water tanks Helmsman 38E. Cold weather storage preperation

[Cartouche]

What are you gaining by using compressed air followed by antifreeze? I think that many people who blow out the lines with air is because they don't want to add antifreeze. If you are running antifreeze through all the lines anyway, why bother with the air?

I use pink first in plumbing then compressed air to remove pink sitting in lines

 

[Bacchus]

When you blow out with a compressor, is there a PSI I can control on the compressor side? I saw a reference of keeping the PSI to 40 PSI so as not to damage any lines. Also, did you attach the compressor before the water pump of after the water pump? Hopefully I'll order a compressor or pick up this week. not sure of a recommended model. At this point, I like your thinking of blow out AND get the lines with RV antifreeze run pink through every line. In this order: 1) drain water tanks with regular water pump 2) empty any water in hot water heater using the drain coupling at bottom of hot water heater. 3) hook up compressor to water line to line as it comes out of the tanks, before the water pump and run through RV antifreeze through every hot and cold faucet till pink. We're on the hard in Anacortes Wa so thinking the -50 should do. (It's what I was using on sailboat.) ((will post a separate thread question about Tecma Heads and Lugger 85 HP engine.)) Any other recommendations from you or others are most appreciated!

I do set my compressor around 40-50 PSI.
I made up an adapter that has an air line quick connect for the compressor hose and a garden hose ftg to attach to the shore water inlet. Turn on comp air and open faucets to get rid of the water. Not a hard or time consuming job for me. The reason I do it is to avoid and dilution of pink and/or the need to verify I don't have diluted pink that could cause a problem.
The shore inlet is after the fresh water pump so it clears that line. I pump the pink using the FW pump connected to a 3 way winterizing valve in pump inlet close to the drained water tank so that takes care of the pump inlet.
See my response to those that purge w air after for that discussion.

 

[Bacchus]

What are you gaining by using compressed air followed by antifreeze? I think that many people who blow out the lines with air is because they don't want to add antifreeze. If you are running antifreeze through all the lines anyway, why bother with the air?

You may save some antifreeze by blowing the lines out first so the antifreeze isn’t diluted by the water remaining in the lines. I never went to the extra effort of blowing them out.

I use pink first in plumbing then compressed air to remove pink sitting in lines

As you can see lots of different ways that work for those folks.
My problem with just blowing out is no way to tell if you got all the water so first winter is the real test and I don't want to find out it didn't and have a hard to get at leak to repair.
For those only using pink I'm guessing they don't verify pink is undiluted... again I'd rather be sure and blowing avoids any uncertainty.... its not about saving a gallon or two of pink. I'm usually feeding pink in the ER and my wife is openning & closing faucets so I have no idea what the discharge looks like or exactly how long it was run after first seeing pink.
For those only using pink how do you take care of the shore water connection that is a dead end w/o flow when using the FW pump.
Also... does anyone believe blowing out gets 100% and leaves a dry ID of lines?
IMO leaving a little pink in the line us just as troublesome as full when it comes to flushing in the spring and it may actually dry in some spots leaving a dried on residue in places? Flyshing then Sanitizing tank & lines in the spring cleans everything up OK for me. It just takes a good flushing.

I'm not against any way that works for others... simply providing what I do and my thinking. With water systems there is a lot of variations & situations that can affect what will & won't work. What works for one may not be best in another.
My current motorhome adamantly states that blowing will not remove all water from the heat & hot water unit where I was comfortable blowing out my previous MH for short term storage in cold Wx.

 

[capran]

What are you gaining by using compressed air followed by antifreeze? I think that many people who blow out the lines with air is because they don't want to add antifreeze. If you are running antifreeze through all the lines anyway, why bother with the air?

Originally I was hoping not to need to use the RV fluid because in my sailboat it left a long lasting after taste. But someone in this thread suggested they didn't trust that someplace in the system could be some unknowable low spot that might have water left after the compressor that made it "not worth the risk". but also, thought if I blew out most of the water the RV fluid would be less diluted. additional concerns are the mix of regular hose and the apex type of water lines used in the boat, which is why
i asked about the PSI.

 

[rslifkin]

As far as aftertaste from antifreeze, I always leave the lines full of it over the winter (so it can't dry up and leave residue). And then in the spring, I run a few hundred gallons of water through the whole system, then bleach shock it, then flush it all again. I've never had trouble with taste or smell from the antifreeze after that method.

 

[Helmsman]

Please tell me if i am doing something wrong!
When I winterize the engine, generator and air-conditioning, I go to the water intake filters, close the valves, remove the filters then suck out the little bit of water left with a wet-dry vacuum. My wife then starts things up while i pour large jugs of pink AF and dump it in the filter. No muss or fuss and fast. When she sees pink coming out the exits she shuts down. (yes mufflers were drained) Washdown and toilets are similar.
For the plumbing, I let the pressure pump suck it through a separate hose that is "T"ed before the pump but after the water tank.
Does anyone see any problems with this system? Or is this the norm?
Thanks Barrie

Barrie,
I noticed a couple of posts about "Green versus pink". There are two different types of antifreeze. The pink is used to winterize and is ok to flow into the seawater. The other type is the kind that is always resident in your engine, and should be changed (usually around every five years). Never use that for winterizing.

When winterizing, there are a couple of things to consider.

The engine will use a relatively large flow of pink, to pull through the engine. So, if you plan to just pour the antifreeze into the strainer you will need to pour quickly, and have the bottles open and ready to switch out. I would use probably 7 to 9 gallons of the pink. While you can use either -50 degrees or -100 degrees, I always use -100 degrees in mine. Remember that the -50 starts to thicken in the teens. The engine is expensive, so I always use -100.

Both AC and sometimes the gennie intakes will develop an "airlock", which will prevent the pink from flowing through. So, care must be taken to ensure that the strainer is topped up with the antifreeze, or it may stop running it through. I had this situation with our AC's.

For the AC's I used a compressor to blow the lines out. If you do that, consider that you have two outlet drains for the raw water if you have two AC's. You will need to have someone hold a dowel or something else against one outlet, while the air is flowing out of the other. I kept the pressure at 20 or 30 lbs, not wanting to blow a hole in the AC lines. That should be sufficient to move the water out. I didn't run pink through, but never had a problem. We would very occasionally get below zero, but only for a very short period. YMMV!

I made it easy on myself. I always used the Seaflush tool, which worked like a charm. Search SeaFlush and watch a couple of videos. (The added advantage is that you can run Barnacle Buster through the raw water system using the SeaFlush if you want to clean out the exchangers, etc.) For the engine, I would fill a five gallon bucket with the pink. Then after the engine starts up, I would pour three more gallons into the bucket as it drains through the Seaflush, and then the engine. Simple, and a lot less messy than trying to hold a funnel, and deal with the gallon jugs and "hitting the hole" while trying to keep up with the flow.

It was especially handy for the gennie, in a tight space for me, with the airlock issue. Again, the AC would airlock anyway, so for the AC I would just blow out the lines.

For the first year, you may want to buy a Temp Stick, and monitor the ER temperature in different places relative to the outside air. I did that, and only got marginally below 32 at the engine when the outside air was below zero (I kept the boat in the water year round). However, the gennie was more prone to below 32 due to its location in the lazarette on my Carver.

Looks like the freshwater system has been well addressed already in this set of posts.

Hope this helps.

 

[ronobrien]

By blowing out the lines with air you minimize the level of dilution of the A/F. See post #60. He speaks to this. That is why it is helpful to blow them out first.

 

[Comodave]

By blowing out the lines with air you minimize the level of dilution of the A/F. See post #60. He speaks to this. That is why it is helpful to blow them out first.

Yes, but it is more work. I just used Blue -200 antifreeze and tested it with a refractometer. Then I know what it is good to. I may use a gallon or two more but it is less work and therefore worth it to me. Now we are just putting our current boat in heated storage so we don’t winterize anymore.

 

[backinblue]

I know this doesn't work for everyone, but if taste is a problem, use bottled water for drinking and coffee. Water tank is mainly for washing dishes, showers, etc. I do occasionally drink water from the tank and it's fine, but for the most part I just carry some bottled water.

 

[capran]

I know this doesn't work for everyone, but if taste is a problem, use bottled water for drinking and coffee. Water tank is mainly for washing dishes, showers, etc. I do occasionally drink water from the tank and it's fine, but for the most part I just carry some bottled water.

On our Catalina 34 we did carry 6 individual gallon jugs that were store bought water and we refilled when at a location that had water available. With the Helmsman 38 (Mariner Saville 37) we sure enjoyed our first year of being able to drink from the tap, since the PO kept the boat in the water and didn't have to winterize the tanks. This past summer we were out cruising from July 1 to Sept 4 and only stayed three nights in marinas. And even those with good water are getting harder to come by with the water shortages and quality issues in the PNW. We were often away from stores and services for 2 or more weeks at a time which makes it hard and expensive to replenish bottled water.

 

[capran]

I use pink first in plumbing then compressed air to remove pink sitting in lines

Great idea. I do have a question about how to use the compressor on a boat. is it like a sprinkler system where you hook up the compressor to your hose, only on a boat the hose is going into the 12V electric water pump and then open each faucet from farthest away to closest in turn until air comes out? or do you hook it up to a line after the water pump and open each hot and cold?

 

[ronobrien]

Great idea. I do have a question about how to use the compressor on a boat. is it like a sprinkler system where you hook up the compressor to your hose, only on a boat the hose is going into the 12V electric water pump and then open each faucet from farthest away to closest in turn until air comes out? or do you hook it up to a line after the water pump and open each hot and cold?

I'm not 100% but there may a chance that the higher pressure could affect the pressure switch or the pump. Personally I would remove the pump/pressure switch from the equation. It will take some special plumbing to accommodate the air connection, but done once you are then set up for life.

 

[ronobrien]

I know this doesn't work for everyone, but if taste is a problem, use bottled water for drinking and coffee. Water tank is mainly for washing dishes, showers, etc. I do occasionally drink water from the tank and it's fine, but for the most part I just carry some bottled water.

Depending on tank size a small amount of baking soda does a lot to mitigate foul taste. The caution is for people using water makers. The desalinated water tends to be a bit acidic (so I'm told) and the baking soda (base) will result in some amount of salts. I have NO idea how much this happens or if it is any appreciable amount. I have used this for years with seemingly favorable results, but I am not using a water maker.

 

[capran]

I'm not 100% but there may a chance that the higher pressure could affect the pressure switch or the pump. Personally I would remove the pump/pressure switch from the equation. It will take some special plumbing to accommodate the air connection, but done once you are then set up for life.

Thanks. I appreciate the advice. I do have very good access to the line coming out of the water pump, as there appears to be a back flow preventer (looks like a little filter looking device). That area needs to be reworked, as the PO cut the line too short that barely allowed room for 2 clamps. (there was only one clamp on each side which came loose and we lost 70 gallons before we discovered it).

 

[Cartouche]

Barrie,
I noticed a couple of posts about "Green versus pink". There are two different types of antifreeze. The pink is used to winterize and is ok to flow into the seawater. The other type is the kind that is always resident in your engine, and should be changed (usually around every five years). Never use that for winterizing.

When winterizing, there are a couple of things to consider.

The engine will use a relatively large flow of pink, to pull through the engine. So, if you plan to just pour the antifreeze into the strainer you will need to pour quickly, and have the bottles open and ready to switch out. I would use probably 7 to 9 gallons of the pink. While you can use either -50 degrees or -100 degrees, I always use -100 degrees in mine. Remember that the -50 starts to thicken in the teens. The engine is expensive, so I always use -100.

Both AC and sometimes the gennie intakes will develop an "airlock", which will prevent the pink from flowing through. So, care must be taken to ensure that the strainer is topped up with the antifreeze, or it may stop running it through. I had this situation with our AC's.

For the AC's I used a compressor to blow the lines out. If you do that, consider that you have two outlet drains for the raw water if you have two AC's. You will need to have someone hold a dowel or something else against one outlet, while the air is flowing out of the other. I kept the pressure at 20 or 30 lbs, not wanting to blow a hole in the AC lines. That should be sufficient to move the water out. I didn't run pink through, but never had a problem. We would very occasionally get below zero, but only for a very short period. YMMV!

I made it easy on myself. I always used the Seaflush tool, which worked like a charm. Search SeaFlush and watch a couple of videos. (The added advantage is that you can run Barnacle Buster through the raw water system using the SeaFlush if you want to clean out the exchangers, etc.) For the engine, I would fill a five gallon bucket with the pink. Then after the engine starts up, I would pour three more gallons into the bucket as it drains through the Seaflush, and then the engine. Simple, and a lot less messy than trying to hold a funnel, and deal with the gallon jugs and "hitting the hole" while trying to keep up with the flow.

It was especially handy for the gennie, in a tight space for me, with the airlock issue. Again, the AC would airlock anyway, so for the AC I would just blow out the lines.

For the first year, you may want to buy a Temp Stick, and monitor the ER temperature in different places relative to the outside air. I did that, and only got marginally below 32 at the engine when the outside air was below zero (I kept the boat in the water year round). However, the gennie was more prone to below 32 due to its location in the lazarette on my Carver.

Looks like the freshwater system has been well addressed already in this set of posts.

Hope this helps.

You do not use Universal (Green) or Red (Long Life) but you should use Green -100 https://www.marineoutfitters.ca/index.cfm?category=11171|11392&product=69813741&code=071247315004 as this has inhibitors to protect your raw water system check the Jug of Pink it very clearly states on the Jug "DO NOT USE IN AN ENGINE, ONLY USE IN PLUMBING"

 

[Helmsman]

You do not use Universal (Green) or Red (Long Life) but you should use Green -100 https://www.marineoutfitters.ca/index.cfm?category=11171|11392&product=69813741&code=071247315004 as this has inhibitors to protect your raw water system check the Jug of Pink it very clearly states on the Jug "DO NOT USE IN AN ENGINE, ONLY USE IN PLUMBING"

Thank you for bringing that up. That is a gotcha that I tripped across a few years ago. I don’t believe the color is the critical thing. On this link is the pink that is for use in an engine for -50. The “other” pink for -50 is clearly marked not for use in an engine.

https://www.westmarine.com/west-marine--50f-engine-water-system-antifreeze-gallon-499848.html

Here is the -100 for engine use.

https://www.westmarine.com/west-marine--100f-engine-water-system-antifreeze-gallon-363798.html

 

[Helmsman]

Here is a timely article from Boattest that discusses fresh water winterization.

https://boattest.com/article/water-system-autumn-maintenance

 

[backinblue]

Here is a timely article from Boattest that discusses fresh water winterization.

https://boattest.com/article/water-system-autumn-maintenance

Good article, thanks!

 

[Bacchus]

Here is a timely article from Boattest that discusses fresh water winterization.

https://boattest.com/article/water-system-autumn-maintenance

Good article, thanks!

Careful as the article is a very simplistic system and many have complicating factors to consider.
Ex: pumping head and adding AF leaves the hose from thru hull to head unprotected and will freeze & burst. You need to disconnect hosevat thru hull and put it in a jug of pink and use head pump to draw in thru hose and into the head discharging some into the hose to the holding tank.
If you have a dockside water inlet it will be a water filled dead end (check valve) and no place for the pumped pink to purge the line. That's part of why I hook up the compressor there and blow the water out.
No need to worry about using comp air - just set the pressure to 40-50 lbs that the system sees with dockside or water pump.
Instead of disconnecting water heater and pump inlet lines install a bypass and winterizing 3 way valve and it saves work every year and avoids leaks from repeated disconnect / reconnect.

 

[backinblue]

Agreed Don. It's a good start but not inclusive of everything on most boats. Toilet may be fresh water and not have a thru hull. Also things like fresh water or sea water washdowns, windshield washers, icemakers, etc, need to be winterized as well

 

[Bacchus]

Agreed Don. It's a good start but not inclusive of everything on most boats. Toilet may be fresh water and not have a thru hull. Also things like fresh water or sea water washdowns, windshield washers, icemakers, etc, need to be winterized as well

Agree even FW heads need more than dewatering and adding pink.
Water inlet from any source needs attention.

 

[backinblue]

I assume it's also required to run some through the bilge pumps and shower sump pump

 

[rslifkin]

I assume it's also required to run some through the bilge pumps and shower sump pump

Yup. I always run antifreeze through the shower pumps. And then after haulout, pump the bilges as dry as I can, dump some of the -100 antifreeze (knowing it'll get diluted a bit) into the bilge and then pump that out.

 

[Helmsman]

Careful as the article is a very simplistic system and many have complicating factors to consider.
Ex: pumping head and adding AF leaves the hose from thru hull to head unprotected and will freeze & burst. You need to disconnect hosevat thru hull and put it in a jug of pink and use head pump to draw in thru hose and into the head discharging some into the hose to the holding tank.
If you have a dockside water inlet it will be a water filled dead end (check valve) and no place for the pumped pink to purge the line. That's part of why I hook up the compressor there and blow the water out.
No need to worry about using comp air - just set the pressure to 40-50 lbs that the system sees with dockside or water pump.
Instead of disconnecting water heater and pump inlet lines install a bypass and winterizing 3 way valve and it saves work every year and avoids leaks from repeated disconnect / reconnect.

I would agree with you. Each owner needs to assess their own system fully to ensure that all possible places where water can travel is protected. The only way to do that is to trace everything. I had a bypass on the water heater in the last boat and used it during the process. The fresh water hook up was also a place that can be a problem.

I always advise first time "winterizers" to have a pro do it with them in attendance making notes. Also, a talk with other owners of the same boat can go a long way towards understanding unique circumstances on a particular boat.

 

[Comodave]

When I used to winterize we had an intake for the forward head and seawater wash down that used one through hull inlet. It would have been a major PITA to remove the hose from the seacock. So I took an outboard flushing adapter and cut off the part with the garden hose fitting and the muff. Then I used a row of plumbers putty on the inside of the muff to seal it to the through hull. I had a 5 gallon bucket that I epoxied a hose bib to. I would fill the bucket with antifreeze and hang it off the bow rail so the bottom of the bucket was above the through hull. Then hook a short garden hose from the bucket to the outboard muff and hold the muff to the through hull while my wife would flush the head and then run the pump for the seawater wash down. Worked well and was waaay easier than unhooking the intake hose.

 

[capran]

Careful as the article is a very simplistic system and many have complicating factors to consider.
Ex: pumping head and adding AF leaves the hose from thru hull to head unprotected and will freeze & burst. You need to disconnect hosevat thru hull and put it in a jug of pink and use head pump to draw in thru hose and into the head discharging some into the hose to the holding tank.
If you have a dockside water inlet it will be a water filled dead end (check valve) and no place for the pumped pink to purge the line. That's part of why I hook up the compressor there and blow the water out.
No need to worry about using comp air - just set the pressure to 40-50 lbs that the system sees with dockside or water pump.
Instead of disconnecting water heater and pump inlet lines install a bypass and winterizing 3 way valve and it saves work every year and avoids leaks from repeated disconnect / reconnect.

I am glad "backinblue" commented about the fresh water fed head, as that is the case with Mariner Saville 37/Helmsman38 2008 model. My thought there is to hook up the fresh water pump feed to RV pink fluid and flush twice. anyone have thoughts about that? also, the only "dockside water inlet" on mine is a fill cap much like the fuel and waste caps. Is that a non issue with my type, as that fill cap is what I use to fill the water tanks, which are connected. I will be emptying those in a few weeks when I return to the boat armed with equipment and items I am ordering as a result of these queries. as to the seaward water heater, my plan was to empty the tanks first which should lower the hot water heater, and to drain out what is remaining via the drain/ (marked in pic w/ yellow arrow). what am I missing?

 

[Helmsman]

I am glad "backinblue" commented about the fresh water fed head, as that is the case with Mariner Saville 37/Helmsman38 2008 model. My thought there is to hook up the fresh water pump feed to RV pink fluid and flush twice. anyone have thoughts about that? also, the only "dockside water inlet" on mine is a fill cap much like the fuel and waste caps. Is that a non issue with my type, as that fill cap is what I use to fill the water tanks, which are connected. I will be emptying those in a few weeks when I return to the boat armed with equipment and items I am ordering as a result of these queries. as to the seaward water heater, my plan was to empty the tanks first which should lower the hot water heater, and to drain out what is remaining via the drain/ (marked in pic w/ yellow arrow). what am I missing?

That works for the water heater, other than setting up a bypass of some type for it after it is emptied. Bypassing the water heater allows you to winterize the hot water feeds without getting AF in the water heater.

Many boats come with a dock side water fill that you would connect a hose to which would be connected to the dock side water supply. This allows a continuous supply of fresh water while at the dock. It also is a big contributor to dock side siblings when one of the fresh water connections in the boat leaks and the water is left on unattended. If you don’t have one, in my opinion, that is a good thing. Make sure that you run AF through the stern shower.

 

[backinblue]

I would flush more than twice because you not only want to pull the antifreeze through the toilet, but also want it to reach the holding tank.

 

[capran]

That works for the water heater, other than setting up a bypass of some type for it after it is emptied. Bypassing the water heater allows you to winterize the hot water feeds without getting AF in the water heater.

Many boats come with a dock side water fill that you would connect a hose to which would be connected to the dock side water supply. This allows a continuous supply of fresh water while at the dock. It also is a big contributor to dock side siblings when one of the fresh water connections in the boat leaks and the water is left on unattended. If you don’t have one, in my opinion, that is a good thing. Make sure that you run AF through the stern shower.

UGH! This inverted learning curve is not fun! I miss the simplicity of the Catalina 34. LOL Not sure how to set up a hot water heater bypass. sure wish the boat was all traditional hose and clamps rather than the apex or whatever it's called. any tips appreciated. wondering if as I go through when I get to the point of running RV pink through, if I could remove the connection that goes to the hot water heater and plug it so that what I'm going doesn't find it's way into the heater. also, do any Helmsman 38 owners know where to look for the windshield washer fluid reservoirs?

 

[backinblue]

UGH! This inverted learning curve is not fun! I miss the simplicity of the Catalina 34. LOL Not sure how to set up a hot water heater bypass. sure wish the boat was all traditional hose and clamps rather than the apex or whatever it's called. any tips appreciated. wondering if as I go through when I get to the point of running RV pink through, if I could remove the connection that goes to the hot water heater and plug it so that what I'm going doesn't find it's way into the heater. also, do any Helmsman 38 owners know where to look for the windshield washer fluid reservoirs?

My boat has a hot water bypass installed by the manufacturer. It's really quite simple and worth doing as it will make every winter prep easier. Just a matter of a couple valves and hoses.