New Helmsman model - 38 Sedan

[Fletcher500]

That is a nice looking layout Nick. Congrats on the new build.

 

[Nick14]

That is a nice looking layout Nick. Congrats on the new build.

Thank you!

 

[Phyrcooler]

In terms of engine options, none of the new Cummins engines are naturally aspirated, probably for emissions control reasons. None of the other manufacturers are doing NA engines either to my knowledge. Here are engine specs that give you an idea of the cost of speed. The 250hp will cruise at 8kt and give you a decent range, and get to 11kt on a flat out push burning 13gph. The change to a 380hp costs about $4000 per knot of max speed at a fuel consumption of 20gph (the attached article has performance data). The 425hp and 480hp options push the envelope further. You go faster, but at 25gph you'd need to refuel every 14 hours of run time. The math just didn't work for me. Timing the current on the inside passage, 8kt can become 14kt with no extra fuel cost.

Thank you for taking the time posting this. I hadn’t ever bothered to pull data sheets on these motors. I had assumed that the 250 was a N/A engine (or at least not aftercooled). If you’re already running a T/A motor, the $8,000 difference is money well spent for the flexibility. From all data, it would appear that the 380hp is the better motor for either vessel. It would be interesting to hear some first hand kts/gph from some owners. I’m wondering if the 250 hp will be lucky to run 10k full throttle, let alone max continuous.

Because long stretches of the loop are typically run at slower speeds, I’m curious if Cummins provides any partial throttle guidance. Although, at 1400 - 1500 rpm, you may be into enough boost for things to run hot enough. And being common rail and digital-precise, it may be a non issue of long hours at low RPM like some of the older turbo diesels. I may seek out a QSB operating manual later.

 

[Phyrcooler]

One other point.

Why not more than 380 while I'm at it?

I think Scott will tell you that at the speeds above what the 380 will give you, you need trim tabs. So cross that Rubicon and you have both an engine upgrade cost and trim tab cost, and throw in there will be some small level of ongoing maintenance of the tabs and so forth. I kept life simple by stopping short of that need.

I agree with your thoughts entirely. I really believe in the KISS principle, and that’s critical in any future boat purchase for us.

Additionally, having easily accessed maintenance points, component locations designed with repair/replacement in mind, and well thought out plumbing and electrical runs are essential. The design/engineering on our Mainship was almost criminal! There were items that you KNOW would need maintenance during the lifetime of the boat that literally required you to cut access panels to reach. It seemed like there wasn’t a thing that I worked on over the years that wasn’t befouled by some stupid installation decision! Most of what I have seen on Helmsman has been pretty good, but I admit I have not crawled through with a purchaser’s hat on! The ability to do so pre and during construction is invaluable.

 

[FWT]

I agree with your thoughts entirely. I really believe in the KISS principle, and that’s critical in any future boat purchase for us.

Additionally, having easily accessed maintenance points, component locations designed with repair/replacement in mind, and well thought out plumbing and electrical runs are essential. The design/engineering on our Mainship was almost criminal! There were items that you KNOW would need maintenance during the lifetime of the boat that literally required you to cut access panels to reach. It seemed like there wasn’t a thing that I worked on over the years that wasn’t befouled by some stupid installation decision! Most of what I have seen on Helmsman has been pretty good, but I admit I have not crawled through with a purchaser’s hat on! The ability to do so pre and during construction is invaluable.

Thanks

I do think you would be impressed with the ability to reach maintenance items.

Having said that, mine is on order so I've not done anything in there with a wrench yet. I have every confidence I'll have something to cuss at, just because its a boat after all, and something somewhere will arise. Its inevitable.

 

[Ric]

OK, This thread has prompted me to update the order to the 380hp engine. It isn't a power issue per se - our 33mt diesel duck does 8.5kt with a Cummins 6BT at 180hp - but because as others noted, for resale folks will like the fact that it has optional added power.
The biggest downside for me is that I will also need to add the trolling gear option, which is another 8K and doubles the cost of the engine upgrade. The 380hp idles at close to 4kt, which is too fast for salmon fishing and frankly faster than I want to be going when entering a crowded marina with narrow fairways. I have displacement boat reflexes. I drove a Carver 45 once with electronic controls and a 4kt idle, and there was a fractional pause before it leapt into or out of gear. I am sure that trying to do controlled docking with surge-induced whiplash shortened my lifespan. And distressed the Admiral.
Cheers,
Ric

 

[FWT]

Ric:

Congrats.

And, at 30,000 lbs plus under your feet, I've not seen anything in any clips to suggest whiplash action. Sure hoping not.

 

[FWT]

Phy:

"There were items that you KNOW would need maintenance during the lifetime of the boat that literally required you to cut access panels to reach. It seemed like there wasn’t a thing that I worked on over the years that wasn’t befouled by some stupid installation decision!"

Ric's latest post had me re-reading yours.

One of the popular YouTube channels about a couple cruising on a Nordhavn had a segment where he was changing out batteries. To get to some of them he had to disassemble and remove some sort of storage cabinetry or similar, down in the engine compartment. Chatter as he's doing that, that this was the first time he'd accessed them. I am guessing he was not the original owner. My first thought was, he'd owned this for some years now, and in that time those battery terminals were never checked or even glanced at. No wonder given what he had to do to get to them. This was on a Nordhavn which many of us grant bullet-proof status to. The point being, the issue can occur on the best of brands.

 

[Ric]

No whiplash with the diesel duck. You'd need a ramjet engine to make her leap. That whiplash was with a Carver 45 we once chartered with another family. The shift lag drove me bonkers. I'm trusting that Cummins e-shifting has no similar problems.

 

[Helmsman]

Nick, you made some great choices. Congratulations! I think that interior layout will become a popular option for folks moving forward. I like the idea of the extended bedroom and larger shower, and head. Opinions differ, but I am on the side of one stateroom. A friend of mine is building a 43 with one bedroom, doing the same expansion you are doing. I think it will turn out well for him, too.

I went with the 480 and trim tabs. I won’t use it often, but when I want to, I will have it. My wife was a staunch advocate of it, or I may have ended up with the 380.

The quality of the work that Helmsman produces on the boat was one of the biggest selling points for me. The biggest selling point was their reputation. We will receive our 38E this fall. So far, the process has been easy and seamless for us. When we have questions, or want to change something, we engage in a good, common sense discussion with Helmsman and end up jointly reaching the best solution. A lot of fun working through a build with this company.

 

[Nick14]

Nick, you made some great choices. Congratulations! I think that interior layout will become a popular option for folks moving forward. I like the idea of the extended bedroom and larger shower, and head. Opinions differ, but I am on the side of one stateroom. A friend of mine is building a 43 with one bedroom, doing the same expansion you are doing. I think it will turn out well for him, too.

I went with the 480 and trim tabs. I won’t use it often, but when I want to, I will have it. My wife was a staunch advocate of it, or I may have ended up with the 380.

The quality of the work that Helmsman produces on the boat was one of the biggest selling points for me. The biggest selling point was their reputation. We will receive our 38E this fall. So far, the process has been easy and seamless for us. When we have questions, or want to change something, we engage in a good, common sense discussion with Helmsman and end up jointly reaching the best solution. A lot of fun working through a build with this company.

Thank you!

Your wife was a 'staunch advocate' of the 480 hp Cummins engine, lol? It sounds like our wives might have some similar views. Mine was not an ardent advocate of any particular engine, as long as we could cruise at a minimum of 14 knots. The alternative was that I would be exclusively a 'solo mariner.' :lol:

 

[rslifkin]

Thank you!

Your wife was a 'staunch advocate' of the 480 hp Cummins engine, lol? It sounds like our wives might have some similar views. Mine was not an ardent advocate of any particular engine, as long as we could cruise at a minimum of 14 knots. The alternative was that I would be exclusively a 'solo mariner.' :lol:

With our boat, I solved the problem of the admiral wanting to blast around at 17 kts all the time (instead of a much more efficient 6.5) by telling her I'm happy to speed up if she pays for fuel. She never took that offer, and she's finally starting to get used to going slow most of the time.

 

[Nick14]

With our boat, I solved the problem of the admiral wanting to blast around at 17 kts all the time (instead of a much more efficient 6.5) by telling her I'm happy to speed up if she pays for fuel. She never took that offer, and she's finally starting to get used to going slow most of the time.

:lol:

That wouldn't work for me. It all comes out of the same pool of money, so we effectively both pay for everything.

My wife is totally fine with the boat going 7 knots. She just won't be on it.

To her credit, she's tried. Multiple times. She's responded to my 'encouragement' that she consider our getting a slower boat by looking at several displacement trawlers with me on the latest search, and by going sailing with friends of ours several times (moving along at 6-7 knots). I appreciate her trying, but she just can't do it.

She does love the styling and general feel of most full-displacement boats. Her favorite was a Selene 42 Europa (I liked it too). Came close on that one. I'm hoping the Helmsman 38 Sedan will capture much of that feel for her, but with the ability to go fast enough to keep her aboard.

 

[bnoft]

Gentlemen, I completely understand the issue, my wife dislikes 8 kts as well. We bought the OA, which cruises at 15-18 kts but drinks diesel like the proverbial sailor at that speed (I don't intend to disrespect sailors, be they rag boaters or Navy types). Now with fuel at $6/gal, I hear about the cost of operating the boat, haven't figured out how to solve both issues.

 

[Helmsman]

Thank you!

Your wife was a 'staunch advocate' of the 480 hp Cummins engine, lol? It sounds like our wives might have some similar views. Mine was not an ardent advocate of any particular engine, as long as we could cruise at a minimum of 14 knots. The alternative was that I would be exclusively a 'solo mariner.' :lol:

I was surprised by how adamant she was about the “need for speed”. She is usually all about the finishes on a boat! It will be interesting to see if she even cares once we are underway. The fact is that the higher HP motors run extremely well at lower speeds too.

 

[Nick14]

Gentlemen, I completely understand the issue, my wife dislikes 8 kts as well. We bought the OA, which cruises at 15-18 kts but drinks diesel like the proverbial sailor at that speed (I don't intend to disrespect sailors, be they rag boaters or Navy types). Now with fuel at $6/gal, I hear about the cost of operating the boat, haven't figured out how to solve both issues.

Well, seems to me there are three possible options (apparently for both of us).

1) Go boating alone.

2) Pay the price to go faster.

3) Find a new Admiral who likes going slow.

#1 isn’t as much fun, though I foresee that some of the time in my future. Between #2 and #3, I think no matter how expensive fuel becomes, it’s still much cheaper than divorce.

 

[Nick14]

I was surprised by how adamant she was about the “need for speed”. She is usually all about the finishes on a boat! It will be interesting to see if she even cares once we are underway. The fact is that the higher HP motors run extremely well at lower speeds too.

Mine as well, with a usual focus on interior finishes (the finish on woodwork is very important to her, which is what she liked about the Selene).

As much as I’m old-school and prefer simplicity in mechanical systems (less to go wrong), you’re right, that’s a big plus of modern computer-controlled engines. Unlike the older engines, they can be reasonably operated at lower speeds with much less risk of carbon build-up, etc. of motors of the past.

 

[Phyrcooler]

Phy:

"There were items that you KNOW would need maintenance during the lifetime of the boat that literally required you to cut access panels to reach. It seemed like there wasn’t a thing that I worked on over the years that wasn’t befouled by some stupid installation decision!"

Ric's latest post had me re-reading yours.

One of the popular YouTube channels about a couple cruising on a Nordhavn had a segment where he was changing out batteries. To get to some of them he had to disassemble and remove some sort of storage cabinetry or similar, down in the engine compartment. Chatter as he's doing that, that this was the first time he'd accessed them. I am guessing he was not the original owner. My first thought was, he'd owned this for some years now, and in that time those battery terminals were never checked or even glanced at. No wonder given what he had to do to get to them. This was on a Nordhavn which many of us grant bullet-proof status to. The point being, the issue can occur on the best of brands.

Yes - I’ve actually seen that episode. I’ve also enjoyed being on a couple of Nordhavn’s, as well as have poked around Nordhavn’s of various sizes at boat shows. While I’ve likewise held them in high esteem as seaworthy - (I call them the “Brick Sh!t-house” of boats…), They’re definitely not perfect, as I’ve noted other issues, but pretty good overall. I guess it’s something I subconsciously look for. I do get what you’re saying.. but I stand by my assessment as a (now former) Mainship owner - that I don’t think there was any communication between design/engineering/and potential end users at that now defunct company! It definitely felt like there was a complete “who cares” shrugging of shoulders when it came to maintenance and future component access. I’d be hard pressed to own another, and definitely would not own another with twin engines. Having spent a bit of time on a buddy’s 44’ Carver, and neighbors 38’ Mediterranean… I think it may be more emblematic of the crank-them-out production lines that these boats were built by.

That’s one of the great things to see in a company such as this where you get the impression that not only do they care about their products… but they actually listen and respond to the customer.

 

[Helmsman]

Well, seems to me there are three possible options (apparently for both of us).

1) Go boating alone.

2) Pay the price to go faster.

3) Find a new Admiral who likes going slow.

#1 isn’t as much fun, though I foresee that some of the time in my future. Between #2 and #3, I think no matter how expensive fuel becomes, it’s still much cheaper than divorce.

 

[Delta Riverat]

You 2 guys have some cool boats coming! I like the concept of getting exactly what you are planning to use it for.

Who knows, maybe we'll be able to someday also. Spend a few years with what we've got to see what we like to do and if the market does well and we are able...

All the best on your new boats!

 

[Nick14]

You 2 guys have some cool boats coming! I like the concept of getting exactly what you are planning to use it for.

Who knows, maybe we'll be able to someday also. Spend a few years with what we've got to see what we like to do and if the market does well and we are able...

All the best on your new boats!

Thank you very much!

It is very exciting and fun! I feel like a little kid waiting for a new toy (which is essentially what it is, just a very expensive toy).

It's fantastic that Helmsman is willing to accommodate a wide range of requests and include a tremendous amount of customization in a build, especially at the price. Though, any boat is a compromise. Unless you're Jeff Bezos and spending mega-yacht money, you never get exactly what you want.

These are the buyers who get exactly what they want, and more:

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/07/25/the-haves-and-the-have-yachts

 

[Nick14]

Below are some updated drawings shared with me by Helmsman on the new 38 Sedan. The company website hasn't been updated yet and still shows the previous 37 Sedan; these images are posted with permission.

As I previously wrote about, the 38 Sedan is a 2'3" (hull and main cabin) stretch of the prior 37 Sedan. My boat is hull #1, currently in construction (I understand a second one has also been sold). The longer main cabin allows for more flexibility and options in interior layout, including the custom layout shown below that I requested and Helmsman accommodated. Our layout also incorporates a single stateroom and split head forward; the last drawing is from the prior 37 Sedan and I don't believe is changed significantly in the 38 Sedan.

I don't know for a fact, but I believe a different interior layout may be offered as standard, perhaps more similar to what was done in the 37 Sedan with the galley to starboard aft (where we have a straight settee), and a small L-shaped seat port forward (where we have the galley). A layout with a second stateroom was offered on the 37 Sedan and I suspect may be as well on the 38 Sedan. Helmsman was more than gracious, patient, and flexible in accommodating my requests for this interior layout.

I've always been a big fan of this kind of deck plan, along the lines of the old Grand Banks Europa line. Having full walk-around, easily navigable (and covered) decks, with a single level from helm to cockpit, has become an absolute must-have for me. Especially as I age and become less limber. I've found that the times I most need to quickly get to a point on the boat, to handle a line or fend off from hitting something expensive or unforgivably hard, inevitably comes during turbulent sea or wind conditions as the boat is being tossed around. At times like that, here's nothing like the security of true bulwarks and hull around you to keep me from taking an unplanned swim.

The trade-off compared to a 'wide body' design like the popular 38E is less interior cabin space. The stretch of the new boat more than does it for me and gives me both, plenty of interior space for the admiral and myself, and the easy, safe deck access I want. A nice bonus is the enormous, single-level flybridge deck with plenty of space both for a dinghy and also plenty of room to stretch out with additional seating. Another big plus for me is the nice sized covered aft cockpit. I love being able to walk out on a single level from the salon, with room for several chairs, and the protection of a hardtop to enjoy the views with protection from both sun and rain. No better place to have a morning dose of caffeine, or evening glass of wine.

 

[CharlieO.]

That’s a nice looking vessel!

 

[Phyrcooler]

Thanks for the update and the drawings. Definitely looks nice, and is an interesting option to the 38E. The main cabin on the 38E is so voluminous that it seems like a bigger boat. However, as you noted, “stretching” the 37 helps to compensate. Covered side decks, vs doors on both sides of the pilot house. Single stateroom vs. potential for two. True pilothouse vs. sedan helm. You’d almost need to get aboard both models side by side to make a decision!

One initial question I see (for me) is the lower helm. It looks roomy… but not quite two person roomy? I’d definitely want my wife able to sit next to me. While I almost exclusively helmed from the flybridge on my previous boat, weather had a lot to do with that. However, being able to helm from below, especially in cold weather will be a bit more important on my next boat.

Again - love what your doing. Appreciate your sharing.

 

[Two Truths]

Here are my two cents for those thinking about pilot-house versus sedan layouts (whether Helmsman or not). Coming from sailboats, I used to think that walk-around side decks would be a high priority for me—on a sailboat, where you are helming from the rear cockpit, you have to be able to move forward quickly, especially when docking short- or single handed. But full side decks became lower priority for me after a couple of charters in trawlers that didn’t have them; I thought the trade off for a much larger salon was worth it, especially when living on the boat for weeks or months at a time.


What DID become high priority for me was port and starboard access from the helm station—I now consider that much more important than walk-around side decks.
I assume that those who consider side decks important are thinking mostly of docking, locking, and other close-quarter work. When docking or locking on port, I find it really helpful to be able to take a couple of steps to the port door, stick my head out to gauge precisely how things are going, and return to the helm, or quickly jump down to help with lines if necessary. Giving up the port-side door at the helm to acquire a walk-around side deck doesn’t seem worth it to me, especially if the issue is docking, and even more so if you want the option of docking single-handed.
One other thing I would be reluctant to give up is steps (rather than a ladder) to the flybridge, but that is a personal choice.

 

[Phyrcooler]

Here are my two cents for those thinking about pilot-house versus sedan layouts (whether Helmsman or not). Coming from sailboats, I used to think that walk-around side decks would be a high priority for me—on a sailboat, where you are helming from the rear cockpit, you have to be able to move forward quickly, especially when docking short- or single handed. But full side decks became lower priority for me after a couple of charters in trawlers that didn’t have them; I thought the trade off for a much larger salon was worth it, especially when living on the boat for weeks or months at a time.


What DID become high priority for me was port and starboard access from the helm station—I now consider that much more important than walk-around side decks.
I assume that those who consider side decks important are thinking mostly of docking, locking, and other close-quarter work. When docking or locking on port, I find it really helpful to be able to take a couple of steps to the port door, stick my head out to gauge precisely how things are going, and return to the helm, or quickly jump down to help with lines if necessary. Giving up the port-side door at the helm to acquire a walk-around side deck doesn’t seem worth it to me, especially if the issue is docking, and even more so if you want the option of docking single-handed.
One other thing I would be reluctant to give up is steps (rather than a ladder) to the flybridge, but that is a personal choice.

I agree 100% with your comments. While I had walkable side decks on my last boat, I found it wasn’t that important to me. Any docking maneuver if I wasn’t solo, the second person was always positioned in the cockpit with a line. But that’s my experience, with that particular boat. Likewise, my boat had steps to flybridge, and always preferred that to ladders - especially when carrying meals or even drinks “upstairs” to enjoy the view. I’m a big fan of the 38E, but I realize that everyone has their likes and needs. In addition to being available with 2 staterooms, the new 37/38x seems to have a larger cockpit, which may interest some folks. Helmsman appears to make a quality product, and everyone speaks highly of the cooperation and support they get. That means a lot. We’ve currently gone back to the sailing side… but I am always looking ahead.

 

[FWT]

Looks terrific.

A rebirth of sorts of the Mainships that were so popular? (I’m no expert on those )

 

[Helmsman]

I like the layout. And the comfort you will have of the walk around is certainly a consideration, and one that is a personal preference for each couple making the decision. I like the lines of the “stretch” version. It adds to the boat shape, I think. Will be great to get a look at some pictures as you go through the build.

 

[Nick14]

That’s a nice looking vessel!

Thank you!

One initial question I see (for me) is the lower helm.

Thanks! I don’t know the exact dimensions as is being built, but from the drawings the helm seat measures 34” wide. Whether or not you consider that a ‘double’ seat or not I suppose depends on the size of the occupants, and how friendly they are with each other.

When we’ve had flybridge boats, we found (to our surprise) that we ran from the bridge almost exclusively. The only time we’d retreat below to run the boat was when we got caught out in foul weather. At times like that, as much as I love my wife, I didn’t want anyone sitting next to me to distract me in what invariably were nasty conditions. I would have liked a matching companion seat to port, which was an option (see below) but meant other compromises.

Looks terrific.

Thanks! I think it’s more like a rebirth of the Grand Banks Europa.

I like the layout. And the comfort you will have of the walk around is certainly a consideration, and one that is a personal preference for each couple making the decision.

Thanks!

What DID become high priority for me was port and starboard access from the helm station

When I was discussing alternate interior layouts with Helmsman, one option was for a mirrored companion seat to port (instead of a L-shaped settee), which provided for a port side egress door, as in the rendering below (my own study drawing, playing around with various layouts). That meant one large settee to port aft, and no opposing settee to starboard. That layout was a close second choice for me.

We all use boats differently, with unique preferences and needs. None are ‘right’ or ‘wrong.’ I’ve had boats with port & starboard doors but without walk-around side decks, and a boat with just a starboard door but walk-around decks. I found the former uncomfortable, and latter much to my preference. On the boat with dual doors but essentially no side decks, I found myself doing dicey trapeze acts trying to reach something, one arm hanging on to a roof railing. I might have gotten away with that >20 years ago, but at this age it would be a recipe for disaster.

It seemed in New England waters, with fast currents and winds in many places, close quarters docking and maneuvering is often a tense and rapidly changing situation (at least for me). It became a must-have for me to be able to easily, safely access any point of the boat to hang a fender, tie a line, or fend off from impending collision.

I learned a hard lesson about side decks. One boat we owned had dual egress doors and easy access forward, but the side decks were only about 5” wide – about the width of my shoe. ‘Walking’ them meant one foot sliding in front of the other. One time in a fast-moving docking situation, getting blown around by the wind, I was trying to run to push off from and fix a line to a piling that the boat was rapidly accelerating towards. I caught my foot in a rail mount, and dislocated my knee and destroyed the meniscus. Despite surgery at one of the best orthopedic medical centers in the country, it’s never been the same. Painful lesson learned.

For our boating, it’s always just the Admiral and myself. We’ve never had anyone stay aboard overnight, and never will. Guests for us occasionally come aboard for drinks, but that’s it. Otherwise it’s just the two of us. We like an opposing settee layout both so we can each have one to sprawl out on with a book and drink, and for roomy socializing with visitors.

One of the great things about working with Helmsman was their willingness to be flexible and accommodate customizations. Some even purely ‘custom’ builders are reluctant to do that, and stick to pre-designed options.

All boats are a compromise (unless you have Jeff Bezos money), and 38 ft isn’t all that big. I suppose a Sedan version of the Helmsman 43 could ‘have it all’, and we seriously thought about that too. In hindsight maybe I should have gone for it, but I was trying to keep to a budget that wouldn’t cause marital strife, as well as a size I’d be comfortable single-handing (the Admiral is more of an observer). At my age and physical condition (and I’m not getting any younger), 38 ft is pushing the limits of what I think my body can reliably handle on my own (I hope!).

 

[Helmsman]

At my age and physical condition (and I’m not getting any younger), 38 ft is pushing the limits of what I think my body can reliably handle on my own (I hope!).

I agree with this, and your above comment about side deck width. Having had the opportunity to be on our 38 (on the hard), the access to the FB and the bow will both be ease of use. I was impressed with the heavy feel of the rail to the bow, the height of the rails, and the width.

I was always super concerned about our Carver, which had very skinny side walk ways, with a low rail. It would be fairly easy to fall in, or worse, catch your leg between the side of the boat and the rail and snap it. One of the reasons we sold the Carver.

I like your choices. They make a lot of sense to me. It is nice to have a builder that is open to change things up.