Below is a photo of the salon with the window open (previously requested) and a nice picture of the PH from the bow when we were out yesterday. The past month has included a number of low pressure systems which have kicked up the ocean a little more than usual. Yesterday was one of those "normal" days with limited wind waves (1') and swell (2' a 14 seconds) along with a blue sky and full sun. We left late (around noon) and thought about continuing up and around Point Loma to Mission Bay but would be rushed to return before sunset. Instead we headed further out to look for gray whales and played around with the Auto Pilot and Plotter as we continue to familiarize ourselves with all their features.
The more we use the boat the more I appreciate its ease of handling and docking. She is very responsive and I'm enjoying being able to dock with minimal use of bow thruster. Another nice feature of the H38E are the large PH windows. Coming from the Nordhavn line of boats which use much smaller windows for ocean crossing, having three large windows really helps to open up the world when cruising. We are spoiled with the H38E PH large layout and close to 360 degree visibility. The bulkhead cut out behind the helm station is a very nice touch providing excellent visibility aft especially when backing down.
We now have about 37 hours on the Cummins 380hp engine and recently completed the first transmission oil change. The reverse cycle A/C Heaters are working well except for one unit in the salon which appears to have the sensor issue and is reading a higher than actual temperature. I need to confirm where the sensor was located and see if we should relocate it. We find that on a very cold night (below 50 degrees) we use a combination of the reverse cycle unit and a portable electric heater from West Marine to keep the OSR nice and warm without over working either system. The salon with its larger area and windows takes a little longer to warm up but does reach the desired temperature. So far we are very pleased with our "simpler boat" and its ability to meet our needs. Not having to deal with a second engine, generator, stabilizers or trim tabs has been a nice change.
She's looking good John. Are you going to have a Bimini top or just the fitted bridge cover? By the way, we found that standard anchor as supplied was perfectly fine. Once we started cruising the ICW where you can get some strong and reversing currents, we upgraded to a larger Manson Supreme. It gives us a bit more confidence when the current switches directions in the middle of the night.
Right now I am in Isle of Palms SC delivering a 56' Seaton to Stuart FL. While here am visiting with friends who have lived aboard their H38 for 3 years. They love the boat and ike Cristina and I, have not developed 2 footitis. Heck they own a house in townhere they rented out becasue they prefer to live on the boat.
She's looking good John. Are you going to have a Bimini top or just the fitted bridge cover? By the way, we found that standard anchor as supplied was perfectly fine. Once we started cruising the ICW where you can get some strong and reversing currents, we upgraded to a larger Manson Supreme. It gives us a bit more confidence when the current switches directions in the middle of the night.
Right now I am in Isle of Palms SC delivering a 56' Seaton to Stuart FL. While here am visiting with friends who have lived aboard their H38 for 3 years. They love the boat and ike Cristina and I, have not developed 2 footitis. Heck they own a house in townhere they rented out becasue they prefer to live on the boat.
Bimini Top is actually completed and turned out nice. Since we wanted to be able to stow it forward of the console and between the console and windshield we were limited in size. The guy who helped me design it did a great job and it fits like a glove when stowed. In fact you cannot even see it with the console cover unless you look carefully for the brackets mounted on both sides of the FP console. Last week I had eight people from work over to see the boat including one who had been on our N40's and N35. His first comment upon entering the salon was "this boat is much bigger than your N-40". Granted the aft deck, salon / galley, PH and FB are much larger but they are different boats for different missions. All this adds up (like you) to not being interested in another 2 feet at this time. Open concept or one level designs offer a lot in a boat.
In case anyone in the southwest was thinking about boat shows this winter we have decided to enter our new Helmsman 38E (hull No 1) during the San Diego Boat Show in late January. We will be aboard to the entire show and look forward to meeting with anyone from TF and showing off this great boat.
It’s been three months since we took delivery and completed the commissioning process so we both were excited this past weekend when we finally had a weather window to do a little coastal cruising. It wasn’t anything big but it was our first time “outside” in perfect weather conditions (calm seas and 70 degrees on the water). We pulled out of the marina at 0925hrs (one of the pleasures owning a boat a little faster than FD hull speeds – you don’t have to leave at 0600hrs) and headed out the inlet until we were a few miles off the coast and clear of the kelp beds before turning north towards Mission Bay. After dodging a few lobster pots we set the AP and relaxed as we began to remember what it felt like to be on the water on a perfect day. We could see the whale watching boats who passed us up earlier in the inlet and now cruising along slowly further out off our port side. The ocean was dead calm with our boat causing the only waves as we cruised along at 7.5knots – yes this is heaven.
After about 2.5 hours we were anchored in Mariners Cover near the entrance to Mission Bay, San Diego. We made a few sandwiches and headed back up to the PH where we watched one of the playoff games while we ate. Afterwards we went up top and set up two chairs to enjoy the sun. We must have stayed there an hour before it was time to pull anchor and head back home. Anchor retrieval went fine with Mary at the helm as I worked the windless.
Once we were about 2 miles off the coast we turned to a south / eastern course and set the AP. I conducted my hourly engine room checks (love that ER door) and recorded all information as part of our record keeping and understanding the “normal ranges”. Soon after turning we both noticed a change in the vibration of the boat. I slowed to a stop and placed the boat in reverse in case we had some kelp on the propeller. While we didn’t notice a significant change the vibration did disappear about 30 minutes later. Still not sure if we had kelp or possibly it was just the angle the small waves were hitting or the RPM. Halfway home we were joined by a large pod of porpoises allowing Mary to take some great videos. No whale sittings this trip but we know they are out there heading south. The only real seas we encountered were around Point Loma (3’ swells at 8 seconds on the beam) and inside the bay (boat traffic). Today was a good day and one we will both remember for a while.
A few observations about the boat:
1. Building a simpler boat worked. As many people know we wanted a simpler boat for the next few years and so far we believe we achieved our goal balancing simplicity with comfort / safety. We have one engine, no wing engine, no trim tabs, no stabilizers or generator. During this trip we didn’t require or miss any of the above. Cost savings about $125K. Our extra-large battery bank allows us to use electrical power without worrying about battery capacity. Our desired speed doesn’t require Trim Tabs and choosing our weather window doesn’t require stabilization. Belonging to Vessel Assist and being near the coast line provide us the “get home” tow if we ever require one.
2. Fuel Burn – I have been recording fuel burn since we took delivery and now have about 50 hours on the engine. I’m convinced that staying under 1400RPM is our sweat spot for efficiency and comfort. We average speeds around 7.5 knots (we are flying) and burn under 2 GPH. Again we achieved our goal finding a boat that will provide us 20% increased speed over the Nordhavn’s without burning more fuel. It’s amazing the penalty one pays to go 0.5 knots faster. OK, I’ll admit that coming home we pushed the throttles to 1575RPM to get that extra 0.5 knots to beat the sunset but that’s why we went with the 380HP Cummins.
3. Comfort at dock– after three months that has seen a temperature range from 100 degrees on the water (likely first time in 50 years) to 40 degrees at night, I can honestly report we did right by adding the two reverse cycle AC / Heaters. Add in the little West Marine portable heaters and life is good.
4. Comfort at sea – selecting a boat without stabilizers (after you have owned boats with them) is not an easy decision. I know there will days when I will ask myself if I made the right decision but so far I believe we did. The approach we need to keep is to select our weather and goes back to keeping things simple. As mentioned earlier we already had two failed attempts trying up head up the coast due to weather which we would likely have made if we had stabilizers and the slightly heavier N40 but then again we don’t like get beat up on the water just to go somewhere. It’s not that H38E couldn’t handle what we found outside it was more that I didn’t want to put us through it and ruin the fun being aboard. Stabilizers aside I can say that even in the rougher beam seas the boat is comfortable and safe. She feels just like a FD hull except with a cleaner / softer entry and a little less initial roll. When she does roll it is soft and stable. This is a great wide hull design and one of the reasons we selected it. The boats 30K pounds doesn't hurt either when the seas pick up. I learned a long time ago the heavier the boat the better the ride when things get bad as sea.
5. Ease of transiting – another aspect of the boat we both appreciate is the ease of getting around the boat. Our redesigned galley / salon is perfect and we appreciate the minimum number of steps inside the boat. On the exterior we like the deeper / wider side deck steps leading forward or aft. The height, location and strength of the railings outside the boat are perfect. The extended bow railing over the anchor is working out great proving that extra level of safety when retrieving the anchor. I also like the welded cross bar at the edge of anchor chain channel that prevents the anchor from flying upwards towards the end of retrieval. I cannot believe our previous trawlers didn’t have this simple enhancement.
6. ER Access – I know I have mentioned this more than once but engine room access is a priority on our boats and finding a boat with a true ER door was a “must have” on our list. After this simple coastal trip I can reconfirm we made the right decision. While the new Cummins electronic display provides just about everything we need to monitor it doesn’t replace the visual and sound inspection of being in the ER underway. Being able to access the ER without having to pull up the carpets and opening the large hatch next to the person trying to navigate only makes sense from both a convenience and safety aspect. While this was short trip I did visit the ER twice on each leg to make my inspections including when we felt some vibration. The lighting below is excellent as is access around the engine (port side is tight but I can get a good line of sight on everything).
7. Visibility – another aspect of the boat layout which I have come to appreciate is the almost 360 degree visibility from the PH. Backing down is much easier than our previous boats due in part to that clear line of sight aft and large salon windows. Even though Mary is positioned aft while I’m backing down I feel comfortable doing it solo if I had to. We both appreciate the large PH and number of windows regardless if we are tied up at the dock or underway, visibility is just great. While we have not yet steered from the flybridge we have spent enough time there to realize it will be a pleasure.
8. Electronics – I know we talked about selecting a different brand (we have used Furuno on the last three boats) but in the end we stayed with Furuno. I cannot report how happy we are with the system including the AP and all new touch screen display. The display is very user friendly and fast, I would recommend it to anyone looking for a top of the line system. Even the VHF radios are like a computer with GPS, AIS and many other features which we likely never use.
It was a good day and great little trip that helped us reconfirm we made the right decision with the Helmsman 38E. We find ourselves discussing different aspects of the boat we like, how this boat is perfect for “us” and the trips we look forward to doing with her over the next ten years. God willing this year will be spending a lot of time aboard both during the week (for work in SD) and weekends making coastal trips (each a little further). We also plan one trip to Ensenada, Mexico for a long weekend after Sailor Blue is a little older. We are still talking about making the “Baha ha ha”run next November but time will tell. I’m not crazy about having to bring the boat back home (baha bash) and putting that stress on her. In a few years we plan to truck her east and travel the ICW for a few years. Time will tell…………….
This sounds wonderful. Looking forward to seeing you here on the ICW. The ICW trip is in the future, but if you do not have a dinghy, you will want one for cruising the East Coast. time to start thinking how you will store/deploy it.
Great post, John. It's a great feeling when your 'perfect-for-you' boat feels dialed in for your likes and preferences. Kudos on putting together a boat that is so well 'thought out', planned and built. Of course, Scott and crew gets some of that credit, too.
Cheers to you all!
__________________ My boat is my ark. It's my mobile treehouse and my floating fishing cabin. It's my retreat and my respite. Everyday I thank God I have a boat! -Al FJB
My last post received a few comments regarding fuel burn and I want to clarify in case anyone is looking hard at our numbers. Based upon four different trips including the last one along the coast we average the following in the 1300 RPM range:
Understanding tides can impact speed it would appear an average speed of 7.5knots is achievable with a fuel burn under 2GPH if we believe the GPS speed readings. I discussed this with Scott and agreed it would be interesting for us to make few 1/4 mile runs (back and forth) to rule out tides and develop an average at different speeds. Will keep everyone posted.
The interesting aspect of our recordings is the boat / hull appears to be behaving slightly more efficient than a FD hull while at FD speeds and provides excellent MPG / Speed. We need to realize speed readings are off the Furuno GPS and fuel burn from the Cummins engine computer display. Is there variation with either system? I don't have any reason to think so.
Since the speed / RPM / Fuel Burn appears better than our N40 (FD hull) I can only conclude the Helmsman 38E hull design with its sharper entry and transition to a more FD hull and flatter aft section is a little more efficient at slower speeds. This shouldn't be the case sine the more we deviate from a true monohul (sailboat) the less efficient the hull should be. Even our previous N40's had a relatively flat stern (like the H38E) with soft shines. The only other difference I can see (so far) in hull design is the H38E provides a much cleaner entry that cuts the water where the N40 has a wider bow entry and pushes the water aside. Is the difference in the bow entry design and transition to mid section enough to cause a difference in speed / GPH? What is the difference on fuel burn between the larger Cummins 380hp and Lugger 120HP at FD speeds? One could conclude the Lugger is working harder (1600RPM) than the Cummins (1300RPM) to reach FD hull speed thus it must burn more fuel.
I'm no expert on hull design but enjoying this research as we attempt to understand our true range in case we make the run to Cabo. Weather permitting we plan to make a few 180 degree trials on the bay at different RPM's and record the data. We will report our findings and welcome input from others.
What would be really interesting would be to plot fuel rate and speed across the boat's operating range. Plots at 100 rpm increments would be ideal, but 200 rpm increments would be good too. From that you can calculate nmpg at each point. You see this in magazine test reports all the time. The data needs to be collected in calm, current-free conditions. Many people do to opposing runs and average the results to cancel out environmental factors.
The only meaningful comparison of efficiency between boats is to look at nmpg at the same speed, where the "same speed" means within 1/4 knot.
The interesting aspect of our recordings is the boat / hull appears to be behaving slightly more efficient than a FD hull while at FD speeds and provides excellent MPG / Speed. We need to realize speed readings are off the Furuno GPS and fuel burn from the Cummins engine computer display. Is there variation with either system? I don't have any reason to think so.
Since the speed / RPM / Fuel Burn appears better than our N40 (FD hull) I can only conclude the Helmsman 38E hull design with its sharper entry and transition to a more FD hull and flatter aft section is a little more efficient at slower speeds. This shouldn't be the case sine the more we deviate from a true monohul (sailboat) the less efficient the hull should be. Even our previous N40's had a relatively flat stern (like the H38E) with soft shines. The only other difference I can see (so far) in hull design is the H38E provides a much cleaner entry that cuts the water where the N40 has a wider bow entry and pushes the water aside. Is the difference in the bow entry design and transition to mid section enough to cause a difference in speed / GPH? What is the difference on fuel burn between the larger Cummins 380hp and Lugger 120HP at FD speeds? One could conclude the Lugger is working harder (1600RPM) than the Cummins (1300RPM) to reach FD hull speed thus it must burn more fuel.
I'm no expert on hull design but enjoying this research as we attempt to understand our true range in case we make the run to Cabo. Weather permitting we plan to make a few 180 degree trials on the bay at different RPM's and record the data. We will report our findings and welcome input from others.
John
Doesn't the Nordhavn weigh ~20,000 lbs more than the Helmsman? That's probably where the fuel savings is.
What would be really interesting would be to plot fuel rate and speed across the boat's operating range. Plots at 100 rpm increments would be ideal, but 200 rpm increments would be good too. From that you can calculate nmpg at each point. You see this in magazine test reports all the time. The data needs to be collected in calm, current-free conditions. Many people do to opposing runs and average the results to cancel out environmental factors.
The only meaningful comparison of efficiency between boats is to look at nmpg at the same speed, where the "same speed" means within 1/4 knot.
They all measure fuel flow either by the onboard system or flowscan as do we. That way you really have sound numbers at all rpm and speeds. Here's an example from a Nordhavn 50 with a 250 hp Lugger, 1/2 fuel, full water, 4 people, minimum gear from Boattest.
One thing we find interesting is to note that at 10 knots we have the same usage in nmpg as the Nordhavn at 8.7 knots. Now, in the real world, we only run that slow in a speed zone and the Nordhavn likely never runs that fast.
Ours are all based on multiple runs so averages over a range of conditions and loads. We do have the raw data for the various conditions and loads.
As an aside the Sunseeker weighs around 22,000 pounds more than the Nordhavn.
My last post received a few comments regarding fuel burn and I want to clarify in case anyone is looking hard at our numbers. Based upon four different trips including the last one along the coast we average the following in the 1300 RPM range:
Understanding tides can impact speed it would appear an average speed of 7.5knots is achievable with a fuel burn under 2GPH if we believe the GPS speed readings. I discussed this with Scott and agreed it would be interesting for us to make few 1/4 mile runs (back and forth) to rule out tides and develop an average at different speeds. Will keep everyone posted.
I am impressed with those numbers. I believe you and I have the same engine, Cummins 5.9l 380 hp? In Flat water, no wind, 1400 rpm gives me about 7 knots at 2.2gph. My boat is bigger and likely heavier, but I have got about 5 feet of waterline on you. So I think that Helmsman has done well with the efficiency of their 38.
Doesn't the Nordhavn weigh ~20,000 lbs more than the Helmsman? That's probably where the fuel savings is.
Based on the 2003 Circumnavigation Magazine by PAE which was dedicated mostly to the N40 the projected weight at full load is 50k. Assume 50% load and we are closer to 42k compared to 32k for the H38. A bigger impact on the N40 fuel burn is likely the stabilizer fins and wing engine propeller. Interesting point is that we never reached the average speeds posted in the article on either of our two N40's. Page 75 says that at long range speed of 1,400rpm the N40 runs a little over 6 knots burning about 1. 9gph.
So it appears we have a efficient hull on the H38 which achieves over 20% greater speed at comparable RPM / Fuel Burn which was our goal. More testing to follow soon.
In case anyone in the southwest was thinking about boat shows this winter we have decided to enter our new Helmsman 38E (hull No 1) during the San Diego Boat Show in late January. We will be aboard to the entire show and look forward to meeting with anyone from TF and showing off this great boat.
John T.
Congrats on your new boat. I have been following your thread the past few months and she sounds like she is working out well for you.. If I can make it to the show, I will stop by and say hello. The last time I went to that particular show, it was "strictly to look" and we ended with a new boat.
Here is a chart of the fuel burn in our Mariner 37, now a Helmsman 38. We have the Cummins QSB 5.9 230 HP. This data was collected over two seasons. The fuel burn is from the Cummins Vessel View, the speed is speed through the water NOT SOG. It therefore eliminates any current effect on the MPG, which is nautical miles and not statute miles. Our propeller is a 5 blade 24x16.75.
Here is a chart of the fuel burn in our Mariner 37, now a Helmsman 38. We have the Cummins QSB 5.9 230 HP. This data was collected over two seasons. The fuel burn is from the Cummins Vessel View, the speed is speed through the water NOT SOG. It therefore eliminates any current effect on the MPG, which is nautical miles and not statute miles. Our propeller is a 5 blade 24x16.75.
So last weekend we drove to SD with plans to make a few fuel usage runs in a more controlled environment. Unfortunately mother nature had different plans and things didn't turn out as planned. While we did take the boat out we did so in a stiff 15-20 knot breeze. The bay was a little rough with 1-2' wide chop and 3' waves from a lot of commercial traffic. We took a lot of spray but it made us appreciate having a boat with a large PH. After an hour we decided to head back in and call it an afternoon. Docking was going to be fun with the wind on our stern quarter. Between the wind and current I decided a slightly quicker approach with a little more bow thruster was in order. I approached the slip at a 45degree angle and glided in for a perfect docking. A neighbor was waiting to assist with our dock lines and commented how well we did under the less than perfect conditions. To be honest we got a little lucky but the H38 is an easy boat to handle. She is very responsive.
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