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Old 03-23-2020, 01:26 PM   #281
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I wonder why authorities did not allow cruise ships to dock and stay at the dock while every passenger is tested and then separate infected from not yet infected, allow non infected to go ashore to a quarantine facility for 14 days before moving along home.
Meanwhile those infected stay aboard until hospital beds are available.

The above goes for the crew too, forget nationality.
It does seem that simple common sense is not being practiced.
Some cruise ships have already offered to be floating hospitals, why not take them up on it?
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Old 03-23-2020, 02:29 PM   #282
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The cruise industry has been poor citizens of the world. They haven't paid taxes. They haven't followed good practices in terms of employment or treatment of their employees. They haven't followed good health practices. In times of trouble they've shown total disregard for their customers and regard only for their revenues. They've had ships full of sick passengers but rather than go to the closest port or returning home, they went to the cheapest port. Just during this crisis they returned to service right after a trip with people who caught coronavirus and they continued to set sail on more cruises even after knowing there was a pandemic. Then the majority of times they won't give a refund regardless of what is going on, only credits. Their cancellation policy is what led many of the people this time to risk their lives.

Now as to a bailout and financial assistance they've already asked for, I have no reason to even consider it. It won't go to their employees. It won't go to the harmed customers. History tells us what they'll do with it. So, in my opinion, they haven't shown themselves to be good citizens and I don't like them.

Just one person's opinion and view of them. However, you asked another poster what he had against them. I can't answer for him, just for myself.

As to bailouts and financial help, nearly every business in this country and nearly every individual is going to need help and we don't have enough for all, so as I start deciding who does or doesn't get help, the cruise lines go on the top of the doesn't get help list.

This.


Add to it that it is a FILTHY industry. Time and time again they have shown complete disregard for international pollution laws. The industry has paid out hundreds of millions of dollars in fines in the last ten years in the US alone, but they don't seem to care, their practices have not changed. They have also destroyed many of the world's pristine places and ruined many unique cultures to build ports.


One of my former employees, a Brazilian, worked for the cruise industry for three years. He described it as indentured servitude, almost slavery.


The ships themselves can be crime ridden and dangerous. Many of the crimes, ranging from petty theft to rape, are not investigated in any meaningful way.




They also promote obesity, greed and alcoholism.



In no way should they be bailed out. We, as a world, need to take this opportunity to put an end to the industry in its current state once and for all. No more cruises for more than 200 passengers at a time. It will be painful in the short term from an economic standpoint, but is the correct long term move.
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Old 03-23-2020, 03:35 PM   #283
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It is a mystery to me how corporate managers (executives) convince so many people that the public has a responsibility to to look out for the corporations.

But managers are only looking out for themselves, screw the corporations, screw the stock holders, screw the employees and especially screw the public whose tax money should bail them out every time they hit a rough patch.

Yes I'm a little pissed my early retirement is going down the tubes while the national debt skyrockets to bail out suits who have never done a useful days work. Meanwhile the people who make the donuts get to carry the debt payments.
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Old 03-23-2020, 05:02 PM   #284
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It is a mystery to me how corporate managers (executives) convince so many people that the public has a responsibility to to look out for the corporations.

But managers are only looking out for themselves, screw the corporations, screw the stock holders, screw the employees and especially screw the public whose tax money should bail them out every time they hit a rough patch.

Yes I'm a little pissed my early retirement is going down the tubes while the national debt skyrockets to bail out suits who have never done a useful days work. Meanwhile the people who make the donuts get to carry the debt payments.
I don't have a question about that quote. I just wanted to see it repeated.

I will direct a comment at the suggestion that a corporation's primary responsibility is to shareholders. Let's do a little mind exercise...

Pretend I make widgets. I make good widgets, and people need widgets. I treat my customers fairly, and give them a good product for a good price. I'm contributing to society and making a good living for myself. All is well.

So I want to expand. I borrow money to buy some new widget making machines. Maybe a new factory. I hire more employees and treat them well, so my quality doesn't go down and my customers remain happy. All is well.

I want to expand more, and it's getting to be more than I can handle. So I issue stock.

How is it that my focus has suddenly changed? When I borrowed from the bank, I didn't stop caring about my employees or customers. I still exist only because society needs my product and I'm good at making it for a fair price.

The stockholders invested in me because all these things made me a success. So why do they now demand that every last nickel be squeezed out of customers and employees, solely to enrich themselves?

I'll never understand this attitude. It's anti-social and against every morality or religion I've ever heard of.
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Old 03-23-2020, 05:36 PM   #285
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I don't have a question about that quote. I just wanted to see it repeated.

I will direct a comment at the suggestion that a corporation's primary responsibility is to shareholders. Let's do a little mind exercise...

Pretend I make widgets. I make good widgets, and people need widgets. I treat my customers fairly, and give them a good product for a good price. I'm contributing to society and making a good living for myself. All is well.

So I want to expand. I borrow money to buy some new widget making machines. Maybe a new factory. I hire more employees and treat them well, so my quality doesn't go down and my customers remain happy. All is well.

I want to expand more, and it's getting to be more than I can handle. So I issue stock.

How is it that my focus has suddenly changed? When I borrowed from the bank, I didn't stop caring about my employees or customers. I still exist only because society needs my product and I'm good at making it for a fair price.

The stockholders invested in me because all these things made me a success. So why do they now demand that every last nickel be squeezed out of customers and employees, solely to enrich themselves?

I'll never understand this attitude. It's anti-social and against every morality or religion I've ever heard of.
I never operated and still don't as my primary obligation being strictly to the shareholders, but I always worked for a company where the shareholders knew we'd fulfill our obligations to employees and customers and vendors. I was never in a position in which I had to choose. Had I been forced, I likely would have left far sooner. Today as the owners, we have no other shareholders. I can assure you that right now all the obligations weigh heavily, but it's our money to decide to spend or give.

In a major company, just like the nation, there isn't unlimited cash and often they can't do what they'd like for employees. Right now, some companies are making incredible commitments and taking great steps to help employees. Others can't do the same as they're facing the possibility of going out of business anyway. Sadly, many companies are so debt ridden today, that being down even 30 days puts them at serious risk of bankruptcy. I'm sure some of their management is callous, but I'm sure there are others who wish they could help employees, but just can't. There's a length of time that if this exceeds without help coming, we'll have to face impossible decisions but thankfully we're not there yet so I can feel a little of what they are facing. I can't imagine being in a position as a CEO in which you're just unable to continue to pay employees. I see companies like Sears, Penney, Macy's and many others that if they're down for 30 days without major help will be in bankruptcy. Look at a business like Gamestop, hanging by a thread.
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Old 03-23-2020, 08:49 PM   #286
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In a major company, just like the nation, there isn't unlimited cash and often they can't do what they'd like for employees.
I guess we just see things from different perspectives. As always, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle ground.

I do have to call out a couple of things, however. First, I'm frankly tired of hearing the pleas of poverty when it comes time to talk about raises for employees, followed almost immediately by glowing reports of overflowing coffers when it comes time to talk about executive compensation and stock values. I'll believe that they'd help employees if they could, when I see the same belt-tightening applied to executive compensation.

I'm willing to accept that the CEO is smarter, and works harder, than me. I'm not convinced he or she is 1,000 times (or whatever multiple) smarter or harder working.

I believe if you fire the CEO and promote the next person in line, making half the CEO's salary, the company will be just fine. That person's pretty smart and hard-working, too. Do this a few levels down and you'll save some real money for the company.

I do agree that a lot of the problem is debt. But this is often self-inflicted. Interesting that you mention Sears. Huge leveraged buyouts which leave the investment bankers wealthy and the company saddled with debt are obscene.

I know you won't believe this, but I'm a capitalist. I believe in the power of the market. But it is being manipulated and abused by and for a very small cadre of interlocking boards and frat buddies. It's not a free market, and it's not really even a market. It's a kleptocracy. Employees are pawns, and governments are in their employ.
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Old 03-23-2020, 09:02 PM   #287
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It amazes me that the relief package for individuals and businesses is being held up by a political agend. Hope the people whose lives are getting ruined and businesses destroyed, remember it in November. The bill needs to be passed before it's too late.

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Old 03-23-2020, 09:48 PM   #288
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I asked the captain of a cruise ship this once. I knew it only took a couple of hours to get to our next destination, but the schedule had us underway for 9-12 hours.

He said sometimes they stop and drift, sometimes they motor slowly, sometimes they motor in circles. Obviously sea state, wind and keeping the passengers comfortable was a factor. But sometimes it's just up to the captain to decide what he feels like doing.
...
It also has to do with their berth slots (like airport landing slots) and getting tied up at the right time for the shore excursions to pick and then return the passengers at the right time for the next leg. If stopping at ports that they don't own berthing space, they pay by the hour to tie up and don't want along side any longer than necessary.
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Old 03-23-2020, 09:48 PM   #289
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There are now over 100 pax disembarked in Sydney from Ruby Princess diagnosed with CV. One has died of it.
It should not have happened. It`s the reverse of a "shot in the arm",it will add to Sydney`s CV load, and elsewhere as the pax returned to interstate.
Overnight,diagnosed cases increased considerably Australia wide, it is ramping up and getting scary.
Our Parliaments, state and federal, despite some bitching and some changes along the way,have legislated economic relief measures without dissent. I welcome that.I hope the US reaches the an accommodation soon. I suppose it is a mark of the division that exists. Whoever, if anyone, is at fault, division and disagreement must run very deep that it cannot be bridged in these circumstances. Maybe by now it has been, I hope so.
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Old 03-23-2020, 09:54 PM   #290
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It amazes me that the relief package for individuals and businesses is being held up by a political agend. Hope the people whose lives are getting ruined and businesses destroyed, remember it in November. The bill needs to be passed before it's too late.

Ted
Well, unfortunately, the last version I saw the relief package for individuals was extremely weak. The one for businesses had no controls. It is ashamed. I agree. I could go write a better bill and I know nothing about writing bills, but I've read every version of this one.
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Old 03-23-2020, 10:11 PM   #291
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Well, unfortunately, the last version I saw the relief package for individuals was extremely weak. The one for businesses had no controls. It is ashamed. I agree. I could go write a better bill and I know nothing about writing bills, but I've read every version of this one.
Yes, it should have been better.

Optics are everything at this point. They need to pass the bill so that people have hope, and then work on a cleanup bill with better help for individuals and more controls on what business can do with the money. How pathetic that the ability to hand out money to keep the system going, is there, but those who don't need it, control the outcome.

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Old 03-23-2020, 10:14 PM   #292
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I guess we just see things from different perspectives. As always, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle ground.

I do have to call out a couple of things, however. First, I'm frankly tired of hearing the pleas of poverty when it comes time to talk about raises for employees, followed almost immediately by glowing reports of overflowing coffers when it comes time to talk about executive compensation and stock values. I'll believe that they'd help employees if they could, when I see the same belt-tightening applied to executive compensation.
I'm offended by the same thing. Even worse, someone new comes in to turn companies around and his first step is reducing head count. Lousy ways to conduct business.

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I'm willing to accept that the CEO is smarter, and works harder, than me. I'm not convinced he or she is 1,000 times (or whatever multiple) smarter or harder working.
Harder working isn't the issue, more valuable is and I agree that they're not 1000 times as valuable. I find the salaries of many CEO's and other Executives Obscene. I think companies should not get a tax deduction on salaries above a certain level.

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I believe if you fire the CEO and promote the next person in line, making half the CEO's salary, the company will be just fine. That person's pretty smart and hard-working, too. Do this a few levels down and you'll save some real money for the company.
I don't necessarily agree on this one. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I've seen companies terminate their older, expensive store managers based on that strategy and lose a lot. Now, I also have seen succession plans work where people were moved up internally when one person left. Fortunately I was promoted up the line and when I left, someone I'd selected was put in my position.

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I do agree that a lot of the problem is debt. But this is often self-inflicted. Interesting that you mention Sears. Huge leveraged buyouts which leave the investment bankers wealthy and the company saddled with debt are obscene.
Debt is almost all self inflicted and IPO's and Venture capitalists greatly add to that. They buy in and start financing so they can pull money out. The Sears situation with Lambert and all he has done is disgusting and the bankruptcy court shouldn't have allowed it to go through. If Sears goes out, his other company still has all the real estate.

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I know you won't believe this, but I'm a capitalist. I believe in the power of the market. But it is being manipulated and abused by and for a very small cadre of interlocking boards and frat buddies. It's not a free market, and it's not really even a market. It's a kleptocracy. Employees are pawns, and governments are in their employ.
I believe in capitalism, but not unbridled. Not monopolistic. Not unregulated. I don't agree with your characterizations though as I think they represent part of the market but there are many on the other side, treating employees right. I can even name some that have improved greatly over the last few years.

I strongly oppose all those companies that treat employees as pawns. Sorry you worked for one. Glad I never worked for one that did that or that expected or even would have allowed me to do so.

Back directly to the topic, I do not agree with bailing companies out with no strings attached. We've done that before. I have a problem with companies that don't have the cash to operate through this because they used their cash for stock buybacks.
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Old 03-24-2020, 05:29 AM   #293
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Obesity, greed, and alcoholism. Let me see then. Would you be advocating the elimination of Las Vegas?
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This.


Add to it that it is a FILTHY industry. Time and time again they have shown complete disregard for international pollution laws. The industry has paid out hundreds of millions of dollars in fines in the last ten years in the US alone, but they don't seem to care, their practices have not changed. They have also destroyed many of the world's pristine places and ruined many unique cultures to build ports.


One of my former employees, a Brazilian, worked for the cruise industry for three years. He described it as indentured servitude, almost slavery.


The ships themselves can be crime ridden and dangerous. Many of the crimes, ranging from petty theft to rape, are not investigated in any meaningful way.




They also promote obesity, greed and alcoholism.



In no way should they be bailed out. We, as a world, need to take this opportunity to put an end to the industry in its current state once and for all. No more cruises for more than 200 passengers at a time. It will be painful in the short term from an economic standpoint, but is the correct long term move.
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Old 03-24-2020, 08:07 AM   #294
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I don't necessarily agree on this one. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I've seen companies terminate their older, expensive store managers based on that strategy and lose a lot. Now, I also have seen succession plans work where people were moved up internally when one person left...

I believe in capitalism, but not unbridled. Not monopolistic. Not unregulated. I don't agree with your characterizations though as I think they represent part of the market but there are many on the other side, treating employees right. I can even name some that have improved greatly over the last few years.

I strongly oppose all those companies that treat employees as pawns. Sorry you worked for one. Glad I never worked for one that did that or that expected or even would have allowed me to do so.
Thank you for a thought-provoking exchange. It would appear there's far more that we agree about than disagree.

I concede that I made some blanket statements which don't apply universally. Obviously I was thinking of the worst examples, although in my experience it seems most corporations are following their lead, at least to some extent.

My theory about firing the CEO and replacing with someone just as capable at half the salary does not extend all the way down the chain. I share your skepticism about the value some of these over-paid executives really add. My theory is that there are usually good people who could add just about the same value for a fraction of the salary.

I've had the privilege to know some very competent managers, as well as some who only got the job because they were college frat buddies with a big-shot. I've known fewer CEOs, and none that I'd put in the category of grossly overpaid. But there is a point at which no human is worth what's being given to some of these executives.

The company I worked for started out with a sincere goal to provide a quality product while respecting customers, employees and stockholders. I watched over the years as this eroded. Most insulting were the attempts to spin all the changes using the same transparent sound bites all the other corporations were using to screw their employees and customers.
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Old 03-24-2020, 08:37 AM   #295
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Understand, these executives can serve on more than company boards of directors, getting a significant pay from each company.
Yup, they get a really nice office at each company, show up to the boards of directors, vote in favor of the board member, make a few decisions and then, onto the next board meeting.
I have never heard of board members on competing company board but, nothing to prevent it. SHRUG
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Old 03-24-2020, 09:22 AM   #296
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Understand, these executives can serve on more than company boards of directors, getting a significant pay from each company.
Yup, they get a really nice office at each company, show up to the boards of directors, vote in favor of the board member, make a few decisions and then, onto the next board meeting.
I have never heard of board members on competing company board but, nothing to prevent it. SHRUG
The number of boards for a single executive to serve on has been significantly reduced over the last 20 years. At one time it was more figurehead than function. Then the SEC started holding board members responsible and they were held accountable to a greater regard. Board members had to start actually earning their compensation in that role. This is not to say there aren't still some more "honorary" than "working" board members but it's a very risky way now to go after easy money.

Very seldom do board members have offices at the company and today few serve on more than 2 boards. Also compensation of board members is more closely scrutinized.
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Old 03-24-2020, 10:10 AM   #297
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Obesity, greed, and alcoholism. Let me see then. Would you be advocating the elimination of Las Vegas?
Shrug. An unsustainable consumer culture city in the desert that sucks the Colorado River dry. I'd be okay with that too.
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Old 03-24-2020, 11:55 AM   #298
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Not sure I want the government to eliminate things I don't care for but they should definitely stop subsidizing things which do not benefit the common long term good. If you want to gamble in the desert the rest of us should not be required to divert a public river for you.
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Old 03-24-2020, 12:11 PM   #299
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Not sure how I feel about personal business owner. At least they have a need to keep the company solvent which requires them to temper their worst instincts a bit.

Most executives are not owners, they have no investment in the company. They are just hired managers who are supposed to run the company for the owners, stock holders. Thing is the owner - stock holders are so small and spread out that their voice is almost meaningless. This leaves the CEO to treat the company as his fiefdom. As long as the CEO has enough resources to buy the loyalty of the board the CEO can do pretty much what ever he wants. The desire of many CEO's is to stoke their ego and fill their piggy bank. They worked too hard sucking up and kicking down to spend any time worrying about company. Take as much as you can while you can. Seems these are the people the get the corner office a lot of the time.

So we should be very careful when bailing out these companies. These bailout are creating a common debt and should serve a common good.

Think enlightened self interest.
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Old 03-24-2020, 12:17 PM   #300
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Not sure I want the government to eliminate things I don't care for but they should definitely stop subsidizing things which do not benefit the common long term good. If you want to gamble in the desert the rest of us should not be required to divert a public river for you.
Kind of like the NYS tax payers funding the continued existence of the Erie canal for recreational tourism.

I really like the Erie canal, but the 99% are funding it for the less than 1% that use it.

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