Aluminum Semi-Displacement Catamaran Build

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Whoops, didn't look closely at my notes. Overall demi hull beam is 48", but beam at designed waterline is 44".

Thanks - was definitely interested in her length-beam ratio - seems to be a very respectable 10.4, so definitely expecting the good consumption figures you've described. Well done!
 
Some smart guy, maybe Spencer Lincoln?, once stated (in a blinding flash of the obvious) - "how a boat moves through the water is pretty important."

I'm not 100% sure of the speed in this photo, but I think we were at WOT (around 17 knots) when this picture was taken. To my untrained eye, this looks pretty mannerly.
 

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Wow - that's an amazing non-bow wave at 17kn! The first picture also shows so little wake - extremely impressive! Congratulations.
 
Impressive lack of a wake.

What’s the noise level like at 17 knots, and at slower speeds? Just wondering if an aluminum boat is much louder compared to fiberglass?

My FG boat is fairly noisy as the pilothouse is right over the little 4cy Yanmar engine. I’ve done lots of sound mitigation using the lead lined Soundown products, but it’s still noisy to me. When I can put the sails up and pull the throttle back to under 2k rpm it’s much better however.
 
Wow - that's an amazing non-bow wave at 17kn! The first picture also shows so little wake - extremely impressive! Congratulations.

You know, that really does seems like a suspiciously small wake at that speed. Maybe I should check with my chase boat to see if they recall the speed at the end of the shoot when we did those pics. I'm usually so full of BS on purpose that I don't really like doing it by accident. I've also got some video that will help me confirm the speed, but I have to figure out how to get it off my wife's phone.

I'm definitely doing over 14 or 15 knots here because the wake is ginormous below that speed and she trims sits arse down. I should be very happy with how she runs (and given all the construction challenges, I really am pleased with the results). But coming from old school lobster boats where they seem to hold the same trim for a large swath of the speed range, having a large "performance dead spot" it will take a little getting used to.
 
Are you sure

about your :
"600 RPM - 4.22 knots - 7.03 NMPG
1160 RPM - 7.54 knots - 3.59 NMPG
1310 RPM - 7.8 knots - 2.52 NMPG
1800 RPM - 8.47 knots - .82 NMPG
2000 RPM - 12.16 knots - 1.0 NMPG
2100 RPM - 14.97 knots - 1.17 NMPG
2200 RPM - 15.6 knots - 1.12 NMPG
2300 RPM - 17.5 knots - 1.11 NMPG" ?


Because if compared to our former monohull 18.264 wl 33T, 4.43 bwl ? :


sur un moteur à 1130 t/mn : 5.3 nds et 0.61 lt/NM

sur un moteur à 1400 t/mn : 6,6 nds et 0,75 lt/NM 5.05 NMPG
sur un moteur à 1500 t/mn : 7 nds et 0,81 lt/NM. 4.67NMPG

sur un moteur à 1600 t/mn : 7,4 nds et 0,92 lt/NM 4.11NMPG

sur un moteur à 1800 t/mn : 8,3 nds et 1,46 lt/NM 2.59NMPG
sur deux moteurs à 1780 t/mn : 8 nds 1,14 lt/NM 3.32NMPG
sur deux moteurs à 1850 t/mn : 9,80 nds 1,78 lt/NM 2.12NMPG



The best catamaran in terms of consumption was the Santorini 65, long,narrow hull, light at 11 kts 2.29 NMPG


https://www.hisse-et-oh.com/sailors/58003
 
Impressive lack of a wake.

What’s the noise level like at 17 knots, and at slower speeds? Just wondering if an aluminum boat is much louder compared to fiberglass?

My FG boat is fairly noisy as the pilothouse is right over the little 4cy Yanmar engine. I’ve done lots of sound mitigation using the lead lined Soundown products, but it’s still noisy to me. When I can put the sails up and pull the throttle back to under 2k rpm it’s much better however.

Ha, I'm glad you asked! I was very concerned about this because aluminum is a VERY good conductor of noise. WINGSPAN measures an average of 75 db at 2000 to 2300 rpm with doors closed (It doesn't really go much higher when doors are open). I haven't measured it at 8 knots, but it would be materially quieter. If you are interested I can take that measurement this weekend.

I was very concerned about noise and we took a lot of measures right from the start to keep noise in check. You can spend a large amount of money on noise mitigation and I didn't want to do that (I'm really really cheap).

Starting from the design phase, I put the engines completely under the cockpit deck. The forward bulkhead of the engine bays is watertight (noise seeks out air gaps) and we insulated the entire bay with Sounddown to help capture noise bouncing around the engine bays. One problem, the original builder did a poor job of affixing the insulation in a number of areas and I suspect much of it will have to come down because it's only held by tape in the area over the tunnel. But because of the location of that insulation, I suspect it won't have a major impact on noise in the cabin. If it does, I'll figure out how to mechanically reattach it. However, the builder who finished the boat reattached the Sounddown where necessary in the main portion of the engine bays so most of that is very solid. I originally wanted the watertight bulkhead not to overlap the cabin sole, but the NA couldn't physically make that happen with the length limitations I gave him, so the compromise is we now a little overlap; which means the forward couple of feet of the engine bay extends below the sole at the aft couple feet of cabin. To help overcome that, we added 1 pound psf mass loaded vinyl under the vinyl flooring in the cabin and the flooring itself was a commercial product selected because it helps trap airborne noise. I've also added a couple soft rugs to help capture airborne noise - if those help, it's probably not noticeable without equipment.

My 28' lobsterboat with 110hp Yanmar measured at 80 db at cruising speed of 13 knots and WINGSPAN's 75 db at 17 knots sounds materially quieter. You wouldn't think 5 db was a big difference, but you can carry on a conversation at 17 knots without losing your voice. Frankly, I'm pretty satisfied with how that came out. I have not been in rough enough conditions to assess how bad the wave slap on the tunnel will be. I suspect it will be unnerving.
 
about your :
"600 RPM - 4.22 knots - 7.03 NMPG
1160 RPM - 7.54 knots - 3.59 NMPG
1310 RPM - 7.8 knots - 2.52 NMPG
1800 RPM - 8.47 knots - .82 NMPG
2000 RPM - 12.16 knots - 1.0 NMPG
2100 RPM - 14.97 knots - 1.17 NMPG
2200 RPM - 15.6 knots - 1.12 NMPG
2300 RPM - 17.5 knots - 1.11 NMPG" ?


The best catamaran in terms of consumption was the Santorini 65, long,narrow hull, light at 11 kts 2.29 NMPG


https://www.hisse-et-oh.com/sailors/58003

Oh, of course I'm not sure I did it right. I don't have a clue whether I did my recording correctly (or the math for that matter) - but I gave it my best shot.

I took a couple hundred photos like the attached at slack tide over the course of several days then sat down and typed them all into the computer when I got back to civilization. I grouped the results around specific RPMs and discounted the outliers since RPM, speed, and fuel consumption vary by the second. I tried to go for the median result of each grouping. But its was a little hard to find the median, so I just tried to get close.

As noted, I'm still waiting for the final "official" numbers from John Deere. But even those won't be real world numbers at cruising trim - but I'll at least know they did their math right.

BTW - if you notice I switched numerator and denominator or something and my actual NMPG is like .5 - please don't tell me as I'm fairly satisfied with the numbers I came up with.
 

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Ok if I understand, you check the rpm and the speed at sea and after you looking on the graph how much it is the consumption at this rpm . Right ?
In the real world you can find a big difference but it will be difficult for me to explain in ...English :)
When our Long-cours 62 was new we do the same way ( rpm/speed/graph) and find for example at 8 kts 3.5 lt per NM it seam a lot more than the Perkins's prediction table.(
After that we totally fill up the days tank, do X NM at constant speed/rpm and after that fill up again the day tank. It is more accurate because you know exactly how many liter you put in the tank (not the theoretical consumption from rpm)
At 8kts we finally found in the real world 1.14lt per NM..


All that was before "electronic era" :)
 
Ok if I understand, you check the rpm and the speed at sea and after you looking on the graph how much it is the consumption at this rpm . Right ?

All that was before "electronic era" :)

Not quite, if you look at the photo, you will see all three data points are in the photo - speed is on chartplotter and RPM and GPH for each engine is shown on the digital read out. Once I have that photo, I can sit down later and capture everything I need to plug into a spreadsheet that calculates my NMPG.

I got some readouts like this one - it is obviously an outlier because 8.75 knots at 1332 RPM is ridiculous. I was probably going downhill at the time I shot that picture. So this is one that I would ignore as a bad data point.

Yes, this is easier with electronics - but I don't know if it's any more accurate.
 

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The best catamaran in terms of consumption was the Santorini 65, long,narrow hull, light at 11 kts 2.29 NMPG

https://www.hisse-et-oh.com/sailors/58003

Hey, she is our sister ship! I put a few pics of her that I could find (and one that isn't!) on our blog post here.

She was for sale last year. My understanding was one of her designers was the owner - Nivelt or Joubert??

Can I ask how you know her? (happy to take offline...)
 
Ha, I'm glad you asked! I was very concerned about this because aluminum is a VERY good conductor of noise. WINGSPAN measures an average of 75 db at 2000 to 2300 rpm with doors closed (It doesn't really go much higher when doors are open). I haven't measured it at 8 knots, but it would be materially quieter. If you are interested I can take that measurement this weekend.

Well done.

We're going to add soundown - can I asked how you affixed it?
Someone added sound insulation on ours years ago with glue and a previous owner pulled it off, leaving horrible glue crud everywhere. It's one of my post-covid exercises to cleanup and put in new. I see some of the more modern have adhesive backing rather than dobs of glue - do you know if that works on alu?

Also, are you getting any vibration-induced noise through the structure? I can't recall whether you used vibration mounts...
 
Well done.

We're going to add soundown - can I asked how you affixed it?
Someone added sound insulation on ours years ago with glue and a previous owner pulled it off, leaving horrible glue crud everywhere. It's one of my post-covid exercises to cleanup and put in new. I see some of the more modern have adhesive backing rather than dobs of glue - do you know if that works on alu?

Also, are you getting any vibration-induced noise through the structure? I can't recall whether you used vibration mounts...

Soundown seems like one of the most effective solutions in my limited experience. The only thing I don't like about it is that it doesn't always seem to age well. I've had problems in other boats with it coming loose on overhead structures because of it's weight and how it was attached.

This picture shows an areas where they did an acceptable job attaching the insulation. In these areas they glued metal fasteners to the aluminum, then used roves and caps to hold the Soundown in place. I think 2 fasteners per panel are probably not sufficient, but in most places it is also wedged in behind the flange, so that helps give it a true mechanical attachment. I believe they used 5200 to adhere the fastener to the aluminum. But I've had success using epoxy to hold the fasteners in other boats. Once mechanically attached with fasteners, things tend to stay in place because the load is being spread out over the lead sheeting in the Soundown.

The areas where I consider substandard installation all they did was cut the Soundown to fit inside framing and just used mylar seam tape to attach it to the flanges. With weight, vibration, and heat all working to weaken the tape, I don't think that will last long. Fortunately, they only used that method in some small, hard to get to areas so the major spans are done properly.

I'm not a fan of gluing Soundown, but I've actually never tried it. I may experiment with spray on adhesive to see if that works once the tape fails. If your boat has patches of glue, it makes me wonder if they just dabbed on a thick glue in certain spots? That's not one of the recommended methods - it seems like the load is all being borne by the foam, which is the weakest part of the Soundown sheet. When you re-do yours, I think if you were to use the metal fasteners you'd be much more satisfied.

Do you have any experience or thoughts on spray on adhesive for small pieces? The ones I'll have to reattach are around 4" x 6" - so they don't have much weight and using mechanical fasteners will be hard to do because of the location.

Regarding vibration noise - I don't feel that there's much of that. Certainly not at RPM's above, say 900. At idle I can see the vibration ripples on the water, but it just doesn't seem to have a lot of vibration. Of course, at slower speeds there is always something vibrating at any given RPM (like stovetop, cups, etc) until I start to get above around 1,000 rpm and then it all smooths out. Maybe there are still some vibrations but they are drowned out by engines and water sounds.

They used hard mounts on my engines - large aluminum pads welded to the engine beds and the steel feet of the engine mounts are bolted directly to the pads. I was a little nervous about the lack of soft mounts but that seems to have worked by transferring all vibration directly to the structure. I've seen problems with soft mounts adding to vibration at certain speeds by setting up a harmonic (or sympathetic, I don't remember the right term) vibration that shakes your teeth until you change RPMs.
 

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The underside of this hatch is an example of where they screwed up the attachment. The Soundown is not cut large enough to get tucked behind that flange and they only used one fastener. Since it's a horizontal surface when shut, it probably should have had 5 fasteners (one inside each corner and one in the middle). This was someone that didn't know what they were doing or didn't think I'd know what they were doing.

The guys that finished my boat rolled their eyes and smirked at this - they fixed it without having to be asked.
 

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For some reason, I just found this thread today. Congratulations on your new boat. She looks like a beauty!


What is your draft? Of the one picture I saw of your props, it didn't look like they had a lot of protection. Are you satisfied with that aspect?
 
For some reason, I just found this thread today. Congratulations on your new boat. She looks like a beauty!


What is your draft? Of the one picture I saw of your props, it didn't look like they had a lot of protection. Are you satisfied with that aspect?

The keel turns up where the shaft exits the hull just aft of the engines. When you look at just the prop tunnel, they appear more exposed that when you look at the prop and rudder in relation to the keel. By my calcs, the draft is around 2'9" fully loaded with full fuel (it might be a hair less than that). The deepest draft is at the base of the rudder. It extends below the deepest portion of the keel by several inches and the prop extends below the keel by about half that amount. So they are definitely exposed, but not as much as many traditional twin engine boats.

I'm definitely not in love with that aspect and originally discussed adding a rudder shoe. But I let the NA and builder talk me out of it since both thought performance would decrease with a rudder shoe and the keel gave me a lot of protection. We'll see if I come to regret this decision.
 

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... When you re-do yours, I think if you were to use the metal fasteners you'd be much more satisfied.

Do you have any experience or thoughts on spray on adhesive for small pieces? The ones I'll have to reattach are around 4" x 6" - so they don't have much weight and using mechanical fasteners will be hard to do because of the location.

Great information - thanks.

Regarding the smaller pieces, I'm going to (covid!) start using 3M VHB tape for many things rather than glue or (eek) welding. Probably their 4941 or 4956. There's an interesting comment here among many from people using it on boats and aluminium in particular. Would that work for you?
 
Great information - thanks.

Regarding the smaller pieces, I'm going to (covid!) start using 3M VHB tape for many things rather than glue or (eek) welding. Probably their 4941 or 4956. There's an interesting comment here among many from people using it on boats and aluminium in particular. Would that work for you?


BTW, Pyrotek has a lot of products similar to Soundown, and they are based in Australia, so might be a lot easier to source from.


Another data point you guys might consider is Steve Dashew's Cochese (7801). I spent some time on it with him a couple of years ago, discussing all manner of topics. He insulated the whole hull with EDMP, thickness and attachment method unknown. I expected the boat to be loud like a drum, but we moved it to a different anchoring spot, and it was remarkably quiet. So whatever he did, worked well. You might even reach out to him for details.
 
Great information - thanks.

Regarding the smaller pieces, I'm going to (covid!) start using 3M VHB tape for many things rather than glue or (eek) welding.

Interesting. I've never heard of VHB tape before. I don't think it will work for me in this case, but it could be a very real option for future problems. Thank you.

One reason I don't like the idea of tape or glues on Soundown is that the surface that would take the glue is the foam side. So no matter how good the glue is, if the foam starts coming apart you lose the attachment. With the metal clips, the spike goes through the foam, through the "lead" (I think its actually some man made, high density lead substitute), and through the mylar. Then the clip holds the whole system in place from the mylar surface.

But now that you've made me think about other options, I might consider using some lightweight, perforated aluminum or other material with glue, screws, or VHB tape on the frames or flanges to serve as a cover over the Soundown that's currently just taped at the seam. It's holding OK for now, so I've got some time to noodle the problem before coming up with a solution.

Thanks for the tip! Very helpful.
 
Interesting. I've never heard of VHB tape before. I don't think it will work for me in this case, but it could be a very real option for future problems. Thank you.

One reason I don't like the idea of tape or glues on Soundown is that the surface that would take the glue is the foam side. So no matter how good the glue is, if the foam starts coming apart you lose the attachment. With the metal clips, the spike goes through the foam, through the "lead" (I think its actually some man made, high density lead substitute), and through the mylar. Then the clip holds the whole system in place from the mylar surface.

But now that you've made me think about other options, I might consider using some lightweight, perforated aluminum or other material with glue, screws, or VHB tape on the frames or flanges to serve as a cover over the Soundown that's currently just taped at the seam. It's holding OK for now, so I've got some time to noodle the problem before coming up with a solution.

Thanks for the tip! Very helpful.

When I saw the reference to VHB tape I assumed it would be used to hold the metal clips. I agree that tape to foam isn't a good idea.

My Soundown is held in place by large fender washers with screws through them and into the wooden underside of the sole. I realise you don't have wood, hence the clips. Once those are reliably fixed in place then you will have options for something with a decent amount of surface area to spread the weight of the Soundown out, beyond high point load failure conditions.
 
Ha, I'm glad you asked! I was very concerned about this because aluminum is a VERY good conductor of noise. WINGSPAN measures an average of 75 db at 2000 to 2300 rpm with doors closed (It doesn't really go much higher when doors are open). I haven't measured it at 8 knots, but it would be materially quieter. If you are interested I can take that measurement this weekend.



I was very concerned about noise and we took a lot of measures right from the start to keep noise in check. You can spend a large amount of money on noise mitigation and I didn't want to do that (I'm really really cheap).



Starting from the design phase, I put the engines completely under the cockpit deck. The forward bulkhead of the engine bays is watertight (noise seeks out air gaps) and we insulated the entire bay with Sounddown to help capture noise bouncing around the engine bays. One problem, the original builder did a poor job of affixing the insulation in a number of areas and I suspect much of it will have to come down because it's only held by tape in the area over the tunnel. But because of the location of that insulation, I suspect it won't have a major impact on noise in the cabin. If it does, I'll figure out how to mechanically reattach it. However, the builder who finished the boat reattached the Sounddown where necessary in the main portion of the engine bays so most of that is very solid. I originally wanted the watertight bulkhead not to overlap the cabin sole, but the NA couldn't physically make that happen with the length limitations I gave him, so the compromise is we now a little overlap; which means the forward couple of feet of the engine bay extends below the sole at the aft couple feet of cabin. To help overcome that, we added 1 pound psf mass loaded vinyl under the vinyl flooring in the cabin and the flooring itself was a commercial product selected because it helps trap airborne noise. I've also added a couple soft rugs to help capture airborne noise - if those help, it's probably not noticeable without equipment.



My 28' lobsterboat with 110hp Yanmar measured at 80 db at cruising speed of 13 knots and WINGSPAN's 75 db at 17 knots sounds materially quieter. You wouldn't think 5 db was a big difference, but you can carry on a conversation at 17 knots without losing your voice. Frankly, I'm pretty satisfied with how that came out. I have not been in rough enough conditions to assess how bad the wave slap on the tunnel will be. I suspect it will be unnerving.


Wow. 75db seems very respectable. Back when I was trying to quiet down my Genset that sits right under my feet basically, I was getting 88db readings! Like I said, my boat is pretty noisy.
 
When I saw the reference to VHB tape I assumed it would be used to hold the metal clips. I agree that tape to foam isn't a good idea.

Ah, you could be right and it would probably work well for that purpose. I probably misunderstood.

Although VHB seems to suffer from the same problem as 5200 - you have to have some clamping pressure and be able to get to access the area.
 
When I saw the reference to VHB tape I assumed it would be used to hold the metal clips. I agree that tape to foam isn't a good idea.

My Soundown is held in place by large fender washers with screws through them and into the wooden underside of the sole. I realise you don't have wood, hence the clips. Once those are reliably fixed in place then you will have options for something with a decent amount of surface area to spread the weight of the Soundown out, beyond high point load failure conditions.

Sorry, yes I mean the VHB for alum clip/bracket holding to the hull, then continue with however is best to hold the sound material to the clip/bracket, exactly as you've said. You can afford to have quite a few per panel then if you are worried about the VHB holding the weight. I certainly was, but further reading suggests it will have more than enough holding power with a small piece on its own, let alone what I was thinking!

I'm thinking of VHB in lots of places too: our strongall aluminium build has almost no stringers, bulkheads or even gussets, so there is nowhere to hold up wiring and pipe runs. I'm hoping the VHB can help with attaching brackets instead of welding. Given how hard welding is to 12mm aluminium due to heat dissipation, I'm hoping VHB is my lifesaver in lots and lots of situations! Post-covid I can report back...
 
Sorry, yes I mean the VHB for alum clip/bracket holding to the hull, then continue with however is best to hold the sound material to the clip/bracket...

I'm hoping VHB is my lifesaver in lots and lots of situations! Post-covid I can report back...

Sorry, I misunderstood. Please, let us know how it works and what you used it for. It's a product I was totally unaware of.
 
More progress on our project. Engines gi in next week. Starting to look like something now. Still a ways to go though.
 

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Good news, Larmex! It's interesting how different our construction sequence is. Stay on top of 'em and don't cut them any slack on making progress. I think my biggest mistake was to assume everyone was working in good faith - I exhibited too much patience with BS and people not answering my questions. In hindsite, I believe my patience and courtesy was used against me.

I'm looking forward to seeing some details of your electrical and mechanical installation.
 
Hey BK, Engines went in a few days ago, shafting is next. They are happy to do a live FaceTime tour at my request, but for the most part still shots are fine. Wiring will be interesting and inside finishing/carpentry as well. They are getting a lot of new business and are trying to finish up current projects asap. Can’t remember if you had a fire suppression system in the engine rooms. It is something that I overlooked. Do you recall the ER sq footage (if you did install a system)?

I trust that you are having a great summer on Wingspan? She is a beauty.
 
That's all good to hear. I do have an ER fire suppression system (Fireboy). It was the last thing I chose to install and the first thing I'd cut if money was an issue. I think they are a marginal value but I don't love them. I mostly dislike the idea that the engines will shut down without my permission if they trigger.

I don't think I ever got my engine bay square footage. I spec'ed a fire suppression system and they originally installed one bottle in one engine bay and said "that meets specs". When I questioned how a fire in the starboard bay would trigger the bottle that was located in the port bay I just got a deer in the headlights look. They also didn't have an engine shut down system included (which is required by Fireboy).

When my new builder took over I had them correct this with a second bottle and sensor in the starboard bay along with the required shut down system. One thing they couldn't do that you might be able to figure out - have two shut down systems, one tied to each bottle, so if port bottle triggers it only shuts down port engine. You can then decide whether to trigger the starboard bottle manually if you feel its warranted.

To me, that's an ideal compromise that allows you to maintain maneuverability if there were a fire in one engine bay.

And yes, having a good summer. Unfortunately, I got her home after it became too hot to cruise, so it's been day trips only. But I've got her set up to single hand so I've been out regularly. Just waiting for it to cool down now.
 
They are looking at two free standing systems with auto shut down and a manual override. I haven’t seen a price yet but it sounds costly. I once had a slow leak in a canister shut down both engines in 10’ seas. Never want to go there again. Thanks for your input. I value your opinions!
 
Sometimes I scratch my head on how necessary those system are in boats like ours. I'm sure someone will make valid points to the contrary - but our hulls are not going to melt out from under us, and that puts us in a completely different risk category. Your engine and electrical will be in a space with no significant flammables (with the possible exception of some insulation), your fuel tanks are in a separate watertight area, and you will probably have fuel shutoffs on each side of the watertight bulkhead. So how much additional safety does a Fireboy system provide vs ports that allow you to shoot in chemical extinguisher from a hand held?

If money is not a big object, it's certainly a safer choice to have one. But...

It sounds like you already have experience with them, so you know what you're getting into. Besides, my wife would point out that I'm worth more dead than alive...
 

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