Ranger Tugs to Helmsman 38E

[FWT]

We are seriously contemplating a similar move from RT to Helmsman. We love the 29 but want something with more displacement. In my searches, the Helmsman is about 30% less expensive than other similar sized trawlers. The Helmsman 43 vs. RT43 is a perfect example. Same goes for American Tug, Nordhavn, etc. Can someone explain this?

Cheers
Scott

Mine is on order so have not been through the whole process as others have.

(Note: Scott sent me the first photos this morning of my hull and deck out of the molds. What a welcome sight.)

I agree completely with what has been said. I'll add a few more things.

Its a case of how this business is run from top to bottom, beginning to end. Its just a well run business.

Yes, labor overseas is cheaper than in the US. By a lot. That's a big part of it. But having watched a lot of things unfold I would say it goes well past that.

That labor has to be skilled. And it is. Otherwise time and money spent making things right, or deliver a bad product, and they deliver quality.

I agree with the observation about the clean and organized shop. That speaks to the yard in China being well run. I don't want to get into running down the Ranger / Cutwater boats but the pics I have seen of work in process make me cringe. Maybe those were just bad exceptions to an overall good, but its what I have seen. Somewhere I saw something quite a while back on American, and I don't have any bad recollections of that, and don't think I've seen anything on the Nordic shop. But the Helmsman yard is as pristine as any. There are pics of the Nordhavn yard in Turkey building the N41, and the two are comparable.

But let's take this further.

Helmsman runs lean. Scott spearheads sales conversations. He takes the lead on commissioning when the boat arrives off the ship. He takes you through all of the many choices to be made with the orders. He has help, but there is no bloated organization of departments and staff that has to be fed, and management layers to manage them. This isn't the kind of business where the owner sits back in his paneled office or checks in once in a while from a constant personal vacation schedule. When I met Scott, as I approached he was down on one knee on a dock sorting out a piece of gear he was about to install.

Understand that when you are asking questions, you are talking to someone who has grease under the nails, so to speak. Knowledge borne from that, coupled with the more academic / theoretical background too.

I'd add in another thing, but American and Nordic should or could say this too. You would not be ordering hull #1. So they have had the years of building them that leads to efficiency. They know raw material supplies, and know how to size construction crews that are needed for each step.

Its just a well run business. Characterize it and hang more details, but that part of what it comes down to, beyond the less expensive overseas labor.

Now, consider that Helmsman's are semi-custom, each a little different than the next as YOU make YOUR choices, including on some key layout things. Lean and mean is the way to go so that there isn't a lot of communication kludged up from department to department.

It works.

So on another level, what does it matter just WHY? Judge the quality, the boat, the price and just smile as you order one.

My two cents.

 

[Helmsman]

Mine is on order so have not been through the whole process as others have.

(Note: Scott sent me the first photos this morning of my hull and deck out of the molds. What a welcome sight.)

I agree completely with what has been said. I'll add a few more things.

Its a case of how this business is run from top to bottom, beginning to end. Its just a well run business.

Yes, labor overseas is cheaper than in the US. By a lot. That's a big part of it. But having watched a lot of things unfold I would say it goes well past that.

That labor has to be skilled. And it is. Otherwise time and money spent making things right, or deliver a bad product, and they deliver quality.

I agree with the observation about the clean and organized shop. That speaks to the yard in China being well run. I don't want to get into running down the Ranger / Cutwater boats but the pics I have seen of work in process make me cringe. Maybe those were just bad exceptions to an overall good, but its what I have seen. Somewhere I saw something quite a while back on American, and I don't have any bad recollections of that, and don't think I've seen anything on the Nordic shop. But the Helmsman yard is as pristine as any. There are pics of the Nordhavn yard in Turkey building the N41, and the two are comparable.

But let's take this further.

Helmsman runs lean. Scott spearheads sales conversations. He takes the lead on commissioning when the boat arrives off the ship. He takes you through all of the many choices to be made with the orders. He has help, but there is no bloated organization of departments and staff that has to be fed, and management layers to manage them. This isn't the kind of business where the owner sits back in his paneled office or checks in once in a while from a constant personal vacation schedule. When I met Scott, as I approached he was down on one knee on a dock sorting out a piece of gear he was about to install.

Understand that when you are asking questions, you are talking to someone who has grease under the nails, so to speak. Knowledge borne from that, coupled with the more academic / theoretical background too.

I'd add in another thing, but American and Nordic should or could say this too. You would not be ordering hull #1. So they have had the years of building them that leads to efficiency. They know raw material supplies, and know how to size construction crews that are needed for each step.

Its just a well run business. Characterize it and hang more details, but that part of what it comes down to, beyond the less expensive overseas labor.

Now, consider that Helmsman's are semi-custom, each a little different than the next as YOU make YOUR choices, including on some key layout things. Lean and mean is the way to go so that there isn't a lot of communication kludged up from department to department.

It works.

So on another level, what does it matter just WHY? Judge the quality, the boat, the price and just smile as you order one.

My two cents.

Well stated and accurate. I toured the American Tug factory as a part of my assessment of the two. The factory tour was interesting and the people were nice people. The employees knew what they were doing and did it well.



I chose the Helmsman because we liked the lines better, and the interior layout better. But the single most important determinant to me was Gary and Scott at Helmsman. The testimonials from owners were great to hear, but spending a day looking at a 38 and a 43 in Seattle made the decision much easier. That initial inclination has proven true all the way through the build process. Helmsman sincerely wants you to enjoy the process, and has accepted change requests with the desire to do the right thing by the customer. it has been a really good experience.

 

[FWT]

Helmsman: and I agree with your last points too.

To NSM though I'd like to add something. Your question sort of invited a comparison to American and Nordic. I don't know them as well as Helmsman, but everything I've seen says they are good boats. I don't want to appear to slight them because that's not my intent. The owners all swear by them. They hold good values from what I can see so that says a lot too. Things like layout are pure personal taste, and things like the desire to run regularly at speeds in the teens are what they are made to do more so than the Helmsmans. Its not like you can go wrong with any of those choices that check the most of your personal boxes of likes and wants. The H38 did it for me and my goals, but that's just me.

 

[rgano]

It is a lovely boat, and I am sure you will enjoy it. My preference when I was in a boat that size was to have walk-around main deck, and I would probably repeat that today. I know this Helmsman design gives a lot of additional interior space, but that's just my preference and use case to not restrict deck access. Glad you are all excited. Whoo-hoo.

 

[NSM]

The admiral and I went to Seattle and saw a new 43 being delivered to Canada. Serious discussions are underway..

 

[Hydraulicjump]

Gotta say. We walked the 43 and both agreed it is an amazing live aboard boat. A palace in fact. And the extra stateroom to stash dogs and/or grandkids is a major bonus. The 37 sedan was very attractive for this reason too.

Coming from the Ranger Tug cult, this motto still applies: get the smallest boat you can afford. Cost, ease of single handing, dock and maintenance, etc made the 38e the smallest boat we could afford. And still, at 3X the displacement of our RT29CB, it seems immense to me. I am sure I will get used to it. In a big hurry.

And do any of you think it is worth my while posting our RT29CB on the for sale on this website? This doesn’t seem like the place that wannabe RT owners gravitate to. Here it is on BoatTrader in case you have friends who want a “smallest boat they can afford”:

https://www.boattrader.com/boat/2015-ranger-tugs-29cb-8347414/

Thanks,

Jeff

 

[Helmsman]

Gotta say. We walked the 43 and both agreed it is an amazing live aboard boat. A palace in fact. And the extra stateroom to stash dogs and/or grandkids is a major bonus. The 37 sedan was very attractive for this reason too.

Coming from the Ranger Tug cult, this motto still applies: get the smallest boat you can afford. Cost, ease of single handing, dock and maintenance, etc made the 38e the smallest boat we could afford. And still, at 3X the displacement of our RT29CB, it seems immense to me. I am sure I will get used to it. In a big hurry.

And do any of you think it is worth my while posting our RT29CB on the for sale on this website? This doesn’t seem like the place that wannabe RT owners gravitate to. Here it is on BoatTrader in case you have friends who want a “smallest boat they can afford”:

https://www.boattrader.com/boat/2015-ranger-tugs-29cb-8347414/

Thanks,

Jeff

Nice boat! Clean. Do you like the Takacat? I was looking at the one without the nose, just the pontoons.

 

[Hydraulicjump]

We love the Takacat. Indeed, our new/used H38e comes with a fancy one year old RIB and 6hp engine. We are going to sell it and buy a new Takacat with Torqeedo (and an extra battery this time).

Hard to find the closed nose Takacat. We ordered ours direct from NZ. It is a little dryer in the rough stuff. But the open-nosed Takacat is great for loading and unloading old dogs from the beach or onto the swim platform.

As you saw, we have it on Weaver davits on our RT. It is great to have a boat light enough that I can just pull it up by myself and attach the standoffs with no drama. And the wheels make it easy to haul it up beaches single hand to deal with the 14’ tides of the PNW. There is an alternative NZ boat called a Kit that also looks great.

This site is full of dinghy discussions and advice. Not intending to light one off here!

Jeff

 

[Helmsman]

We love the Takacat. Indeed, our new/used H38e comes with a fancy one year old RIB and 6hp engine. We are going to sell it and buy a new Takacat with Torqeedo (and an extra battery this time).

Hard to find the closed nose Takacat. We ordered ours direct from NZ. It is a little dryer in the rough stuff. But the open-nosed Takacat is great for loading and unloading old dogs from the beach or onto the swim platform.

As you saw, we have it on Weaver davits on our RT. It is great to have a boat light enough that I can just pull it up by myself and attach the standoffs with no drama. And the wheels make it easy to haul it up beaches single hand to deal with the 14’ tides of the PNW. There is an alternative NZ boat called a Kit that also looks great.

This site is full of dinghy discussions and advice. Not intending to light one off here!

Jeff

I will probably go with one, too. I have a three year old dinghy to get rid of also.

 

[Nick14]

Well stated and accurate. I toured the American Tug factory as a part of my assessment of the two. The factory tour was interesting and the people were nice people. The employees knew what they were doing and did it well.

I chose the Helmsman because we liked the lines better, and the interior layout better. But the single most important determinant to me was Gary and Scott at Helmsman. The testimonials from owners were great to hear, but spending a day looking at a 38 and a 43 in Seattle made the decision much easier. That initial inclination has proven true all the way through the build process. Helmsman sincerely wants you to enjoy the process, and has accepted change requests with the desire to do the right thing by the customer. it has been a really good experience.

FWIW, we've owned two American Tugs (2001-34 and 2013-39). From my own ownership experiences (and of course IMHO, YMMV) I think AT is an extremely well-designed, well-engineered, extraordinarily well-built boat.

The more time I spent on them, the more I appreciated the details. For me, the way I truly get to know how a boat is built is by crawling into the dark places few people look (which is getting (much) harder with advancing age and arthritis...). The way a builder designs and makes things in the places most people never see tells you a lot. The AT shines brightly in that department.

Spend some time in the engine room of an AT. Everything is well-organized, well-lit, and accessible. The electrical wiring is done to commercial boat standards. Everything is laid out with plenty of room for service and repairs. Everything is also made tougher than it probably needs to be for most uses. It results in a solid-feeling boat.

They're not blue-water passagemakers. But that's not the kind of boating most people do. In the real world most are coastal cruisers. The AT line is based on the original Lynn Senour hull that was a fishing boat, designed for coastal fishing. The boats still have that heritage in their design and feel - capable of handling most things the coast will throw at you, but not crossing oceans.

Most owners seem to cruise them at displacement speeds. But the hard chine hulls (at least on the 34 and 39, somewhat less so on the 41) are true semi-displacement (or semi-planing, potato, potatoe) capable of cruising speeds in the teens.

They may not have the glossiest, glitziest interiors or most highly polished wood finishes. Few people accuse the exterior styling of being glamorous or downright beautiful. They have a bit of a workboat feel. The boat feels like it was designed and built by an engineer, which it was - Kurt Dilworth, previously VP Manufacturing and now President of the company. He's a knowledgeable, solid, responsive, careful person who does everything thoughtfully and seriously.

My wife (who is not a boat person by the wildest stretch of any imagination) summarized the AT. After all the boats we've had together, she said she feels 'safe' on an AT. They're the real deal.

That said, we recently placed an order for a new Helmsman. As others have said, the Helmsman is a great value for the price, but (again IMHO, YMMV) to me it's definitely anything but a 'price boat.' Also as others have commented, for me a major factor in the process was Scott Helker. In my conversations with him he couldn't have been more responsive, accommodating, flexible, informative, and forthright. I don't know how he can give so much time given everything he's juggling. His commitment is impressive.

For me the people are one of (if not the) most important factor, who you deal with, what they're like to deal with, if there's a feeling of trust that engenders confidence. After all, a new boat in this price range is a LOT of money (certainly for me is). I need to feel comfortable with what the people I'm sending my money to are going to do with it.

Helmsman design is thoughtful and construction quality seems excellent, again (to me, IMHO) clearly above average. Scott was patient in answering my (many, many) questions, infuriating nitpicky things that most people might not bother with. I was impressed with the thoughtfulness he put into the design and build of the boats. Things like solid glass (not cored) hulls. Decks and superstructure cored with honeycomb (NidaCore), with no balsa used in the construction. Those kinds of design and construction details are important to me.

Some of the models seem to overlap with the same target market (38E pilothouse with the AT36/39), others offer design differences and unique features (such as the Sedan with full walk-around decks). The Helmsman hull design is more 'traditional' semi-displacement with a deep forefoot transitioning to flat aft sections. It's soft-chine, though with full-length chine extensions. Interior layouts differ from the AT (and Nordic). There also seems to be a greater variety of options and features possible than AT.

Unless one is lucky enough for money to be no object, it's a factor in most of life's decisions (it certainly is in mine, at least if I want to stay married). A new AT39 is about 50% more than a comparably-equipped Helmsman 38. Whether it's worth the price premium or not is a purely personal decision (plus the reality of what is affordable).

 

[bowball]

Coming from the Ranger Tug cult, this motto still applies: get the smallest boat you can afford. Cost, ease of single handing, dock and maintenance, etc made the 38e the smallest boat we could afford. And still, at 3X the displacement of our RT29CB, it seems immense to me. I am sure I will get used to it. In a big hurry.

Here it is on BoatTrader in case you have friends who want a “smallest boat they can afford”:

https://www.boattrader.com/boat/2015-ranger-tugs-29cb-8347414/

Thanks,

Jeff

Smallest boat I can afford is awfully awfully small...quite a bit smaller than the biggest boat I can afford, even though that itself may be small.

Just teasing.

 

[Nick14]

Smallest boat I can afford is awfully awfully small...quite a bit smaller than the biggest boat I can afford, even though that itself may be small.

Just teasing.

I think the more practical dictum might be ‘get the smallest boat that will meet your needs.’

The smallest boat I could afford might be an inflatable ducky, but it probably wouldn’t meet our needs.

 

[Hydraulicjump]

Changing the size conversation…I was wondering if any Helmsman 38 owners have retrofitted a Splendide or other brand washer/dryer in their boat. Our prospective boat does not have one, but we’d sure like to find a way to squeeze one in. I think there is space to put one in behind the door from the day head to the engine room, but in this case it would face into the engine room. Venting and discharge would require some thinking.

Again, this is something that would have been “solved” if we had ordered a new boat like so many of you. And we may find that it is not worth the $ and surgery to the boat, leaving marina laundries as a better bet. Still, our benchmark trip is 2-3 months on board to Alaska and back and having this luxury seems like a good idea worth exploring.

The other retrofit—a water maker—is easier with all these great portables that are coming on the market. No need to do anything fancy there.

Jeff

 

[bowball]

I think for that cruise a water maker is much more important than a washer/drier if you are deciding between them; it wasn’t clear from your post whether it was a choice, and assuming you gave the power for them.

 

[FWT]

I didn't really pursue the issue much with Helmsman as I made the order. But indeed that space is where they talk about a possible installation on a 38

As a retrofit, just know the door to the engine room swings into the engine room. One would have to remove the door and have the washer unit face into the head. And figure out a way to seal off the edges of the unit around the bulkhead. Personally I would not want to just face the washer into the engine room, leave the door intact but closed, and drag laundry into an engine room. Just guessing, but I'd think in a new build Helmsman would eliminate the door, do some surgery on the door opening, and create some sort of facing / surround to the washer to make it a clean install. Hard to do in retrofit.

The 43 is a different story. The lazarette below the galley is enough inches taller that a unit can fit in there, and that's where it would go. You can see that in the 43 pics in the Helmsman website.

 

[Hydraulicjump]

Thanks. Short of some pretty significant surgery along with removing the door and then building new trim, this may be a retrofit too far for the boat. Still, when I measured it a few months ago while climbing around on a 2016 and it looked like you could fit one in the space behind the door to the engine room. You just have to remove the handles on the door (part of sealing it up).

Which begs a question, how often do Helmsman 38 owners duck walk through that space to get to the engine? Pretty sure I am going to access the engine room through the hatch in the floor. Even when it is running. This access and door from the day head shows up well on picture 17 of the Helmsman 38e website pop up:

https://www.helmsmantrawlers.com/helmsman-trawlers/38e-pilothouse/#gkit-popup

If there is not going to be a washer/dryer in there, fold up small bikes are going in there for sure.

 

[OldDan1943]

On my AT34, I really wanted both a water maker and a washer/dryer.
I have the perfect cabinet for a Splendide in the saloon. I put the water maker in the ER on a shelf.
Now a warning: guys, get used to wearing wrinkled clothes.
Yen hand washes her clothes and hangs them in the cockpit to dry and irons her clothes as she sees fit.
Yen will iron my Sunday type shirts and slacks but, I have to pitch a fit, roll around on the floor and cry. LOL, Just teasing. I caught her getting ready to iron my shorts and pull over shirts. I told her it was not necessary.

 

[Helmsman]

Thanks. Short of some pretty significant surgery along with removing the door and then building new trim, this may be a retrofit too far for the boat. Still, when I measured it a few months ago while climbing around on a 2016 and it looked like you could fit one in the space behind the door to the engine room. You just have to remove the handles on the door (part of sealing it up).

Which begs a question, how often do Helmsman 38 owners duck walk through that space to get to the engine? Pretty sure I am going to access the engine room through the hatch in the floor. Even when it is running. This access and door from the day head shows up well on picture 17 of the Helmsman 38e website pop up:

https://www.helmsmantrawlers.com/helmsman-trawlers/38e-pilothouse/#gkit-popup

If there is not going to be a washer/dryer in there, fold up small bikes are going in there for sure.

When a customer orders a 38 and wants a W/D the day head door to the engine room is where Scott usually suggests putting it. I have seen a picture and will see if I can dig one up to post here. The washer faces into the day head, the door is removed. Besides plumbing and venting, you will probably need to consider insulation for sound and ER heat around the W/D. If you enjoy doing work like that, it isn’t major, major surgery.

I can’t remember if the door opening is slightly larger or not.

I don’t have mine yet, but the hatches will probably be the go to method for me, too. I opted out of the W/D but may end up adding one at some point. I just didn’t want another system on the boat, until I used it some. There are small portable washers that people use in lieu of a Splendide.

 

[Helmsman]

Here is a picture

 

[Hydraulicjump]

Thanks for the pic. I have seen this online in many places. To do this conversion I think I need a sawzall and a very good shipwright. I am starting to like sitting in marina laundries much more than I used to.

 

[Fletcher500]

Thanks for the pic. I have seen this online in many places. To do this conversion I think I need a sawzall and a very good shipwright. I am starting to like sitting in marina laundries much more than I used to.

We have one in the aft ER space just forward of where the Gyro sits. We use it quite a bit when at the Islands where we can be parked for several weeks at a time. And when our kids and their significant others are on board the laundry adds up quick especially towels. However, in hindsight not sure I would do it again and probably just let it pile up and deal with it when back at the dock.

 

[FWT]

Fletcher, the taller vertical height your 43 has, that allows that placement, is a nice feature.

 

[Helmsman]

We have one in the aft ER space just forward of where the Gyro sits. We use it quite a bit when at the Islands where we can be parked for several weeks at a time. And when our kids and their significant others are on board the laundry adds up quick especially towels. However, in hindsight not sure I would do it again and probably just let it pile up and deal with it when back at the dock.

Interesting, Bill. With your travels I would have thought it would be something you would recommend. I chose not to. With your hindsight, would be good to hear the reasons behind not being sure about doing it again. Thanks for any advice you can provide.

 

[Fletcher500]

Interesting, Bill. With your travels I would have thought it would be something you would recommend. I chose not to. With your hindsight, would be good to hear the reasons behind not being sure about doing it again. Thanks for any advice you can provide.

I was on the fence, but it was on my wife's list when were picking options. The Splendide units can only handle a small load of wash and it takes about 2 hours for a full cycle and to get things dry if you have beach towels in there.

The two positives are therefore clean clothes, and I am able to keep the Gen properly loaded while at anchor or on a mooring ball. We have a 9KW Gen so that can be difficult after the batteries are topped off, the water is hot, etc. Running the Washer on one leg while making water on the other leg (I can switch the water maker from L1 to L2 depending on loads). If our Gen is run too long on low load it starts wet stacking and a slight fuel sheen occurs in the exhaust. Oil reports every 2 years note no fuel dilution is occurring so its nothing major. Loading the Gen to about 75% every 6 to 8 hours for about an hour is enough to keep it happy again.

If one were traveling in really remote places or never visiting docks it would definitely make sense to have one. We are on different coasts, but our cruising grounds are probably similar in that we will eventually return to land and just find a coin operated place. I think your plan to skip it makes sense.

 

[Helmsman]

I was on the fence, but it was on my wife's list when were picking options. The Splendide units can only handle a small load of wash and it takes about 2 hours for a full cycle and to get things dry if you have beach towels in there.

The two positives are therefore clean clothes, and I am able to keep the Gen properly loaded while at anchor or on a mooring ball. We have a 9KW Gen so that can be difficult after the batteries are topped off, the water is hot, etc. Running the Washer on one leg while making water on the other leg (I can switch the water maker from L1 to L2 depending on loads). If our Gen is run too long on low load it starts wet stacking and a slight fuel sheen occurs in the exhaust. Oil reports every 2 years note no fuel dilution is occurring so its nothing major. Loading the Gen to about 75% every 6 to 8 hours for about an hour is enough to keep it happy again.

If one were traveling in really remote places or never visiting docks it would definitely make sense to have one. We are on different coasts, but our cruising grounds are probably similar in that we will eventually return to land and just find a coin operated place. I think your plan to skip it makes sense.

Thanks! Is your shore power 30 amp or 50 amp?

 

[Nick14]

It is a lovely boat, and I am sure you will enjoy it. My preference when I was in a boat that size was to have walk-around main deck, and I would probably repeat that today. I know this Helmsman design gives a lot of additional interior space, but that's just my preference and use case to not restrict deck access. Glad you are all excited. Whoo-hoo.

Just stumbled across your post. I think we're in the minority, of preferring unrestricted walk-around main deck access over additional cabin space.

In the many years I've spent on boats I've experienced first-hand the problems that can happen when access to a part of the boat is hindered (as the missing half of the meniscus in my left knee can attest to).

I totally get it that docking and other close quarters maneuvering represents a small fraction of the time spent on a boat, being docked or anchored the majority, and thus the logic of emphasizing where one spends the most time (which is inside the cabin). My mind makes adjustments for importance and risk. Though the time I spend on deck handling lines, hanging fenders, anchoring, fending off from docks, hard damaging objects or other people's expensive boats is a tiny fraction of the time I spend in the cabin, those are critically important times. If I can't quickly and easily access every part of the boat I need to in order to do those things, bad and expensive things can happen very fast.

But it's easier in my case to trade off cabin space for deck access, because it's just my wife and I that ever use our boat. We occasionally have guests for drinks and conversation, once in a blue moon (maybe once every 10 years?) a friend will join us for a short day trip, and never have had anyone sleep aboard other than us (and never will). As long as there's enough room for the two of us to be comfortable, and do all the things we need and like to do (being underway, lounging, sleeping, eating) it meets the purpose.

YMMV.

 

[OldDan1943]

my sweet beautiful GF would like a 2nd stateroom so she could have a second closet. LOL

 

[Nick14]

my sweet beautiful GF would like a 2nd stateroom so she could have a second closet. LOL

LOL, that's all? You're very lucky! There are very simple solutions to give her exactly what she wants: the AT 39 or 41.

Unfortunately for me, while my wife tolerates (barely) and supports (mostly) my boating addiction, she would MUCH prefer that I didn't want a boat at all.

 

[OldDan1943]

LOL, that's all? You're very lucky! There are very simple solutions to give her exactly what she wants: the AT 39 or 41.

Unfortunately for me, while my wife tolerates (barely) and supports (mostly) my boating addiction, she would MUCH prefer that I didn't want a boat at all.

Nick you dont understand Dave. I gave her 3 out 4 drawers in the stateroom and half of the closet in the SR and that's not enough. I did put a hose clamp on the rod so she couldnt sneak more than 1/2 of the clothes hanging rod, which has tried before I put the hose clamp on the rod. LOL

 

[Nick14]

Nick you dont understand Dave. I gave her 3 out 4 drawers in the stateroom and half of the closet in the SR and that's not enough. I did put a hose clamp on the rod so she couldnt sneak more than 1/2 of the clothes hanging rod, which has tried before I put the hose clamp on the rod. LOL

Like I said, there are easy solutions for that. Both the AT 39 (small) and 41/43 (huge) have second staterooms. She could have it all for herself.

Easy peasy. Just takes money.