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Old 03-27-2020, 10:54 AM   #341
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Why should they? They are not American companies. That decision to domicile overseas to save on taxes does not look so smart now does it?
The pres suggests/recommends they register their company in the US so as to qualify for financial assistance.
If it is that easy to move your corp and assets into the US, then it is that easy to take the "free money" and move everything back out.
I wonder, is the amount of their bail out worth all that paper work and attorney fees?

I do believe there is "fee" for moving assets outside of the US.
I am pretty sure if I were to declare my citizenship and assets outside of the US, I would have to pay an exit fee and not have to physically leave the US.
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Old 03-27-2020, 10:59 AM   #342
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About the idea the cruise lines benefiting land based business.
From what I hear few cruise passengers make it more than a couple hundred yards from the dock. So give those business some help.

Without the cruise ships people are not going to stay home. People will be more inclined to stay at land based hotels spreading out their $ to more businesses who do hire locals and pay taxes.
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Old 03-27-2020, 05:22 PM   #343
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About the idea the cruise lines benefiting land based business.
From what I hear few cruise passengers make it more than a couple hundred yards from the dock. So give those business some help.

Without the cruise ships people are not going to stay home. People will be more inclined to stay at land based hotels spreading out their $ to more businesses who do hire locals and pay taxes.
I completely agree. Sure they benefit some like those who sell cruises, the airlines, sometimes a hotel the night before or day after but for the most part they don't spend much on land in the US. It's like the ballpark and arena argument that they'll put so much money in the economy around the park and in the city and it just doesn't happen. Yes, they have some land employees like ballparks and arenas have employees. However, their benefit to the economy is miniscule compared to what they claim.

You're also correct that people would still vacation. How much would be in this country vs. elsewhere we don't know.
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Old 03-27-2020, 08:35 PM   #344
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That raises an interesting question. Assuming the economy recovers and many of the cruise companies go under, where do people go. Clearly some will travel to the destinations that cruise ships went, but how many are just looking for an all inclusive eat, sleep, and party next to water?

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Old 03-27-2020, 10:16 PM   #345
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If the cruise companies go under, some entity will buy up the ships and put them to use.
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Old 03-27-2020, 10:23 PM   #346
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I think they will come back. Where else can you get lodging, chow, and entertainment starting at $100-125/head/day? Not the royal suite, for sure, but there it is. Definitely not my cup of tea, but some people love it. If you're so inclined, sounds like a good value play.
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Old 03-27-2020, 10:30 PM   #347
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someone said if they were registered in the US and hired US citizens then they would qualify for aid.
The 7.5 million is not a gift for the cruise industry, it is insurance for the citizens that go cruising in the near future
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Old 03-28-2020, 04:03 AM   #348
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Bankruptcy on the part of existing cruise lines won't end anything. It will only mean reduced payments on the ships either through negotiation or through repurchasing them at auction. Likely in some way they'll end up with the same ships, at least as many as they want, just at a lower cost.

As to what people will do. I see cruising and all international travel down tremendously for a couple of years. I see US Vacationing down but not as extreme as international. People just will be wary for a while and will curtail spending. However, memories are not that long and in 2 to 3 years people will forget the lessons they should have learned.
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Old 03-28-2020, 04:40 AM   #349
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Yes, after some significant period of time, folks will forget and return to their spending habits. And this is precisely why Mnuchin saying the economy is going to soon come roaring back is preposterous. The psche of many, if not most, has been changed forever. No way that as soon as businesses are allowed to open that the customers will come flooding back. It will be a long, slow recovery just as the economy was in recovering from the last big recession.

Many of us on this forum had parents who were raised during the depression. Their spending habits, no borrowing for discretionary spending for example, were forged from that experience. With so much closed folks are learning that they can live just fine as they are. Spending will not return overnight as Mnuchin suggests.

And never mind the effect of many small businesses that will never open their doors again. Despite the effort to prop up the business community, many just won't be able to return. The ripple effects will be significant and long-lasting.
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Bankruptcy on the part of existing cruise lines won't end anything. It will only mean reduced payments on the ships either through negotiation or through repurchasing them at auction. Likely in some way they'll end up with the same ships, at least as many as they want, just at a lower cost.

As to what people will do. I see cruising and all international travel down tremendously for a couple of years. I see US Vacationing down but not as extreme as international. People just will be wary for a while and will curtail spending. However, memories are not that long and in 2 to 3 years people will forget the lessons they should have learned.
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Old 03-28-2020, 05:34 AM   #350
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I think this will be very different from the Depression as I doubt it will last very long. It was the Depression and then WW2. While I think people are going to remember the cruise ship nightmares, it's my guess that the restaurant business will come roaring back for those who can afford to participate.

My question was more about the business model of an inexpensive all inclusive that a good portion of the inexpensive cruise passengers seem to want. Maybe they can dock them all at an island in the Bahamas and ferry the customers back and forth.

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Old 03-28-2020, 05:51 AM   #351
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If the cruise companies go under, some entity will buy up the ships and put them to use.
China and or N Korea???
Then the crew's wages would be even less.
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Old 03-28-2020, 07:35 AM   #352
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China and or N Korea???
Then the crew's wages would be even less.
The cruise industry already scours the world seeking the absolute lowest cost labor. Lots of Filipino, southern/central Europe, etc. If there was lower priced help out there, they would find it and take advantage of it.
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Old 03-28-2020, 08:46 AM   #353
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Bankruptcy on the part of existing cruise lines won't end anything. It will only mean reduced payments on the ships either through negotiation or through repurchasing them at auction. Likely in some way they'll end up with the same ships, at least as many as they want, just at a lower cost.

As to what people will do. I see cruising and all international travel down tremendously for a couple of years. I see US Vacationing down but not as extreme as international. People just will be wary for a while and will curtail spending. However, memories are not that long and in 2 to 3 years people will forget the lessons they should have learned.
Interesting statement: "... in 2 to 3 years people will forget the lessons they should have learned."

2 to 3 years of an economy not performing up to levels it had become geared will likely create a deep recession - maybe depression??

IMO, there are going to be considerable, ongoing economic alterations.

Low hanging business-fruit will become plentiful; e.g., opportunities during the "return" to business as usual. It is deeply unfortunate that so many current private business owners will go broke. However, not unlike the RE purchase mantra "location, location, location"; in his case of economy rebuilding the business purchase mantra is going to be "opportunity, opportunity, opportunity". But be careful: Many business function [and/or RE] opportunities could spoil on the vine... or prove to be an extended bad investment choice [drain]... as the economy proceeds through months to years of economic rebuild gyrations.

"Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore!"

Due to the plethora of businesses [private and industrial] and real estate owners [private and commercial] that [due to years of extremely low interest rates] had gotten max-loan-leveraged... there will become a cauldron of non performing accounts that will place extreme weight on the national and international [i.e. global] financial system; regarding its need to continue performing at acceptable levels. Wow - that multi leveled concept sure took an extended sentence! - LOL

Numerous financial service businesses [even entire service groups] may not be able to keep their heads above water... the industry could be swamped. Multi trillion dollar $$$ "back stop" cash infusions may be able to keep us out of a full on depression; then again, it may not. One way or another, Trillion$ in "fiat" capital that is magically getting produced will create out of balance economic circumstances that might create the Perfect [global] Economic Storm [collapse].

Stay safe and healthy - best luck as days, months, years progress!
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Old 03-28-2020, 10:32 AM   #354
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Interesting statement: "... in 2 to 3 years people will forget the lessons they should have learned."

2 to 3 years of an economy not performing up to levels it had become geared will likely create a deep recession - maybe depression??

IMO, there are going to be considerable, ongoing economic alterations.

Low hanging business-fruit will become plentiful; e.g., opportunities during the "return" to business as usual. It is deeply unfortunate that so many current private business owners will go broke. However, not unlike the RE purchase mantra "location, location, location"; in his case of economy rebuilding the business purchase mantra is going to be "opportunity, opportunity, opportunity". But be careful: Many business function [and/or RE] opportunities could spoil on the vine... or prove to be an extended bad investment choice [drain]... as the economy proceeds through months to years of economic rebuild gyrations.

"Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore!"

Due to the plethora of businesses [private and industrial] and real estate owners [private and commercial] that [due to years of extremely low interest rates] had gotten max-loan-leveraged... there will become a cauldron of non performing accounts that will place extreme weight on the national and international [i.e. global] financial system; regarding its need to continue performing at acceptable levels. Wow - that multi leveled concept sure took an extended sentence! - LOL

Numerous financial service businesses [even entire service groups] may not be able to keep their heads above water... the industry could be swamped. Multi trillion dollar $$$ "back stop" cash infusions may be able to keep us out of a full on depression; then again, it may not. One way or another, Trillion$ in "fiat" capital that is magically getting produced will create out of balance economic circumstances that might create the Perfect [global] Economic Storm [collapse].

Stay safe and healthy - best luck as days, months, years progress!
Sadly I think you have the most accurate take on this. This Financial pyramid scheme cannot continue much longer.
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Old 03-28-2020, 11:33 AM   #355
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Sadly I think you have the most accurate take on this. This Financial pyramid scheme cannot continue much longer.
It is sad... Ponzi, Madoff, U.S. capitalistic democratic economy, China totalitarian communist economy... global economy in general!

Just different sizes and versions of relatively similar pyramid schemes.

"Money Lenders" game of compounding interest to sustain ongoing capital expansions can only continue survival as long as "feeder fish" keep multiplying with more and more needs to borrow [and repay - with interest]... more and more money!

The Lenders' game plan creates a nearly perpetual finance-increase motion... that is, until one or more large portion of the Money Lenders' finance-chain breaks.

Once one or more levels of the Lenders' "finance-increase-scheme" [weakest link[s] if you will] in that chain of events becomes too constricted [or fully breaks] then their finance-chain can fall fallow.

In this case of CV-19 pandemic's severe restrictions on economic doings: There is little chance that the "chain" can anywhere near soon regain its previous absurdly overvalued height of capital-movement / interest-earned pyramid design.

That is not to say that all is lost. We humans are quite inventive to overcome obstacles that get placed in the path of our civilizations' never ending advancements. Humans will eventually overcome this huge pandemic hiccup for global finance.

But that is to say - IMO... we have some tough years ahead while reformatting oh so many levels of financial, business, and international interactions.

My hope is that war does not break out during this reformation.

My additional hope is that leading toward great assistance for regaining national and international economic stability: Global need to "Save Earth's Ecosystem" will create untold "green" business expansions that lead to extensive employment increases with the outcome of fabulous land, water and air improvements... to help secure a clean future for humanity.

I love my five grand kids. Plan spending rest of my business life helping to insure their future wellbeing. Planet Earth will get cleaned up; with prosperous times toward betterment for all persons in the offing.

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Old 03-28-2020, 01:14 PM   #356
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The cruise industry already scours the world seeking the absolute lowest cost labor. Lots of Filipino, southern/central Europe, etc. If there was lower priced help out there, they would find it and take advantage of it.
And if the cruise industry goes belly up, all these Asian families who send their children to sea, earn money to send home..... The money will/has stopped. These families become the burden of the 'state', requiring free food etc, just to stay alive.
We all know the outcome, no matter what countries flag they are flying, it will be the fault of "you know who"
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Old 03-28-2020, 01:34 PM   #357
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And then there is the arrogance and blindness to reality that somehow made Holland America think it was going to be able to get ships with Covid 19 present through the Panama Canal and then into Fort Lauderdale, so now they're stuck. Somehow they still thought the rules just didn't and wouldn't apply to them and meanwhile the passengers are stranded and again victimized with the number infected increasing daily.
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Old 03-28-2020, 01:48 PM   #358
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Seems to me they had every reason to think the rules would not apply to them.
How often do the same rules apply to large corporations as to regular people and small businesses?
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Old 03-28-2020, 05:47 PM   #359
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Seems to me they had every reason to think the rules would not apply to them.
How often do the same rules apply to large corporations as to regular people and small businesses?
The compliance of most large corporations was good. No, this isn't about rules. This is about the practices of cruise lines. Hurricane on the way, get the people on board and head out, knowing you'll never reach the original destinations. Covid 19, get people on board and take off. You've got the money and this lets you keep it. You have Norovirus running rampant on board. Do you disembark passengers and fly them home. No, you keep everyone on board until you reach home. Sewage isn't working on board, do you take boat and passengers to nearest port or do you wait for somewhere that will cost you less.

As bad as their treatment of passengers is, their treatment of crew is worse. Think of all the cruise crew stranded on ships right now including many with Covid 19.
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Old 03-28-2020, 06:57 PM   #360
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The compliance of most large corporations was good. No, this isn't about rules. This is about the practices of cruise lines. Hurricane on the way, get the people on board and head out, knowing you'll never reach the original destinations. Covid 19, get people on board and take off. You've got the money and this lets you keep it. You have Norovirus running rampant on board. Do you disembark passengers and fly them home. No, you keep everyone on board until you reach home. Sewage isn't working on board, do you take boat and passengers to nearest port or do you wait for somewhere that will cost you less.

As bad as their treatment of passengers is, their treatment of crew is worse. Think of all the cruise crew stranded on ships right now including many with Covid 19.
Carnival has form. Something a problem? Just ditch it! Ooops! We got caught again......
https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-a...04-p51uaj.html

Its time for personal liability for fines, cleanup and remediation costs for the Boards, Senior Executives & Management and Ship's Captains. And no coverage by insurance for such offences. Behaviour can be changed with the right encouragement.
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