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Old 02-28-2021, 11:41 AM   #1
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Island Packet 42

What does this group think about the new IP 42 Mortor Sailor? I know nothing about MS boats but like many I'm intrigued with their potential. We thought about how cool it would be to build a Nordhavn 56 MS years ago but the price tag was way above our budget. I can still remember how large the salon was and not needing to live outside when the weather was poor. Also liked the concept of having both sail and power options with one as the back up system. I never really felt comfortable with the small wing engine on our Nordhavn trawlers as our back-up on long trips. Understand no boat is perfect but the "concept" sure is appealing...

John T.
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Old 02-28-2021, 12:45 PM   #2
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IPs have a history of being slow. The sailboats point poorly and need a bunch of wind to get out of their own way. Tight quarter handling can be difficult as well.

Motor sailors do neither well. Requirements for performance are sufficiently different as to make optimizing for one compromising for the other. Once to get into large shipping or mega yacht sizes the physics changes so this doesn’t apply. But in mom and pop size think it does.

IP was a high quality builder. They made good strong boats with a strong following among traditionalists. But went belly up as other designs were simply more functional for desired program.
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Old 02-28-2021, 01:14 PM   #3
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To expand a bit.

Some N.A.s through history have designed boats with the expectation both sources would be used together most of the time. Gerr, Kasten , and Hand come to mind. But sail would be
the primary for boats like nauticat, the Dreams, the Fishers and the like. The Gerr and Kasten Diesel ducks and Hand are more power dependent and optimized with that in mind.
Then there’s the hosts of true mixed true motor sailors. Recent examples are the Nordhavn and the boat under discussion. It’s to these that my prior comments apply imho.
Looking at available drawings several weaknesses for bluewater passage making in the IP design come to mind but would need a walkthrough to comment further.
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Old 02-28-2021, 01:38 PM   #4
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I think I agree with Hippocampus that motor sailors do neither well. Personally, I would rather have a sailboat OR a powerboat.

Regarding IP's, specifically, seems that most folks either love them or hate them.

I seem to both love them AND hate them! I did a deep dive into older IP's in the lower to mid 30' range and hated the fact that the chainplates were buried and fiberglassed to the inner hull making both inspection and replacement difficult. Also didn't like that fiberglass needed to be cut to replace tanks when replaced. Neither is an issue if buying new, and may not reflect the newer boats, but a major pain when buying older boats.

Jim
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Old 02-28-2021, 02:12 PM   #5
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Let’s walk through the drawings

Headsails- Walter Schultz/Shannon thought to optimize center of effort in stiff breezes with that placement. Now coastal in light air broad reaching or running every time you want to gybe you need to roll the genny entirely in and then out. Two person job. Slow and you need to plan ahead.
Hoyt boom. A total PIA. Sure self tacking but you’re going to want the jib anytime there’s a decent breeze. Particularly upwind. You just can’t get a nice flat sail with the cord in the right place with that set up. Going need to go forward and tie more spaghetti in if you want to hove too.
Forward cabin looks poorly ventilated. That plus all the salon glass means either a dark boat with shades down or the AC running all the time.
Full keels mean a lot of wetted surface and drag. Mpg ain’t going to great. Full keels means a lot of skill and prior thought when tight quarter handling. With the distance between prop and rudder even more difficult. Pointing will suck. Do they publish a sailing polar? If so take a close look and compare to other sailboats that cost and size.
The aft cockpit and companionway cause concern. Seems scupper dependent for drainage and quite large. Add in modest freeboard I’m concerned about a boarding aft quartering sea or a pooping. Now you also have a wet exhaust. Depending on how it was done could cause big problems. How high is the loop for the wet exhaust? Will those double doors hold up or do you get significant down flooding? What happens when green water fills that big aft cockpit? What and how is all that salon glass installed?
Now try to image the sight lines. Think you’re going to be going bow in everywhere.
So without a walkthrough looks like an expensive coastal boat that’s neither fish nor fowl and probably EU B. But even if A not something I’d trust in a seaway.
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Old 03-07-2021, 02:28 PM   #6
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Motor Sailors

Thanks for the information and view points. MS appear to be an attempt for the best of both worlds but come up short. I have been following an N56 blog and find it interesting have to deal with both sail and power issues. First thing I think about is "why" would anyone want double the headaches. I still have a lot to learn.

John
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Old 12-19-2021, 09:14 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hippocampus View Post
Let’s walk through the drawings

Headsails- Walter Schultz/Shannon thought to optimize center of effort in stiff breezes with that placement. Now coastal in light air broad reaching or running every time you want to gybe you need to roll the genny entirely in and then out. Two person job. Slow and you need to plan ahead.
Hoyt boom. A total PIA. Sure self tacking but you’re going to want the jib anytime there’s a decent breeze. Particularly upwind. You just can’t get a nice flat sail with the cord in the right place with that set up. Going need to go forward and tie more spaghetti in if you want to hove too.
Forward cabin looks poorly ventilated. That plus all the salon glass means either a dark boat with shades down or the AC running all the time.
Full keels mean a lot of wetted surface and drag. Mpg ain’t going to great. Full keels means a lot of skill and prior thought when tight quarter handling. With the distance between prop and rudder even more difficult. Pointing will suck. Do they publish a sailing polar? If so take a close look and compare to other sailboats that cost and size.
The aft cockpit and companionway cause concern. Seems scupper dependent for drainage and quite large. Add in modest freeboard I’m concerned about a boarding aft quartering sea or a pooping. Now you also have a wet exhaust. Depending on how it was done could cause big problems. How high is the loop for the wet exhaust? Will those double doors hold up or do you get significant down flooding? What happens when green water fills that big aft cockpit? What and how is all that salon glass installed?
Now try to image the sight lines. Think you’re going to be going bow in everywhere.
So without a walkthrough looks like an expensive coastal boat that’s neither fish nor fowl and probably EU B. But even if A not something I’d trust in a seaway.

True Knowlege is the Product of Direct Experience.


I recognise little of what you state above and have owned hull #14 for six years, covering well in excess of 10,000 NM's.
It aint a sail boat, it is a Motorsailer! A compromise, and a good one from owning and using one.
Bob Johnsons concept was to keep owners of Island Packets buying the brand when they got older and were looking towards a Trawler.
The self tacking hoyt boom has distinct advantages. It acts as a vang with a free sheet and its inherent friction allows easy goosewinging downwind without a pole.
The standard Lewmar 40 powered winch makes sail handling easy for a mature sailor/sailors.
The two dorade vents are direct into the owners stateroom, the one you say is poorly ventilated. It also has three opening portlights with optional bugscreens.
The boat has no genoa. It has the Jib on the Hoyt Boom.
There is the option of a 165% lightweight reacher on a Solent rig with a powered furler.
As ALL Solent rigs, this must be furled to Tack or Gybe.
Surely not the drama you suggest with a powered furler?
I have just retro fitted such a system on our boat, outhaul, trim and furling controlled by the OE Lewmar 40 powered winch Starboard side, manual Lewmar 45 Evo winch Port side.
This should give significant increase in light wind sailing ability, almost doubling the modest SA/D.
Fuel consumption at a sail assisted 2200 RPM is 3.5 litres per hour, not heavy by any measure. Our passage average speed taken over 10,000 NM's is 6.5 KTS. With the main up and pinned in tight going upwind the motion is rematkably seakindly in comparison to 12 metre motorboats.

One of the first hulls - #11 IIRC - almost made the NW Passage. The skipper was a retired Royal Marine, used to taking orders. When the authorities suggested he turn back, he did so. Three other vessels pretended they had not heard and successfully carried on.
I suggest a vessel capable of such a voyage is not as unsuitable as you suggest!
We have had very large following seas, never yet had water in the rear cockpit.
We have been on some pretty rough stuff too - Tom Cunliffe once said if you can sail in the English Channel you will be able to sail antwhere.
I think he is right.
All boats are a compromise.
The Island Packet SP Cruiser most certainly is. But a far better compromise than you suggest - without you having sailed on one!
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Old 12-19-2021, 01:38 PM   #8
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First, I must confess to being an Island Packet fan having owned two: an IP 37 and a Packet Cat 35. I have also sailed across the Gulf from Tampa to Galveston in an IP 420 which looks very similar to this one except for the raised salon. I also owned a very nice 43'sailboat, the Saga 43 which had the Solent sail plan and I loved it. FWIW a Solent rig has two parallel luff sails, one a 90-100% jib and the other a 130-150% genoa. Unlike a cutter where you use both of the sails all of the time while under sail, in a Solent rig you only use one at a time depending on wind angle.

So there is a lot I like about this new boat. The raised salon will bring the center of gravity up a bit and add weight, but you get a lot of interior space as a result. The big genoa on the Solent rig should make it a good sailor on a beam reach or downwind. IPs were never noted for their windward ability but this one should be able to tack within 50 degrees of the true wind angle, vs 40-45 for more conventional sailboats.

It has the same 4J series engine as the IP 420 I sailed, just heavier turbocharging. My Saga 43 burned about 3/4 gph at 7 kts. This boat will burn 1 gph at the same speed. Part of the difference is the full keel, maybe a tenth of a gph; the rest is displacement and beam.

The Hoyt boom should work fine. My Saga 43 had a self-tacking jib with a track for the jib sheet just in front of the mast. The Hoyt accomplishes the same thing. Yes, you have to roll in the genoa when you tack (with the genoa up but not with the jib), but that isn't going to happen much. What you gain is a flatter jib that you don't have to roll up partially in higher winds. I think IP should emphasize the benefits of the Solent rig on their website.

I agree with the comment about close quarters handling under power and I believe that a bow thruster should be standard.

All in all, I rather like it. I absolutely love to sail "when the wind is right" as they say" and this boat lets you enjoy it when you can, but lets you motor when you can't.

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Old 12-20-2021, 09:28 AM   #9
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No reply from Hippocampus so far.


He suggests the Island Packet SP Cruiser is only EU 'B' compliant.


Well it is not 'B' it is full RCD 'A' compliant.


Plenty of ballast, form stability and a modest SA/D.


Big engine power, but economical with it.


We live aboard most UK summers for at least five months. This year, with covid restrictions we managed just four but covered 1600 NM's. Used 125 US Gallons, 500 litres. Some of that fuel use was running the 8KW Genset and the Webasto heating.


I dont know where you get you knowlege of using the Hoyt boom from, but it sure is not from using an Island Packet! Our jib can be outhauled to be quite flat and can be sheeted in tight, inboard of the guardrail.


The shortcoming is, of course, the mainsheet on the pilothouse roof, no traveller.
You missed that, one of the true disadvantages.


All boats are a compromise, I fully understand that. Before we changed, from an aft cockpit Island Packet, the 350, we made a chart.


It showed 'must haves' and 'nice to haves'.


The SP Cruiser ticked more boxes than any other possible option.


Obviously, we wanted different things from a boat than you might want. Poor windward performance under sail is one our choice came with. But then we have a sodding great engine and can afford the fuel!


But please dont be so certain of what you post as drawbacks without trying what you are criticising.


It is fairly clear you have not sailed or even been on one.
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Old 12-22-2021, 09:12 AM   #10
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Island Packet 42

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarrow Lily View Post
No reply from Hippocampus so far.


He suggests the Island Packet SP Cruiser is only EU 'B' compliant.


Well it is not 'B' it is full RCD 'A' compliant.


Plenty of ballast, form stability and a modest SA/D.


Big engine power, but economical with it.


We live aboard most UK summers for at least five months. This year, with covid restrictions we managed just four but covered 1600 NM's. Used 125 US Gallons, 500 litres. Some of that fuel use was running the 8KW Genset and the Webasto heating.


I dont know where you get you knowlege of using the Hoyt boom from, but it sure is not from using an Island Packet! Our jib can be outhauled to be quite flat and can be sheeted in tight, inboard of the guardrail.


The shortcoming is, of course, the mainsheet on the pilothouse roof, no traveller.
You missed that, one of the true disadvantages.


All boats are a compromise, I fully understand that. Before we changed, from an aft cockpit Island Packet, the 350, we made a chart.


It showed 'must haves' and 'nice to haves'.


The SP Cruiser ticked more boxes than any other possible option.


Obviously, we wanted different things from a boat than you might want. Poor windward performance under sail is one our choice came with. But then we have a sodding great engine and can afford the fuel!


But please dont be so certain of what you post as drawbacks without trying what you are criticising.


It is fairly clear you have not sailed or even been on one.

It was good to read your positive review of the SP Cruiser. I own the non-sail version of the boat, the PY Cruiser. After cruising for a couple of years and wobbling around too much for comfort I had it fitted with a small sail rig (about half factory size in terms of sail sq footage) with a 40í mast for stability and get home purposes in case of engine problems. My boat has less ballast that the factory SP, and I wanted a lower mast to be able to cross the Okeechobee waterway, so that was the reason for the small rig. I do have the Hoyt boom for the jib and find it easy to use and pull flat when needed when motoring close to the wind.

I have often wondered what would happen if the cockpit was pooped by a following sea, and was relieved to read that you had never had that happen even in large following seas. Iíve never had my boat in big following seas. We experienced a decent sized following sea coming back from the Bahamas once and the stern seemed to lift and let the waves roll under the boat fairly well IMO. Iíve wondered would would happen if caught in an inlet with breaking following waves, but I try my best to avoid inlets in that state. Have you been in a following sea with breaking waves?

We have enjoyed our boat, and we find the salon/pilothouse very bright and comfortable. And like you stated, the forward master is well ventilated with the hatch right above the bed and the opening port lights.

My boat has a traveler on the roof of the pilothouse for the main. I wasnít aware the factory model did not have that.
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Old 12-25-2021, 04:31 AM   #11
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We have sailed in some pretty bouncy stuff. The English Channel, Irish sea and most of coastal UK has its challenges. Never even looked like taking water into the rear cockpit.
The Shell Channel Pilot written and updated by Tom Cunliffe says about an often sailed by patch of water :- 'The Portland Race is the most dangeorous piece of water around the English Channel. Substantial vessels have sailed into it and no trace has been seen of them again.'
We returned from an attempted Channel crossing to Cherbourg.
We found, as is normally the case, the boat is better than the crew!
Our stock SP Cruiser's mainsheet is rigged through a fixed block in the centre of the pilothouse roof.
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Old 12-26-2021, 08:11 PM   #12
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Interesting

I have been following this thread with interest since switching from a trawler to learn how to sail and building a day sailor. The dependency on pure power for long range cruising always concerned me and thought of sail even as a backup power is something I have always thought about. Researching motor sailors including the N56 (too large for us) has me looking at other smaller MS as a possible next boat. Keep the conversation going and let's learn together the pros and cons of MS. Thanks

John T. - N4050. N4061, N3522, H38E - former owners
Sandpiper15 Day Sailor - current owner
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Old 12-27-2021, 07:08 AM   #13
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Our choice of the SP Cruiser was made after serious consideration of 'Must Haves' and 'Nice to Haves'
First mate was in serious need of a new hip, my knees are pretty shot. "Easy on, Easy off" was number one. The pilot house door, rear cockpit gate and swim platform give this feature in spades, no climbing up and down the freeboard.
Wide sidedecks - all IP's have these - make moving around easy.
Fishers and Nauticats were discounted because they lack this feature. The ones we could afford, anyway.
The power winch, the huge pilothouse, side by side helm seating, easy sail control, good seakeeping and weather protection, walk round bed, big storage, big tankage, great galley and only three steps from pilothouse into the lower area made our decision easy.
Of course she does not sail as good as a dedicated sailing yacht. We never expected her to.
Just installed a 165% reacher on a Solent Rig furler.
This makes a big improvement to the SA/D and should improve ythe light wind - up to a max of 15 KTS true.
We dont regret our choice but wish there was a smaller option as the berthing and maintenance cost of a 12 metre boat in the UK are high.
For us anyway, mid 70's and retired.
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