doing neither, can we expect to have the same positive results as them if we don’t do what worked for them?
 
A bias of this forum is our age. We tend to be >40y.

I wonder if there will be a generational schism in our society’s reaction to this virus. People <40y are largely unaffected by either serious virus symptoms or mortality. Nightclubs are open (until 4a). Universities are holding classes in full, large, 300 person lecture halls. I vaguely recall that when I was young I felt rather immortal. [turns out I was correct so far…] Teens and 20s have a powerful biological imperative to satisfy that is not compatible with social distancing.

Another aspect to the <40y crowd is that those not in the nightclubs until 4a probably have kids. Kids 6y-16y touch everything. Kids <6y lick everything. Kids are super-social with other kids. I suspect almost all kids will be exposed to the virus. If we close the schools then a lot of parents are not going to work, and that will steepen The Recession [OP: boat prices lower in a recession]. Fortunately symptoms in children appear to be mild and they may possibly develop some enduring immunity. But kids will be contagious, and they come home from school around 3p and touch everything and everyone in the home. Kids are probably the main vector that will infect parents. Also, if you have a sick kid you are going to care for them so you will likely get infected that way, as well.

There is certainly some pent up anger among the <40y crowd that the older generation has saddled them with a lot of national debt and unfunded liabilities. From their view, a reduction in the older population may not be all bad, except to the extent it impacts them personally. They are not mean and want to off the oldsters. They are much less motivated with regard to prevention of this disease compared to a 70y person with health issues. They may feel it is not really their problem…
 

For Dr. Miryam Carecchio, a neurologist in Padua, Italy, discovering she was infected, came as a shock. “I had no fever, no cold, no sore throat, and I had no major issues,” she told CTV National News.

The assistant professor at the University of Padua did experience muscle pain in February, she said, so she took some Tylenol, called in sick, and was back to work the following day.

She later experienced changes, including a loss of taste in her mouth, but didn’t think the symptoms were extreme enough to be linked to the COVID-19 outbreak.
“I didn’t feel any of my very minor complaints were consistent with this infection,” she said.

The 37 year old says she was tested – “by chance” at the hospital because she was not ill, had not travelled to a high risk area, and didn’t fit the criteria for testing.

...More than 100 of her contacts were tested for infection, three of which tested positive.


As Steve and others are suggesting, the death rate is probably lower than the 2% I was using, however, there are 7.5 billion of us that have absolutely no immunity to the virus because its never crossed into humans before.

Spanish flu first peaked in June (3 million or so dead) then again in October (20 million or so dead) then again in March (another 7 million or so dead).

Time will tell...
 
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Greetings,
Mr. WH. The ONE advantage we have over China, at this point, is a system to test those who are asymptomatic. In the early days (~Dec. 2019) the only method of potentially diagnosing was by fever symptoms. Well past the infectious stage.
 
Greetings,
Mr. WH. The ONE advantage we have over China, at this point, is a system to test those who are asymptomatic. In the early days (~Dec. 2019) the only method of potentially diagnosing was by fever symptoms. Well past the infectious stage.

If only we could deploy that test. The CDC has only tested 1700 or so and the national total is under 8,000. There are over 70 million over age 60! There are many reports of nurses who have been caring for diagnosed patients, are symptomatic themselves being denied tests. This is not the mass testing we need and is not indicative of any “system”.Non-symptomatic carriers need to know they are contagious so they can avoid older citizens or even self quarantine.
 
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In my opinion, most of the "don't worry, it will be OK on it's own" crowd, are missing the main points regarding this new (novell) virus.
Why be concerned (meaning take part in or support basic common sense approaches to trying to reduce the impact of this virus) especially if I (you) am not in the "should be worried" category?
For one, the only examples where the outbreak has been controlled or contained (minimized, but still not a great outcome) are China, Hong Kong, Singapore, and Taiwan, where (what we would consider) drastic social distancing measures have been undertaken. Until recently (in Italy), the western world has shown that there is no appetite to do these things. Why do these things (distancing) show any success? Besides reducing spread by potentially reducing contact between possibly infected people, there is the issue of "exponential" spread amongst a population with no "herd immunity". If you look at graphs of the number of "reported" cases, you can clearly see the exponential component to this spread (except in Hong Kong, Singapore, and Taiwan where they are seeing a much "flatter" curve). One sick person infects 3-7 others, who infects 3-7 others each, and onward. After all, no one is immune. Flattening this curve (or reducing the height of the peak) helps to "protect" the functioning of the health care system (reducing the overwhelming numbers of cases presenting all at once). In other words, it spreads it out over time.

As an example, take one drop of water put into Yankee stadium and double the amount of water every minute. If this process started at noon, by 12:50 (50 doublings later) the stadium is full. However, at 12:45 there is only about 5 feet of water in the stadium. This is an example of exponential growth. If unchecked (no measures taken) we in western countries are only at the beginning of this "exponential growth" curve (unless something changes).

Back to the beginning of my post, what we would be trying to avoid, is a total overwhelming of our respective health care systems by shear numbers of patients needing medical help AT THE SAME TIME. Current numbers strongly suggest that 15% or more of those infected with this virus will require medical intervention (like O2, antibiotics, hospital stays, etc.) and up to 5% require ICU treatment. Yes old people with the new virus would not get the "extra" care needed to save them, but also everyone else would find it very, very difficult to receive treatment for anything else as well!! Accident, heart attacks, stroke victims, any people who require regular treatment for an existing or newly developing illness, surgery, etc. Emergency response like ambulance responses could be greatly delayed. We are just now starting to realize the potential economic costs as well. See stock market responses.

For those who state, "well we don't know if the current numbers being used are accurate". Yes! But that is all we currently have to go off. The true, final numbers won't be known until well after the fact. Way too late to help us make decisions now! At the beginning of the Spanish Flu outbreak most locales chose the course of minimizing their response. How did that "plan" (actually lack of a plan) work out for them? San Francisco took proactive measures and these measures proved to be effective, until they were caught unawares in the second and third wave.
No one (to the best of our knowledge) has immunity to this new virus. Never seen it before. Reports today from Northern Italy speak to a very bad situation. Hospitals are full. Health care workers are either exhausted, or sick, and those who are not now, probably will be due to long hours of work and long exposure to the virus. The current death numbers from Italy are very high compared to what some other countries are reporting. This should be troubling to everyone.

Based on what we have seen in China, Italy, Iran, and elsewhere, why would we take the risky tactic of "doing little to nothing" because it is "only going to kill off a few old people" and we don't know if the numbers are accurate?? If that tactic proves wrong, it will then be too late to have any chance of effectively "changing course" mid stream and then implementing "stronger" measures. If nothing else, the history lessons from the Spanish Flu of 1918 show us that!
Don't misunderstand me, I am advocating a panic, or even saying that this will be as bad as the Spanish Flu. I am not suggesting "draconian" measures. What I am saying is: take it seriously and implement common sense approaches to this "little known" brand new to us, situation. Why? Because waiting to see what happens could be too late to prevent major consequences. No one knows what each path (do little or implement basic social distancing) will look like (no crystal ball that I know of) for sure, but the worst case is not worth risking IMHO.
Good luck to all of you, I hope for the best for each of you. May no one you care about unduly suffer or die.

"Undeserved panic does no one any good. But neither does ill-informed complacency."
 
Here is a little of what we do know though. Why Italy so hard? Demographics likely contributed with an average age over 45. Florida, we're around 42, the sixth oldest state and oldest large state.

We also know it is most dangerous for the elderly and it's transmitted through droplets, droplets which may give it to you a couple days or more later. We know many have it up to 5 days before symptoms versus 1 day with H1N1 and even less with other forms of flu. We know one patient will transmit it to more people than with flu.

So we tell the elderly to not get out, but that doesn't mean they have no contact with others and they can't even adhere to that completely. When or why do we shut businesses or schools or gathering spots down? We do so not necessarily for those working or going there but for all those they could infect if they caught it. At what point to we do so? We have to look at the community. We also need to sterilize behind those infected. We're facing a lot of decisions and they will have to be made based on specific situations.
 
That's why I keep saying we should have an idea by June, as that's about when the first wave of Spanish flu peaked.

Perhaps, and I'm no pandemic expert but Spanish Flu traveled primarily by ship, train and horse for the most part, which is why the spread was relatively slow and extended over years. In the jet-age infection rates will be much more rapid, for better or worse.

Coincidence that the concentrations of infections are in a similar latitude band, and no real blooms in the southern hemisphere, just isolated cases? If so, it lends credence to the theory that this virus' infections will migrate to higher latitudes, which are less populated, as warm weather arrives in the northern hemisphere (a positive spin for climate change).
 
Australia just banned entry from Italy, except for returning citizens and Permanent Residency holders who are required to self isolate/quarantine for 14 days. Ok to ban Italy now their GP teams have arrived.
Identified infections are gradually increasing, though so far not doubling daily.The desperate hunt for TP continues. Autumn now,I`m not looking forward to winter. We have over 100 cases Australia wide, well spread out. I think it`s out there in the community, it`s showing up in schools and Universities.
I was shown an hilarious vid,?from Instagram, substituting genital/breast/butt touching/grabbing for handshakes. Can`t find it by searching. Suspect it was made by an advertising agency during a quiet moment.
 
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In my opinion, most of the "don't worry, it will be OK on it's own" crowd, are missing the main points regarding this new (novell) virus.
Why be concerned (meaning take part in or support basic common sense approaches to trying to reduce the impact of this virus) especially if I (you) am not in the "should be worried" category?
For one, the only examples where the outbreak has been controlled or contained (minimized, but still not a great outcome) are China, Hong Kong, Singapore, and Taiwan, where (what we would consider) drastic social distancing measures have been undertaken.

I was recently in Singapore and Taiwan, there was no "drastic social distancing" taking place. In Singapore some were wearing masks, there was hand sanitizer in public places, the airport was business as usual. Public service announcement were on TV all day long. Some were self-quarantining. In Taiwan they were screening heavily, most people were wearing a mask and it seemed I had my temp taken several times a day, but...no distancing what so ever, and it's a crowded country, restaurants full, busses, hotels busy etc. Taiwanese and Singaporeans are very good at following rules and they trust their government, and the government seems to do the right thing, so that helps.

Once again, it seems this virus is not as easily spread in warmer climates like Singapore, Malaysia, Taiwan etc. (I saw no preventive measures what so ever in Malaysia btw and cases there are for now pretty low). Just some observations from boots on the ground.

This is pretty good channel by the way, sober and seems accurate
 
Steve,
Yes, I agree, that is a good channel. I also like and follow this one:
It is good to hear from someone first hand who has been to some of the places where it appears that whatever control measure are being implemented, seem to have shown some effectiveness. The weather may help, I hope that turns out to be true. I watched an interview with Dr. Grasselli a medical official from the Lombardy area (Milan area) of northern Italy. He laments Italy not implementing better precautions (being proactive). He describes what is happening now (in Italy) as like a "bomb going off", except it is worse because it just keeps continuing. He warns of a modern, capable health care system being badly overwhelmed by the sheer numbers of Covid-19 patients requiring "advanced" medical care. He suggested that as they had it "happen first" (in the western world), that the rest of the western world should learn from their experience and their mistakes and to take advantage of the short warning time remaining because once it's gone, we will probably experience the "bomb" as well?

You are correct regarding how important it is that citizens be able to trust the info coming from their respective Governments and that their Governments and head health agencies are actually operating in the best interests of their people. I leave it to each person reading this to decide that for themselves.
My intention in commenting on this topic is to try to "make the situation better" by trying to ensure that people are really looking at this potentially bad situation with "open eyes".
 
Man in Manatee County, FL who has Covid 19, was hospitalized for 5 days before he was tested. CDC says FL has community spread virus, FL says not although clearly the evidence indicates we do as five of the patients have not traveled overseas.

There is some retesting of patients who recently died taking place as they died of pneumonia and so were tested for flu. However, not tested for Covid 19. We may well have deaths before we knew it. Some have been uncovered.

The Director of WHO said several countries have indicated it can be suppressed and controlled. He's state others are woefully unprepared.
 
Imagine the Chaos if just one postal sorter is diagnosed with the Chinese flu !!
 
Greetings,
Mr. FF. Forget about the mail, it's the paper currency you have to worry about. Brings a whole new meaning to "money laundering".


200.webp
 
Thanks Steve DAntonio for the website link (Post #166).
As a retired MD and boat owner.... I found it extremely helpful and non-panicked, and explained things well.
Just as with " boat problems", this situation must be approached with common sense, calm, and no short cuts. But we must "carry on" with life and the things we love to do....
Buy the boat !!!
Pete S.
 
Pete S,
I have no dispute with your advice to "buy the boat" nor the appeal for common sense, calm, and no short cuts! However, I think that the current evidence indicates that with this virus it is NOT advisable to "carry on" with life and the things we love to do, at least for a while. Are you suggesting that we still go to large gatherings like concerts, sporting events, movie theatres, etc.?
All of the experiences of the countries and areas where they have first (or ahead of us) had explosive (exponential) outbreaks indicates strongly that we must curtail our exposure to one another (at least for a while) or our hospital systems will be over run, probably leading to deaths that otherwise could have been prevented (and not all of them caused directly by this disease - for example heart attack and stroke victims not able to get to hospital or receive treatment if they do). We must "flatten the curve" for disease growth so that we do not "explode" with many, many cases all at the same time. Slowing down the spread to avoid overwhelming our system is critical now. The only way that stands a chance of working now is "social distancing" to reduce the spread. Cancelling events, staying home, no guests, staying off mass forms of transit, hand washing, etc. are needed. We, the people, need to at least temporarily "change our behaviours", our the politicians, doctors, medical experts, etc. cannot do it alone or for us. We must act or face the consequences. Italy is an example of waiting until it is (probably) too late.

Later, we can carry on and get back to the things we love.
 
Thanks Steve DAntonio for the website link (Post #166).
As a retired MD and boat owner.... I found it extremely helpful and non-panicked, and explained things well.
Just as with " boat problems", this situation must be approached with common sense, calm, and no short cuts. But we must "carry on" with life and the things we love to do....
Buy the boat !!!
Pete S.

In my day to day work I'm often called on to inject a sense of calm and reality into otherwise dire situations (The yard just called and said I need new fuel tanks! Why? There's fuel in the bilge. Have they checked for leaks elsewhere? No. Tell them to look at filters and fittings. OK. They just called back, it was a leaking valve on a filter...etc. etc)

I sincerely hope I'm right, but I'm pretty convinced the reaction to Corona will be far worse than the effects of Corona. Three weeks ago I sent an email out to family members telling them to prepare for this by making sure they had a month's worth of provisions (saying, you should have this anyway). Some scoffed...

Here's another good site. This guy is an aviation specialist, but he is a good researcher and presents information in a manner that's easy to understand
 
"I sincerely hope I'm right, but I'm pretty convinced the reaction to Corona will be far worse than the effects of Corona."


I am pretty convinced that is what will happen as long as we implement the temporary hard changes (social distancing) necessary to "slow this thing down". Then we will be able to look back and say just what your quote states.
However, if we operate now in the manner that our attitude says "it won't be that bad" so let's minimize our response, we will most likely end up like Italy!! Why would our experience be any different?? This thing is way worse than the flu in many, many ways (and the flu is bad enough).

Watch Dr. Grasselli's interview, it is sobering. He is "boots on the ground" in Italy's medical system. The MD's there are "having to play God" and not just with old patients (my paraphrase of the decisions they are being forced to make as described by the doctor).
I hope your family members who "scoffed" get through this OK. I also hope they don't "kill anyone" else by their actions or lack thereof.
I have seen (in the last few days) other info (besides your recent travels) that provides hope that this virus could respond to the coming summer with a lessening of cases. Here's hoping.
 
I sincerely hope I'm right, but I'm pretty convinced the reaction to Corona will be far worse than the effects of Corona.

I hope you're right, but if you turn out to be right, it's that reaction that will make it true. Fear is good and bad. Panic can be very harmful, but fear can lead us to some thought and good decisions. Doing nothing would have been disastrous. Maybe our responses will diminish the impact. I hope two months from now people are criticizing our reactions and saying we over reacted. That will only mean we were successful.
 
"I sincerely hope I'm right, but I'm pretty convinced the reaction to Corona will be far worse than the effects of Corona."


I am pretty convinced that is what will happen as long as we implement the temporary hard changes (social distancing) necessary to "slow this thing down". Then we will be able to look back and say just what your quote states.
However, if we operate now in the manner that our attitude says "it won't be that bad" so let's minimize our response, we will most likely end up like Italy!! Why would our experience be any different?? This thing is way worse than the flu in many, many ways (and the flu is bad enough).

Watch Dr. Grasselli's interview, it is sobering. He is "boots on the ground" in Italy's medical system. The MD's there are "having to play God" and not just with old patients (my paraphrase of the decisions they are being forced to make as described by the doctor).
I hope your family members who "scoffed" get through this OK. I also hope they don't "kill anyone" else by their actions or lack thereof.
I have seen (in the last few days) other info (besides your recent travels) that provides hope that this virus could respond to the coming summer with a lessening of cases. Here's hoping.

Again, not minimizing this but, having spent time in Italy, the medical system there is not the US, nor is China's. I love going to China (and Italy), I'm there regularly, but the level of hygiene is simply different, when you walk down a street in most Chinese cities you smell sewage. My relatives in Italy tell me when I'm there, "If you get sick, go home right away".

Those who scoffed aren't scoffing now, and they were scoffing at stocking up on supplies, I think they are all taking it very seriously now.

Again, I have faith in this country's medical system and overall ability to respond to crisis, and I suspect warmer weather will reduce the spread. Agreed, here's hoping.
 
I hope you're right, but if you turn out to be right, it's that reaction that will make it true. Fear is good and bad. Panic can be very harmful, but fear can lead us to some thought and good decisions. Doing nothing would have been disastrous. Maybe our responses will diminish the impact. I hope two months from now people are criticizing our reactions and saying we over reacted. That will only mean we were successful.

Fully agreed.
 
I sincerely hope I'm right, but I'm pretty convinced the reaction to Corona will be far worse than the effects of Corona.

I agree completely.

Though the reaction is causing people to be more careful which will reduce transmission.
 
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