Grand Banks vs. Monk

[Marin]

Baker wrote:

Quite possibly one of the prettiest pleasure boats ever built...up to the 46. *The 52, while a BADASS boat, doesn't share the same proportion as the smaller ones.

I agree.* There are two GB52s in the charter fleet in our marina.* The GB design in eitther the Classic (tri-cabin) or Europa (sedan with covered side and aft decks) holds up aesthetically to about 46 feet or so.* After that, it just doesn't seem to work anymore.* There are designs, particularly the pilothouse boats like deFevers and Flemings, that work much better once you get over about 50 feet.

And if you want to see something REALLY ugly, take a look at one of the three GB66s that were made.* Two of them have been in our marina and once you've seen one (and apparently been on one as well), you realize why they only made three.

As to the reputation of GB, remember this is a make that's been around for a long time, starting in the mid-1960s.* The GB name really took a big leap in repuation in the 1970s when all sorts of companies were jumping into the "trawler" market.* Many of the yards turning out these boats cut corners to keep costs competitive, thus giving rise to the somewhat derogatory term "Taiwan Trawler."

During all this, American Marine (the maker of Grand Banks boats) maintained the high level of CONSISTENT quality which had marked all the boats they made (not just the GBs) in the 1960s.* So it's not so much that their designs are superior--- in many ways they are not, depending on what you want in a boat--- but that GBs, wood and glass, have been built with the same high level of quality from the outset.

Since the 60s and 70s (and maybe even 80s) other manufacturers have either come up to or entered the market at a much higher level of quality.* So the consistency and quality "gap" that used to separate GB from most other manufacturers is no longer there for the most part.

It's sort of like revolvers.* Colt is still the gold standard by reputation, but these days a fair amount of that repuation is just in the name.* When I wanted a revolver for pig hunting in Hawaii in the 1970s I couldn't afford a Colt but I could afford a Ruger.* From a user point of view, the Ruger proved to be every bit as good as the Colt of the same vintage and it served me just as well.

Where the GB name can make a difference is if one is in the market for an older boat, like we were.* Assuming equal upkeep, a GB from the 1970s benefits from the solid foundation that has typified the make from the outset where other brands may have some inherent quality problems stemming from the way they were built.

None of this is to say that GB has slipped in quality or consistency.* Just that many other makes are today achieving very similar--- or better if you have the money for a Nordhavn or Fleming--- levels of both consistency and quality as a GB and often for a lower price, particularly the brands now being made in the PRC where labor costs are much lower than in Singapore and Malaysia where GBs are made.


-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 10th of June 2010 01:56:26 PM

[koliver]

To turn Marin's argument on its head, When we were looking for a trawler, GBs were priced well above other Taiwan makes of the same quality, just because of their good reputation and the smear that all Taiwan makes got from a few poor builders. We save a good 40% by buying a good taiwan make, over what an equivalent GB would have cost, or put another way, we got 44 ft of taiwan, for the price of 36 ft of GB, with no appreciable difference in quality.

[Egregious]

Taiwan Trawlers seem to run the spectrum from very high quality to very low quality.* At one time I thought they were all the same, but now I know there are huge differences.* The only way to tell (unless you are very educated) is to hire an experienced surveyor.* They will tell you how the hull is constructed and all the other details you would care to know.* The price of a good surveyor in knowledge gained is priceless to me.*

But even manufacturers who have a great reputation still turn out a lemon or two due to bad lay up or materials.* Therefore the surveyor.* I wouldn't buy a brand new boat these days before having the thing surveyed by an experienced professional.*

[FF]

We save a good 40% by buying a + good + taiwan make, over what an equivalent GB would have cost, or put another way, we got 44 ft of taiwan, for the price of 36 ft of GB,

+ with no appreciable difference in quality+.

Perhaps , perhaps not ,different surveys will give different opinions

but the difference in resale price , and the garbage reputation of early Tiawan Tubs will always exist.

[koliver]

FF
By your own rules, "total cost of the journey" this makes sense.
After 16 years, insurance Co still wants it insured for more than I paid in 1994, after independent survey, so no doubt the value is there.
I had the same experience with my last sailboat. A Cooper Seabird 37. The designer forgot to put a decent keel on it, so wasn't a real popular design, by the time I bought it, 6 years old, had depreciated to the point that I got 37 ft for the price of 32 of popular designs. Sold it 6 yrs later for what I paid for it, cost of the journey= just what I had spent along the way.
You can't do that if you buy for the name only.

[FF]

By your own rules, "total cost of the journey" this makes sense.
After 16 years, insurance Co still wants it insured for more than I paid in 1994, after independent survey, so no doubt the value is there.

If you count in today bucks inflation is the main price driver.

The "name" is usually the quality driver. Useful IF needed.

Remember a survey only tells condition, how well or bad was the boat maintained.

It does not tell how well the boat was constructed. Most owners would be aghast at you drilling hull coupons to sends to a lab for resin glass ratio , taking off interior to inspect the hull-deck or bulkhead -hull joints.

Most TT were sold on a high interior volume to low sales price , not based on their suitability as distance cruisers (where getting "caught out" is part of the journey) but as local inshore, lake, bay river, dockside house .

Run the Loop-AICW , sure. Inside Passage either AK or Carib , caution required , but no big deal.

Head to Rio, even long shore , Panama to SF , better have a name under your butt !

[SeaMoose]

Originally Posted by FF

By your own rules, "total cost of the journey" this makes sense.
After 16 years, insurance Co still wants it insured for more than I paid in 1994, after independent survey, so no doubt the value is there.

If you count in today bucks inflation is the main price driver.

The "name" is usually the quality driver. Useful IF needed.

Remember a survey only tells condition, how well or bad was the boat maintained.

It does not tell how well the boat was constructed. Most owners would be aghast at you drilling hull coupons to sends to a lab for resin glass ratio , taking off interior to inspect the hull-deck or bulkhead -hull joints.

Most TT were sold on a high interior volume to low sales price , not based on their suitability as distance cruisers (where getting "caught out" is part of the journey) but as local inshore, lake, bay river, dockside house .

Run the Loop-AICW , sure. Inside Passage either AK or Carib , caution required , but no big deal.

Head to Rio, even long shore , Panama to SF , better have a name under your butt !

To suggest that taking a flat bottomed rolly trawler with huge single pane glass windows out in the open ocean for a long distance would somehow be safer in, say, a GB (Has the name) than a Marine Trader (Generally regarded as crap) is a bit of a stretch, don't you think?

I've owned a GB32 and an MT 34 and they handle the same - like a pig, to be honest...

[bnoft]

We own a GB and am impressed with the quality. Almost bought a Monk and am impressed with the boat, the last several years of their build in Nova Scotia they were frequently delivered on their own hull. The interior joinery of the Monk might be a tad below that of a GB but the Monk is one solid boat. The forward stays on the 36' Monk get in the way on the flybridge but I suspect they could be moved out board. The owners stateroom on the Monk beats our 42 GB, the hanging locker space is huge. The saloon on a 36 GB seems larger than that on a 36 Monk, but at least the Monk gives you a refrigerator that can be approached on one's feet and not in a prayerful position. When we replaced the system I wised we'd put in a drawer system.
Like any boat(s) everything is a compromise. As to the piggish handling, every "semi displacement" trawler has a square transom that fights a following sea. If I'm headed down sea, give me a Krogen.

[alofajoe]

Hey! I'm closing on a 1982 Monk 36--would love to pick your brain a bit about your experience if you don't mind!

[Bud]

The way we decided on make and model was we took our most important requirements one from my wife, which was galley up and the other from me, which was stand up engine room and twin engines. We looked at exceptable builders and came up with two models: GB 49 and 48 Defever we focused our looking on those two untill we found our boat.

[Choices]

Since the poster is in Florida...

There was a GB distributor in Florida that special ordered his own inventory.

These boats were usually single screw, with factory fiberglass decks. Most were Europas. Railing were stainless.

We have one, I looked a long time to find it.

All the maintenance comments are true, but newer sealants and coatings make maintaining the vessel much easier over time.

I also wanted a traditional look. The Europa pushed my hot button and it has been a very comfortable boat.

Not real big inside, very well built, easy to work on, quite beautiful when maintained.

The Lehman is a little noisier than a Cummins, and I worked for Cummins. But not that much. I think the 135 is a very good engine, mine should easily go 20k hours before overhaul, so we'll be long gone by then.

The velvet drive could be a weak link, but I can pull mine in under an hour and put it on the dock with a helper, no big deal.

With fiberglass decks fuel tank issues are significantly reduced if not eliminated. GBs have a very good gelcoat, so they almost always buff out to a nice shine.

The last note is Europas are going up in value. Few make it to brokers. So start walking the docks and asking around if that's what you want.

Review my blog, "grandbankschoices". You will see what I have done and am doing. Just installed twenty windows completely rebuilt with new glass. Major man hours but relatively easy work, just depends on your analness. I was guessing 15 man hours per window, but that maybe low. Waiting for a weather window to spray the final awlgrip color coat. Try to stay away from aluminum windows unless anodized. Once they start to go it is a constant battle.

Only thing I don't have and would like is a Stern thruster.

West coast boats tend to be cleaner than Gulf Coast boats. The water is saltier in the gulf, and that brings more electrolysis and corrosion. Gel coats deteriorate faster. Bottom growth is quicker. Also you get much more sun, and the boats get used more. Keeping a boat in perfect shape requires a shed or roof.

Good luck.

[wkearney99]

Originally Posted by Marin

And if you want to see something REALLY ugly, take a look at one of the three GB66s that were made.* Two of them have been in our marina and once you've seen one (and apparently been on one as well), you realize why they only made three.

Oh my, that flybridge is a special kind of hideous.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by wkearney99

Oh my, that flybridge is a special kind of hideous.

I don't think that's quite a flybridge. I'm going with upper and lower pilothouse.

[wkearney99]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

I don't think that's quite a flybridge. I'm going with upper and lower pilothouse.

Oh, it gets more interesting, that's the only helm station, up there. Below is the galley.

[rslifkin]

Ok, so I'll revise my thought: the design is a VRPH (very raised pilothouse)

[hmason]

Sky Lounge!

[High Wire]

Originally Posted by alofajoe

Hey! I'm closing on a 1982 Monk 36--would love to pick your brain a bit about your experience if you don't mind!

Ok so what would you like to know? Feel free to send me a PM.

[firstbase]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

Ok, so I'll revise my thought: the design is a VRPH (very raised pilothouse)

Nope. It's the casino.

[caltexflanc]

Back in 2003, we toured one of the 66's in Bellingham that Marin referred to. Indeed a very weird and unergonomic design. I had a hard time believing it really was a GB. Probably the assumption was that it would be crewed. Fast forward to today, and there are a number of modern motor yacht boats in that size range with only an upper station.

[Imacss]

Thank You Marin for taking the time to post on this subject and although I have a CHB (1985 Clipper 34) - Tri-Cabin which I also/still enjoy very much, I found your post enlightening, interesting and very useful so I do appreciate the effort made.
Cheers and stay safe.
Ianmac