Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 12-18-2020, 02:09 AM   #21
Guru
 
City: Boston
Vessel Name: Adelante
Vessel Model: IG 30
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,097
Quote:
Originally Posted by Comodave View Post
Probably so few responses because there are so few motorsailers out there.
and if there are a few they're posting on cruisers forum
__________________
Advertisement

SoWhat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2020, 04:00 AM   #22
Guru
 
mvweebles's Avatar
 
City: Saint Petersburg
Vessel Name: Weebles
Vessel Model: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 2,099
There are a handful of credible sources of cruisers with significant miles under both sail and power. Dashew comes immediately to mind, but there are others. An interesting blog by a young family "Bumfuzzle" seem to have an insatiable wanderlust who circumnavigated under sail, and have now spent the last several years cruising the Caribbean on a GB42.

All paths lead to the long term costs of power vs sail being similar. But what about power and sail? I would not expect a major cost uptick. Dashew states that sails last an average of 3400 hours of sailing. Now, he's a performance guy so likely changed them sooner than many do. A person motorsailing could probably cruise 15 years on a set of sails and not worry. I would think that 12-15 years is the lifespan of the sails and standing rigging. Running rigging about half that period. That would be the big cost enhancer to owning an existing motorsailor compared to a trawler.

I have nothing but a gut feel/hunch, but I suspect sailboats often have inferior engine installations compared to power. Access is often cramped and poorly ventilated. The intermittent usage of a sailboat engine is also hard on it.

Coming at it from the sail angle, trawler cruisers generally have bigger energy budgets for AC, freezers, ice makers, sat TV, etc. Means bigger generators, bigger battery banks, bigger inverters. The big cost is stabilization. Fins will cost several thousand dollars to service ever several years. Add in an extra oil change or two for each engine per year and you have the cost Delta.

Purchase cost did many motorsailors is lower than their non-hybrid brethren. There are exceptions. The Fisher and Nauticat lines were designed and constructed as purpose-built. From the trawler side, the DD line were always contemplated to carry a sail rig. But where a builder offered a MS and a non-MS config of the same hull, the hybrid version can normally be purchased at a discount, which offsets some of the dual costs.

A non-trivial comment on motorsailing - actually motoring while sailing. Engines have a max angle of operation. For the most part, combustion engines are not designed to be operated at a sustained heel angle beyond 20 degrees or so. The can tolerate it, and there are modifications that improve the heel angle tolerance, but it's not exactly commonplace, it's not entirely rare for a sailor to throw a rod while motorsailing. It's probably a good thing that motorsailors don't sail very well.

Bottom line is that any difference is likely a rounding error in the grand scheme of ownership. I'm a devout single engine guy, but you will never hear me say that twins are twice as expensive to maintain as singles. They take twice as much oil, but only take one trip to the store to buy the oil - same as a single. Not everything is a doubling factor.

For long passages, a MS makes a lot of sense in my mind. Not for fuel economy, but for additional range, stability, and some semblance of crude backup propulsion. The shorter the passage, the less it makes sense.

Peter
__________________

__________________
M/V Weebles
1970 Willard 36 Sedan Trawler
Current Location: Ensenada MX
mvweebles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2020, 06:12 AM   #23
Member
 
City: NE Florida
Join Date: Dec 2020
Posts: 18
very interesting all

Quote:
Originally Posted by mvweebles View Post
There are a handful of credible sources of cruisers with significant miles under both sail and power. Dashew comes immediately to mind, but there are others. An interesting blog by a young family "Bumfuzzle" seem to have an insatiable wanderlust who circumnavigated under sail, and have now spent the last several years cruising the Caribbean on a GB42.
Yes...it was a post by them I read a while back comparing trawler vs sail. Couldn't remember the name.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mvweebles View Post
I have nothing but a gut feel/hunch, but I suspect sailboats often have inferior engine installations compared to power. Access is often cramped and poorly ventilated. The intermittent usage of a sailboat engine is also hard on it.
This has been my gut feel as well....poor installation and limited. Watching MV Freedom on youtube...now that's a proper equipment room! ...although just form my anecdotal observations I'm not so sure I agree about the intermittent usage. Seems like I see sail boats under power more often than not. Granted, I'm not seeing them while under passage, but they seem to run engines a lot on average. Probably the main reason I keep thinking a trawler with sails makes some sense.
skyhawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2020, 10:23 AM   #24
Member
 
City: Bay
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 18
Interesting points everyone. I never thought of the motor operating while heeling...interesting.

I think there is no question a purpose built trawler is the best answer for our retirement winter liveaboard plans. But the magic of sailing on those glorious 2 days a year when the wind is perfect, man I'll miss that.
TheDory is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2020, 12:02 PM   #25
Guru
 
mvweebles's Avatar
 
City: Saint Petersburg
Vessel Name: Weebles
Vessel Model: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 2,099
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDory View Post
Interesting points everyone. I never thought of the motor operating while heeling...interesting.

I think there is no question a purpose built trawler is the best answer for our retirement winter liveaboard plans. But the magic of sailing on those glorious 2 days a year when the wind is perfect, man I'll miss that.
One of the few reason's I'd like a bigger boat is to have enough room to put a Laser on the aft deck to sail around the anchorage. Next bigger boat would have room for two Lasers - what a blast it would be to run around with a friend on Lasers instead of a dinghy!

Peter
__________________
M/V Weebles
1970 Willard 36 Sedan Trawler
Current Location: Ensenada MX
mvweebles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2020, 01:39 PM   #26
DDW
Guru
 
City: San Francisco
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,443
I don't think heeling is an issue on motorsailers. You are unlikely to be motorsailing while heeled 20 degrees.

On our sailboat, the log shows something like 16,000 miles. The extents have been roughly North Channel in Lake Huron, to Newfoundland, the Bahamas, then trucked to PNW, mid BC coast to SF Bay. The engine hobbs shows 1200 hours. About 200 of that might be maneuvering for anchoring and docking, and the very occasional battery charging run. We plan on about 6.5 knots average. Unless truly flat calm, the sails are up and we are sailing, but the wife insists on firing the engine when the speed gets below about 2.5 knots. Those numbers suggest that we have motored (or motorsailed) 40% of the time. It depends a great deal on the area. Fair amount of motoring on the Great Lakes. Not as much Newfoundland -> Chesapeake. Fair amount in the Bahamas. Almost all the time in PNW (west side of Van Isle the exception).
DDW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2020, 02:30 PM   #27
Veteran Member
 
City: West River
Vessel Name: Momentito
Vessel Model: Mainship 34 Pilot Hardtop
Join Date: Oct 2020
Posts: 26
Interesting thread. Iím not lucky enough to have cruised a lot but have been fortunate to have owned a few boats, mostly sail but a few power as well. My 2c is that I love sailing sailboats below 30 feet or so ... I used to relish turning off the engine on my elite 32 and still sail my Alerion 28 (best laser ever) on and off her mooring. We had a large late model hunter that started to have the necessary things for cruising (beam, beds and comforts) and I did not enjoy the sailing experience as much (I have also sailed better bigger boats but always feel that the heal is less convenient when loaded for cruising, the hunter actually sailed better than her reputation). We currently cruise on a Mainship (weekends at most) and roll it forward and I believe we will cruise on a power boat - wife prefers it flat and I prefer to be able to go. So far my fuel shock factor has not been an issue - if it is slow down and go at sailboat speeds, not as good as the feeling of silence when you kill the engine but I spill my coffee less often - and the coffee is a decent one.
EdSail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2020, 07:21 PM   #28
Member
 
City: Greenport, NY
Vessel Name: Gatsby
Vessel Model: 2004 Lien Waa 46' custom motorsailer
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 11
[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDory View Post
Hello, when it comes to maintenance expenses, I'm curious if those of you who own motorsailers find the maintenance expenses are significantly higher than those of a trawler? Our retirement dream is to have a winter liveaboard and cruise the east coast, Bahamas, Caribbean, and wherever else we choose. Although I am a sailor, and love nothing more than turning of the motor and sailing, I can see the value in having a trawler for liveaboard space, overall comfort, and ease of getting where we want to go.

I'm attracted to Island Packet SP Cruiser's because they seem to make a great pilothouse trawler with a comfortable layout and also the ability to sail when conditions are right. A mainsail to help stabilize the boat and also help with fuel efficiency could be nice as well.

But, as anyone who's owned a sailboat knows, sailing isn't exactly free. Maintaining all the rigging and sails is extremely expensive. Any fuel savings are lost just with the cost of replacing some jib sheets. The cost of a new block or two equals an engine tune-up. You could probably perform a major engine overhaul for the price of new sails.

Have you found the additional costs of maintaining the sails and rigging really negates the benefits of having a motorsailer vs strictly a trawler?
Like the OP we are planning to liveaboard part time and cruise the east coast to the Bahamas. We have owned many boats including classics like a 1960 Rhodes 33 Swiftsure and a 1941 50' Alden designed swordfishing yacht in the past. We ended up buying the a 46' Ed Monk Jr. designed motorsailer. It has a 100 hp Yanmar, electric winches, bow thruster, autopilot. It is a nice trawler but still allows us to sail fine when the wind is fair. We are in our 60's now and past bashing into headwinds. The sails do stabilize the boat beautifully. We decided against cats because we dislike the motion and worrying about getting a slip when that big storm comes.

We will let you know how the cost thing turns out.
Slowboattochina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2020, 07:23 PM   #29
Member
 
City: Greenport, NY
Vessel Name: Gatsby
Vessel Model: 2004 Lien Waa 46' custom motorsailer
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 11
[IMG]file:///Users/williamtalmage/Pictures/Photos%20Library.photoslibrary/resources/derivatives/D/D7464F6D-DD37-4E2E-A8AA-4E297F410A88_1_105_c.jpeg[/IMG]
Slowboattochina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2020, 07:43 PM   #30
Member
 
City: Bay
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 18
Sounds like you guys are all living my dream. DDW - you've sailed everything from the Great Lakes to the PNW, Chesapeake, Bahamas, and Newfoundland. All areas I'd love to explore. I grew up boating on Lake Michigan and now cruise the Chesapeake but I can't wait to explore the PNW and up around Newfoundland. What's your favorite?

Edsail - a Mainship 430 is what I'm currently eyeing as a possibility for my retirement winter liveaboard.
TheDory is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2020, 08:28 PM   #31
Guru
 
AusCan's Avatar
 
City: Adelaide
Vessel Name: Kokanee
Vessel Model: Cuddles 30 Pilot House Motor Sailer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,116
As far as costs go for the sailing rig on a motorsailer, I'd say they are fairly insignificant in the big picture of boat ownership.
In the 8 years I've had the boat, I replaced the running and standing rigging once. Total cost was $2600. Other than that, I had a small repair to the mainsail costing $200 and that's about it.

The stress on a motorsailer rigging tends to be much lighter than "performance sailboats" as there is much less sail area.
AusCan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2020, 08:37 PM   #32
Member
 
City: Bay
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by AusCan View Post
.
In the 8 years I've had the boat, I replaced the running and standing rigging once. Total cost was $2600. Other than that, I had a small repair to the mainsail costing $200 and that's about it.
Cool little boat you have.

$2600 seems awfully low. I don't think I could replace even just one shroud for that here. Heck, just a new mainsail bag probably costs that much. We're replacing a worn out traveler car on the boat I sail on and its >$1500.
TheDory is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2021, 08:21 PM   #33
Veteran Member
 
City: West River
Vessel Name: Momentito
Vessel Model: Mainship 34 Pilot Hardtop
Join Date: Oct 2020
Posts: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDory View Post
Sounds like you guys are all living my dream. DDW - you've sailed everything from the Great Lakes to the PNW, Chesapeake, Bahamas, and Newfoundland. All areas I'd love to explore. I grew up boating on Lake Michigan and now cruise the Chesapeake but I can't wait to explore the PNW and up around Newfoundland. What's your favorite?

Edsail - a Mainship 430 is what I'm currently eyeing as a possibility for my retirement winter liveaboard.


So far we love our Mainship. Smaller than your plan but well thought out and most of the maintenance is accessible. I also like the lack of lots of teak outside .... more time to use and enjoy.
EdSail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2021, 10:30 PM   #34
Member
 
City: Bay
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdSail View Post
I also like the lack of lots of teak outside .... more time to use and enjoy.
Amen to that.
TheDory is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2021, 02:03 AM   #35
DDW
Guru
 
City: San Francisco
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,443
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDory View Post
Sounds like you guys are all living my dream. DDW - you've sailed everything from the Great Lakes to the PNW, Chesapeake, Bahamas, and Newfoundland. All areas I'd love to explore. I grew up boating on Lake Michigan and now cruise the Chesapeake but I can't wait to explore the PNW and up around Newfoundland. What's your favorite?

Edsail - a Mainship 430 is what I'm currently eyeing as a possibility for my retirement winter liveaboard.
I think generally speaking the further north I have gotten the better I have liked it. Places I've been that I would return to given the chance: North Channel in Lake Huron, Newfoundland, the Bras d'Dor and NS coast, Maine (when they outlaw lobster traps), Virgin Islands (when they outlaw charter boats). But I've spent the last 5 seasons in the PNW and bought the trawler specifically to spend several more seasons there. Desolation Sound and north. It is a huge area compared to all those others, with less people than any of the others (excepting perhaps, Newfoundland). And at the same time, few obstacles to enjoying it other than rain, and recently, viruses.

To me the best of all possible worlds would be a just barely trailerable trawler. It's why I keep looking at the Seapiper wishing it had a real house. Relocating across the country would be possible, and relatively cheap to ship to Europe or across the Pacific.
DDW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2021, 07:59 AM   #36
Guru
 
City: Barrington
Vessel Name: Hippocampus
Vessel Model: Boatless at present
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 898
Spoke to the owners of Seapiper. Unfortunately they have no plans for building something in the 40’ range that would serve your (and mine) purpose. Believe the comments on how much the engine is used in sailboats is NOT representative of full time cruisers. It probably is representative of average use but not the cruising crowd. Sail cruisers travel seasonally between good SAILING grounds. For instance for the last 7 years we have traveled between the eastern Caribbean and New England. In that time we saw full main and genny less than 10% of the time. In the Windwards never never used the genny. Just the solent would suffice. Typical day was 20+. Same in the leewards during kite season and Xmas winds. While in those grounds the issue was to have enough time on the engine to warm up the oil. We were in a slip less than 10% of the time and that because we left the boat to go home. It was extremely rare to see a sailboat without the rags up and those were usually charterers not cruisers. The persistence of comments that sailboats don’t sail is directly contrary to my experience. I’m sure it’s the same in other popular SAIL cruising grounds. Know it’s the same for Atlantic coast of Europe (biscay) from friends. Issue in these grounds is too much not too little wind. Sailboats are miserable under bare poles in a seaway. Think the common opinion here is very distorted and only applicable when common sail/power areas are compared with cruisers excluded.
Hippocampus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2021, 09:42 AM   #37
Guru
 
Group9's Avatar
 
City: Bay Saint Louis, Mississippi, (or where the anchor drops)
Vessel Model: 1973 42 Bertram MY
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,138
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyhawk View Post
As someone just exploring the idea of getting into cruising, I'm wondering about the same sorts of thing.
Lack of responses here speaks volumes in a way....
I've never owned a motor sailor, but I've owned a lot of sailboats and power boats.

Many, non-sailors, would probably be shocked to find out what a new mainsail and jib, and new standing rigging, can cost for a 40+ foot boat.

And, like engines, sails and rigging doesn't last forever, although with care and maintenance, they will last a lot longer.
__________________
"It's the tides. They can work for you, and they can work against you. And, confidentially, I've had this problem with the tides before." Captain Ron
Group9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2021, 10:23 AM   #38
Guru
 
City: Barrington
Vessel Name: Hippocampus
Vessel Model: Boatless at present
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 898
Depends on usage and desire for performance.
Dacron stretches and films/other synthetics creep. Huge difference between occasional use in coastal setting and full time cruising with passages. However general rules for the later.
New working sails every 7-8 years.
Annual visit or greater to sailmaker for repairs ( usual is $750-2k).
New standing rigging every 7-8 years if 1x19 or like wire. Sooner if Dux a bit longer if rod but terminals may need attention.
Rotating but constant replacement of running rigging. Most are now replacing stayset or like with some form of dyneema so that’s more boat units.
Then variable work/replacement of line organizers, blocks, winches, clutches and rebedding if a grp boat.
Word I hear is:
The nordhavn motor sailor is a dog.
The nauticats come two ways. The classics are good power boats but lousy sailors. Don’t point and are slow. The moderns are better sailors but nowhere as pretty. Neither are cat A. Believe both are cat B due to the way the doors are done. Both are extremely well built gorgeous boats.
Many sailboats in current production have very well sheltered helms or even pilot houses and are excellent sailors as well as being great seaboats. HR, Amel, Outbound, Boreal come quickly to mind. If looking at motor sailors would look there first. We had a work room and three sided excellent engine access. The statement about limited access isn’t true. In fact engine access was much better than on the nordhavn, KK and Selene we’ve seen. Much less boat yoga.
Hippocampus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2021, 01:23 PM   #39
Guru
 
mvweebles's Avatar
 
City: Saint Petersburg
Vessel Name: Weebles
Vessel Model: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 2,099
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hippocampus View Post
...... HR, Amel, Outbound, Boreal come quickly to mind. If looking at motor sailors would look there first. We had a work room and three sided excellent engine access. The statement about limited access isn’t true. In fact engine access was much better than on the nordhavn, KK and Selene we’ve seen. Much less boat yoga.
So.....I was about to call BS on Hippo about great engine room access on these higher-end cruising sailboats. But, given he's typically well thought-out, I said to myself "better take a look before you hit the keyboard......"

So I grabbed a listing for an Outbound 46, which I believe he owned. While I don't fully agree with his statement, I have to say the O46 has one of the most clever work-shop areas I've seen on any boat, let alone a sailboat (screen-grabs attached, but here is the listing). So while the engine room in the N40 is still great, I certainly see his point.

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/201...nd-46-3693002/

If you scroll to the 10th picture or so, you'll see the portside head has a door at the aft wall. Open that puppy up and lift the overhead hatch/seat, and voila - a stand-up workshop! Way cool. Great space.

Click image for larger version

Name:	O46 Workshop.jpg
Views:	7
Size:	80.2 KB
ID:	112245
__________________

__________________
M/V Weebles
1970 Willard 36 Sedan Trawler
Current Location: Ensenada MX
mvweebles is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



» Trawler Port Captains
Port Captains are TF volunteers who can serve as local guides or assist with local arrangements and information. Search below to locate Port Captains near your destination. To learn more about this program read here: TF Port Captain Program





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:18 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012
×