Can the Cruise Industry survive ?

[AlaskaProf]

I've made it clear I think ultimately the public will return to them. As to jobs lost with downsizing, we need programs to retrain but doubt their home countries have them.

Is this the new model? First Alaska cruise of the season:

 

[Caphenning]

Is this the new model? First Alaska cruise of the season:

That’s actually an old model for the PNW that existed long before big cruise ships got here. It’s still a more popular model for many, because you get to go to and see what the cruise ships pass by, and be a lot closer to the water and whales. Cruise ships are about casinos.

 

[AlaskaProf]

That’s actually an old model for the PNW that existed long before big cruise ships got here.

You may have missed the part about no port calls.

 

[Caphenning]

You may have missed the part about no port calls.

UnCruise makes few port calls to begin with. It’s mostly anchored out in coves within view of bears and the rest. There was the place with the zip lines I saw them at, but that’s not particularly a port. The big cruise ships would love the not have to put into port either, keep em at the bar and casino, or shopping in the atrium. That’s where they make their money, booze, gambling, and retail concession.

 

[ScottC]

Excerpt from the August 2nd letter from Royal Caribbean CEO to Capatin's Club members:


..."[FONT=&quot]We also had to say goodbye to two ships that played a major role in our history —
[FONT=&quot]Sovereign of the Seas[/FONT] (1988) and [FONT=&quot]Monarch of the Seas[/FONT] (1991). They revolutionized the
industry when they debuted in the late ‘80s and early ‘90s and played a critical role in
helping us redefine the cruise vacation. Over a decade ago both ships took on a new life
as part of the Pullmantur brand showcasing their beauty to a new group of cruisers.
Sadly, their adventures on the high seas have now come to an end. You can take a look
at their last journey here as they made their way to their final destination in Turkey.

As part of Sovereign Class, these ships were among the first megaships to launch and
helped redefine the cruise industry. Sovereign was the first ship to use the “of the Seas”
moniker that our ships are known for today. I know many of you sailed on these ships,
and they hold a special place in your heart and vacation memories. I myself, was part of
the crew on both of these ships when we introduced them to the world. At that time,
we thought there was no way ships could get bigger or have more amenities. To say we
have come a long way
[/FONT][FONT=&quot] is an understatement. "...[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]The video link above is interesting, as it shows the beaching of Monarch of the Seas as seen from the bridge.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

 

[ScottC]

Opened Yachtworld.com today to do some ~50' trawler dreaming.
Was surprised to see CRUISE SHIPS listed (if you remove the price filter)!! Over 20 of them.



https://se.yachtworld.com/baatar/Motor
For a really rough conversion, divide SEK by 10 to get $. Or to be more precise, divide by 8.75

 

[Art]

Opened Yachtworld.com today to do some ~50' trawler dreaming.
Was surprised to see CRUISE SHIPS listed (if you remove the price filter)!! Over 20 of them.



https://se.yachtworld.com/baatar/Motor

Some huge Motorcycle Club ought to purchase one. Can we spell PARTY! :lol:

What a great delivery vehicle... for............... >>>>>> !!!!

 

[ScottC]

Some huge Motorcycle Club ought to purchase one. Can we spell PARTY! :lol:

What a great delivery vehicle... for............... >>>>>> !!!!

Well, if they're as umm.. "commercially diversified" as the motorcycle clubs are here, cash flow for ship operating expenses would be no problem!

 

[Seevee]

Personally, I hope the cruise industry survives, and suspect there's a way. Might be different a bit, but I'm sure there's folks that like to cruise.


For most of us (I think), we'll pass on cruises. Did it once years ago and got the merit badge, never had the desire to repeat, even if free. To many negatives, crowded, expensive or lousy food or both, expensive port activities and designed for the masses, no control and don't like to be captive, too many rules, and LONG waits boarding and de boarding. I think the vast majority of use would rather be on our own boats....


I quit concerts and most conventions for the same reason.

 

[Art]

Well, if they're as umm.. "commercially diversified" as the motorcycle clubs are here, cash flow for ship operating expenses would be no problem!

$altwater laundering $$$!

 

[ScottC]

Personally, I hope the cruise industry survives, and suspect there's a way. Might be different a bit, but I'm sure there's folks that like to cruise.

For most of us (I think), we'll pass on cruises. Did it once years ago and got the merit badge, never had the desire to repeat, even if free. To many negatives, crowded, expensive or lousy food or both, expensive port activities and designed for the masses, no control and don't like to be captive, too many rules, and LONG waits boarding and de boarding. I think the vast majority of use would rather be on our own boats....

I quit concerts and most conventions for the same reason.

I'm probably re-hashing discussion that's already occurred in this thread...but the thought of reading the entire thread from the beginning is daunting.

We have probably been on ~20 cruises over the last 30 years. Some were memorable because they were great and others memorable because of the ugly things you mentioned, without corresponding "rewards" for the effort.

We too hope the industry survives, but seriously doubt it will ever come back to its former "glory" due to likely new restrictions that will severely limit avenues for profitability. Sold half my RCL shares recently (fortunately bought at rock-bottom during the last financial crisis) because I don't foresee suitable returns in our remaining lifetimes.

We generally focus on cruises with unusual itineraries that allow us to sample parts of the world we've never been to before. Sometimes a cruise visit will be enough to convince us to return to the country for a few weeks on a land-based holiday. Other times, the port call helps us understand we would never want to invest in a future holiday in this locale.

Antarctica has been in our sights for a couple of years now, but given recent events, I think it will be at least a year after the industry gets going again before we would take the risk. Ugh! I never before thought I would have to use the words "Risk" and "Cruise" in the same sentence!!!

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Don't know whether this is a previously planned scrapping or COVID related....

 

[CaptTom]

Greetings,
Don't know whether this is a previously planned scrapping or COVID related....

Anyone know which is the blue-hulled ship next to it?

The cruise lines do plan in advance to cycle through ships. I think COVID has caused these plans to be pushed up a bit, and probably some of these would have been sold to smaller markets instead of the scrap yards.

 

[firehoser75]

We booked 2 cruises back to back on the same ship in November/December of last year (prior to Covid becoming news) with the cruise scheduled for later this year with Royal Caribbean. After Covid hit, but early on, we tried to cancel. No go on the cancellation. They told us to wait and see.
Contacted them recently and we are now told that our deposit is not refundable, and part of it can be used on future cruises (not one, as we had 2 cruises booked) but it must be used within a very limited time frame (one year if I remember right).
My wife and I have been on many cruises in the past, and RCL was our most frequented line. Never again! With policies like these, I don't think they will make it. Also, the no refund on deposits is a new policy change that was implemented (with no mention of it) in the last year or so.
I guess we should have read the large document (all in fine print) that they sent us by email where it says we had only a short time (few days) to cancel for a refund!!!!
Being veterans, didn't think it necessary. Wrong! Anyway, no cruises for us due to Covid, but now, for sure no RCL cruises either, even without Covid.
I don't understand how anyone would take the chance to go on a cruiseship for the foreseeable future.

 

[BandB]

We booked 2 cruises back to back on the same ship in November/December of last year (prior to Covid becoming news) with the cruise scheduled for later this year with Royal Caribbean. After Covid hit, but early on, we tried to cancel. No go on the cancellation. They told us to wait and see.
Contacted them recently and we are now told that our deposit is not refundable, and part of it can be used on future cruises (not one, as we had 2 cruises booked) but it must be used within a very limited time frame (one year if I remember right).
My wife and I have been on many cruises in the past, and RCL was our most frequented line. Never again! With policies like these, I don't think they will make it. Also, the no refund on deposits is a new policy change that was implemented (with no mention of it) in the last year or so.
I guess we should have read the large document (all in fine print) that they sent us by email where it says we had only a short time (few days) to cancel for a refund!!!!
Being veterans, didn't think it necessary. Wrong! Anyway, no cruises for us due to Covid, but now, for sure no RCL cruises either, even without Covid.
I don't understand how anyone would take the chance to go on a cruiseship for the foreseeable future.

It's an attitude reflected in everything they do. It's when they have a boat with sewage systems out but they refuse to take it and it's passengers to a nearby port, instead taking many days to go to a port that will cost them less. It's when they leave the originating port knowing full well they will not be able to go to the planned destinations due to an oncoming hurricane, but with the policy to leave and then no refunds because you're getting a cruise. It's no refunds like your situation or thousands more. It's going back out on another cruise after arriving at port with Covid 19 passengers.

I've always gotten the impression from their actions that they believed there were unlimited future passengers so losing a few customers didn't matter to them. Losing money did.

Every time in business that someone requests a refund, you have to consider two things. First is your policy. Second is how important is it to you to retain that customer. When someone requests returning something to us outside normal policy we always look at their history of business with us before giving them a decision. Generally that works in their favor. Occasionally it does not.

The cruise lines also bank on the fact that they don't believe you're going to sue them over the cost of a ticket. I believe in front of a jury, pandemic would win over policy. There are hundreds of those situations right now where contracts didn't anticipate things like pandemics. A lot of references to force majeure in court filings.

 

[O C Diver]

Every time in business that someone requests a refund, you have to consider two things. First is your policy. Second is how important is it to you to retain that customer. When someone requests returning something to us outside normal policy we always look at their history of business with us before giving them a decision. Generally that works in their favor. Occasionally it does not.
.

There's an old saying in the retail business, "Treat every customer well and one in ten will recommend you. Treat one badly, and he will find a soapbox to tell 10 of his friends how badly you screwed him."

Ted

 

[sunchaser]

My wife had a girls cruise scheduled on Cunard. When cancelled, Cunard refunded promptly but British Air stiffed her for first class round trip. So BA is now on our don't recommend list. Repeat, BA has responded horribly and cannot be recommended. Repeat --- Government owned aren't they?

 

[Insequent]

The Ruby Princess debacle has had its first report.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08...navirus-inquiry-findings-handed-down/12557714

When the story aired on the news one part that amazed me was that one couple, with the wife having contracted covid-19 on the Ruby Princess but largely recovered, stated that they will be cruising again as soon as the cruises re-start!

There is a view amongst the die hard cruisers that cruises offer incredible value for money holidays (and opportunities for gluttony, but unstated).

 

[BruceK]

...
There is a view among the die hard cruisers that cruises offer incredible value for money holidays (and opportunities for gluttony, but unstated).

It does, but it also offers profound illness and potential death. I suppose there will be people succumbing to current offers and making bookings, but if, and it`s A BIG IF, they have a real prospect of further cancellations, which is probably the lesser of the evils.

 

[O C Diver]

When the story aired on the news one part that amazed me was that one couple, with the wife having contracted covid-19 on the Ruby Princess but largely recovered, stated that they will be cruising again as soon as the cruises re-start!

There is a view amongst the die hard cruisers that cruises offer incredible value for money holidays (and opportunities for gluttony, but unstated).

Really shouldn't surprise anyone, people still smoke cigarettes, some even after lung cancer.

Ted

 

[CaptTom]

I feel like I have to defend cruisers here. I don't think it's irrational to consider cruising again.

I personally contracted a case of Norovirus on a cruise. It was not pleasant, but less than 24 hours later I was fine. I know a guy who got a far worse illness at an all-inclusive shoreside resort. Airplanes are even more tightly packed. Buses, trains, hotels, concerts, movies, restaurants... they're all a risk. So what do you do, stay home?

Sure, when there's a pandemic running wild, you do. But at some point this too shall pass, and we'll all venture out into the world again. Maybe I'll take another cruise. I don't think that's really a huge risk.

 

[BandB]

There's an old saying in the retail business, "Treat every customer well and one in ten will recommend you. Treat one badly, and he will find a soapbox to tell 10 of his friends how badly you screwed him."

Ted

That's very true but sometimes we make that decision to treat that customer what he feels is badly. We don't do it lightly or routinely though. We do it mainly in two circumstances. First we do it when it's a repeating pattern. We have advised customers in the past that we'll accept no more returns from them so if they purchase again it's at their risk. Even a company as lenient as Amazon does the same. The other situation is disorderly conduct. We will have them removed and trespassed.

I'm sure in either circumstance they tell many and I would guess that half of those they tell actually believe their side of the story. There just is a limit.

On the other hand cruise lines routinely deny and do so for financial reasons.

 

[slowgoesit]

I feel like I have to defend cruisers here. I don't think it's irrational to consider cruising again.
I personally contracted a case of Norovirus on a cruise. It was not pleasant, but less than 24 hours later I was fine. I know a guy who got a far worse illness at an all-inclusive shoreside resort. Airplanes are even more tightly packed. Buses, trains, hotels, concerts, movies, restaurants... they're all a risk. So what do you do, stay home?
Sure, when there's a pandemic running wild, you do. But at some point this too shall pass, and we'll all venture out into the world again. Maybe I'll take another cruise. I don't think that's really a huge risk.

CaptTom, as you stepped in to defend cruisers, I have to step in to comment on your post regarding airplane travel.

Cruise ships generally draw air from ships passageways, through particulate filters, similar in function to your household return line air filters, but different in design. These type of filters do absolutely NOTHING to filter out particles as small as virus strands. The reason they draw air from previously conditioned spaces is because that air has already been cooled/dehumidified by previous conditioning. It's cheaper to do that than to draw ambient air from outside which is generally at a higher temperature, and more laden with moisture.
So, to recap, Cruise ships recirculate their cabin (interior spaces) from previously conditioned (and used by crew/passengers) spaces. There is no separation of air, ie; cool/warm air blown into your cabin has come from air in the passageways, adjacent cabins, common areas, etc. So if the cabin next to you has pax infected with Norovirus, or Covid 19, your lungs get to filter out those virus particles . . . with potentially poor consequences to your health . . .

In a modern turbine power aircraft (jet aircraft in common lexicon), the cabin air is NOT REcirculated . . . not even once, it comes off of the compressor section of the engine, generally the last stage of compression prior to the combustion portion of the engine, it's commonly referred to as "P3 Air or Bleed Air". It is mixed with ambient air (from outside of the aircraft) to reach the desired pressure and temperature, then it is introduced into the cabin to cool the crew and passengers. In a non pressurized aircraft it then exits the non environmentally sealed cabin area back into the atmosphere. In a pressurized aircraft (which constitute most commercial aircraft we are familiar with) the air then exits through an outflow valve which regulates the overall cabin air pressure selected by the aircrew, generally a pressure equal to or lower than air pressure at 8000 feet msl. So, in this example, air is pressurized in the engine compressor section, is blended to the correct pressure and temperature, filtered, then introduced into the cabin, (where it is breathed by the crew & pax), and then exits the aircraft. Generally, the entire cabin air content is exchanged every 2 to 3 minutes (Boeing Aircraft, for example recirculate their cabin air roughly 20x per hour) . . . Cruise ships recirculate living space air over and over continuously, only exchanging for “new” outside air from the normal opening and closing of doors/port holes, etc.

So I ask you, if the intent of your post was to claim that traveling in an aircraft exposed passengers to the same negative health risks as passengers traveling in commercial aircraft, can you please explain, factually, exactly HOW that is the case?
I apologize for being so long winded (see what I did there?) but I thought it better to combat fiction with facts.

 

[O C Diver]

I feel like I have to defend cruisers here. I don't think it's irrational to consider cruising again.

I personally contracted a case of Norovirus on a cruise. It was not pleasant, but less than 24 hours later I was fine. I know a guy who got a far worse illness at an all-inclusive shoreside resort. Airplanes are even more tightly packed. Buses, trains, hotels, concerts, movies, restaurants... they're all a risk. So what do you do, stay home?

Sure, when there's a pandemic running wild, you do. But at some point this too shall pass, and we'll all venture out into the world again. Maybe I'll take another cruise. I don't think that's really a huge risk.

I think the difference that you're overlooking is how long you can be held against your will. When you get on a cruise ship, you become captive, either by the ship / company or a foreign government who may not let you disembark (as we have seen with covid). If you have a medical emergency on a plane or all inclusive resort, separation is measured in minutes to hours, not days or weeks.

Ted

 

[BandB]

So I ask you, if the intent of your post was to claim that traveling in an aircraft exposed passengers to the same negative health risks as passengers traveling in commercial aircraft, can you please explain, factually, exactly HOW that is the case?
I apologize for being so long winded (see what I did there?) but I thought it better to combat fiction with facts.

I don't call the risks the same. However, traveling in airplanes does carry it's own health risks. You have a large number of people packed in a small area for an extended period of time. You are highly exposed to illnesses of other passengers. I do feel like temperature checks and masks can reduce the risks, not just during the pandemic but could during the future as during flu season it's almost been a guarantee that someone on the plane had the flu.

So, I'm not saying the same health risks, but I am saying health risks. On top of that, just the altitude poses added risks to compromised individuals.

 

[O C Diver]

That's very true but sometimes we make that decision to treat that customer what he feels is badly. We don't do it lightly or routinely though. We do it mainly in two circumstances. First we do it when it's a repeating pattern. We have advised customers in the past that we'll accept no more returns from them so if they purchase again it's at their risk. Even a company as lenient as Amazon does the same. The other situation is disorderly conduct. We will have them removed and trespassed.

I'm sure in either circumstance they tell many and I would guess that half of those they tell actually believe their side of the story. There just is a limit.

On the other hand cruise lines routinely deny and do so for financial reasons.

Being a very small business, I only had to deal with a very few of those. They're not customers, just shoplifters tightrope walking the line of use without paying for it.

Ted

 

[CaptTom]

In a modern turbine power aircraft (jet aircraft in common lexicon), the cabin air is NOT REcirculated . . . not even once, it comes off of the compressor section of the engine, generally the last stage of compression prior to the combustion portion of the engine, it's commonly referred to as "P3 Air or Bleed Air".

Is this true? I'd read somewhere that the bleed air IS mixed with cabin air. I'd also read about airlines not wanting to switch to HEPA filters because it would cost too much. Presumably the air they're talking about filtering would be cabin air, not outside air.

I'm not involved in aviation in any way, except as a passenger, so I'd really like a definitive answer, even if it turns out what I'd read was wrong.

So I ask you, if the intent of your post was to claim that traveling in an aircraft exposed passengers to the same negative health risks as passengers traveling in commercial aircraft, can you please explain, factually, exactly HOW that is the case?

No, that wasn't my intent. My intent was to point out that there ARE risks in any form of travel. Everyone will weight them differently. For me, cruise ships (except in a time of pandemic) don't seem particularly risky. There are plenty of other arguments against them. But that's true of any other mode of travel, too.

 

[AdkChris]

It was also my uniformed impression that jet cabin air was recirculated.

Even if it is not recirculated back out the little nozzles above your seat it does seem to be blown around for a while before it is replaced. Would the time interval per air change and the number a passengers the air blows past before being replaced also be very relevant?

As an aside rather than Hepa filters how would enclosed UV treatment, similar to what is used to treat water, work? I have been waiting to hear someone mention that.

 

[O C Diver]

There are probably many ways to clean the air in the cabin between filtration and a great deal more fresh being added. Like everything else aviation, the time will be in getting it through the FAA approval process.

Ted

 

[CaptTom]

OK, I did some searches. This quote best summarizes what basically all the sources I found say:

The air circulates until eventually it is drawn into the lower fuselage, where about half of it is vented overboard—sucked out by the pressurization outflow valve. The remaining portion is remixed with a fresh supply from the engines and run through filters, and the cycle begins again.

Pretty much what I'd heard before. The air is about 50% recirculated.

Of course, while you're sitting on the plane waiting to leave, or after arriving, it might all be recirculated. On some flights I've been on, that could be a long time.

Getting back to the original point, there's some risk in everything you do.