Another new start for Helmsman

[guy with a boat]

After reviewing and getting pinged by Musk's marketing folks, I Starlink's marine version is way too far out to make it feasible. They have a RV/Boat version now downgraded and ready to go - but no real mobile solution other than a dish that you have to store and place on a dock. The system currently shuts down if a wave hits your boat let alone swing on an anchor. So I am heading to purchase Iridium go + Predictwind.

The Starlink situation is changing at a very fast rate, almost weekly. If you are buying today and don’t want to risk some unknowns, then Iridium is likely your answer. It will also make a good backup later if you get a Starlink dish. The world of internet connectivity is changing dramatically and you may be surprised how soon Starlink is the best option for your boat.

Just one minor correction; the Starlink dish doesn’t shut down from waves or anchor swings.

 

[BandB]

I'm still amazed we don't see more wraps. I'm certainly tempted by them.

 

[Helmsman]

I'm still amazed we don't see more wraps. I'm certainly tempted by them.

Kind of a one and done approach,which would be good. Haven’t looked at wraps much.

 

[backinblue]

I'm still amazed we don't see more wraps. I'm certainly tempted by them.

I agree but probably cost-prohibitive for most.

 

[backinblue]

I studied how the application works. My estimate is that about 75% of a ceramic coating labor cost is in the prep work for the old gel coat.

Since we have new gel coat, and the application is to spray on and then wipe into the gel coat until dry (about 30 seconds) it will be like doing your own wax job, the first time. No real magic to it. Of course, a good cleaning with the recommended soap will be critical, you need to avoid sun for 12 hours, and there will be some areas that may be a little difficult to get to.

I plan to do my own, which should take a couple of days if I can work it out. We will see.

I misunderstood, I thought you were paying a pro to do the ceramic. There are all kinds of "ceramic" products out there for cars and boats. Some are fairly inexpensive and can be as easy as spray on and wipe off. In fact, I've started using them on my cars because they are quick and easy and seem to work well. However, I wouldn't expect to get multiple years in a marine environment with something like that. The better, professional products, are a multi-step process including several steps of prep and at least 2 coats of ceramic, even on a new boat. They are expected to hold up for a full year in FL or perhaps several years further north with regular cleaning. Don't forget that new gelcoat will contain some "wax" as a mold release agent. You probably want to at least do some sort of de-wax first.

From powerandmotoryacht:

It’s important to clean and de-wax the surface before buffing the gelcoat to restore shine. If you try to buff off the wax, the heat of the buffer wheel will drive it deeper into the gelcoat. Even new boats should be cleaned and de-waxed, since there’s often mold-release compound and other imperfections on the surface. “Look closely at a new boat’s gelcoat—hold the light on your phone four or five inches from the surface,” said Westhorpe. “You’ll often see water and swirl marks which will show up under the ceramic.” Even if you de-wax carefully, you can still get stung, since some buffing compounds contain wax. While there are many products that will do a good job at prepping the surface, Westhorpe said it’s safer to use the products suggested by the manufacturer because you know there’s no wax in them. And always apply two coats of ceramic; the first coat fills and seals the gelcoat, and the second coat provides the gloss.

 

[Helmsman]

I misunderstood, I thought you were paying a pro to do the ceramic. There are all kinds of "ceramic" products out there for cars and boats. Some are fairly inexpensive and can be as easy as spray on and wipe off. In fact, I've started using them on my cars because they are quick and easy and seem to work well. However, I wouldn't expect to get multiple years in a marine environment with something like that. The better, professional products, are a multi-step process including several steps of prep and at least 2 coats of ceramic, even on a new boat. They are expected to hold up for a full year in FL or perhaps several years further north with regular cleaning. Don't forget that new gelcoat will contain some "wax" as a mold release agent. You probably want to at least do some sort of de-wax first.

From powerandmotoryacht:

It’s important to clean and de-wax the surface before buffing the gelcoat to restore shine. If you try to buff off the wax, the heat of the buffer wheel will drive it deeper into the gelcoat. Even new boats should be cleaned and de-waxed, since there’s often mold-release compound and other imperfections on the surface. “Look closely at a new boat’s gelcoat—hold the light on your phone four or five inches from the surface,” said Westhorpe. “You’ll often see water and swirl marks which will show up under the ceramic.” Even if you de-wax carefully, you can still get stung, since some buffing compounds contain wax. While there are many products that will do a good job at prepping the surface, Westhorpe said it’s safer to use the products suggested by the manufacturer because you know there’s no wax in them. And always apply two coats of ceramic; the first coat fills and seals the gelcoat, and the second coat provides the gloss.

Thanks! I plan to use Permanon, and will look into de-waxing the surface. I have yet to discuss with the Permanon manufacturer exactly what goes into the application process, but do plan at least two coats. In reading about it a couple of months ago, there were specific cleaning steps needed to get the gel coat prepped. I appreciate you posting the P and M article. That clears up a question I planned to ask them. I certainly don’t want to make it seem like it is just a simple process. I am just not quite at the stage where I need to have the research completed. That will be for when the boat is shipped along with a host of other prep type activities.

And, if as things go, there are other new boat projects that take priority, I will look into someone applying the Permanon. The only issue I foresee is that I don’t plan to stop moving the boat until I get her on the Tennessee River. With the state of the marine service industry, getting someone to even call back is a crap shoot these days. So, the process will have to be defined based upon the current conditions when I receive the boat.

Thanks again for the article. That is extremely helpful.

 

[backinblue]

Thanks! I plan to use Permanon, and will look into de-waxing the surface. I have yet to discuss with the Permanon manufacturer exactly what goes into the application process, but do plan at least two coats. In reading about it a couple of months ago, there were specific cleaning steps needed to get the gel coat prepped. I appreciate you posting the P and M article. That clears up a question I planned to ask them. I certainly don’t want to make it seem like it is just a simple process. I am just not quite at the stage where I need to have the research completed. That will be for when the boat is shipped along with a host of other prep type activities.

And, if as things go, there are other new boat projects that take priority, I will look into someone applying the Permanon. The only issue I foresee is that I don’t plan to stop moving the boat until I get her on the Tennessee River. With the state of the marine service industry, getting someone to even call back is a crap shoot these days. So, the process will have to be defined based upon the current conditions when I receive the boat.

Thanks again for the article. That is extremely helpful.

Glad to help. You probably already found it, bnut here is the full article:
https://www.powerandmotoryacht.com/maintenance/review-of-nano-ceramic-coatings-for-boat-hulls

 

[Tom-Jill-Lilly]

Hi Guy with a boat - thanks for the feedback. My quick note about ""the Starlink dish shuts down from waves or anchor swings."
The latest-new offering is a stationary dish on a tripod, once it locks onto the satilitte then it cant move. The dish has to be on a dock without trees, masts etc blocking. The current design (and I see nothing offered regarding in motion) will not work with the dish on the boat at anchor or in motion. Not an insider or starlink expert, but if you know of a starlink product that can work underway, that would be great.
My best reference so far: https://www.rvmobileinternet.com/guides/starlink-rv-boat/

 

[Tom-Jill-Lilly]

Wraps - I have a neighbor who wrapped his new Parker because he could get the color he wanted in Gelcoat. I do know his caretaker said it isn't something he would do again as it showed scratches easily (docking, fenders, bumping) - grey wrap over white gelcoat. But that's the guy who has to take care of it.. And I do see you can apply it yourself and repair it (link below).

I'll send a note to the owner and ask.. but that's just one data point.

The other interesting note, the link on wraps I have (they sell wraps) states wraps vs painted, no mention vs gelcoat (if that matters). It does have references to different products if your heading that way,. https://www.rvinyl.com/Vinyl-Boat-Wraps

 

[Tom-Jill-Lilly]

Quick note on the owners response:

The wrapping of the Parker has been fine. It’s an operator thing on how it holds up. Careful around the dock it’s fine. Smash it. And it’s a different matter. All along all I would say it’s done fine but ours has. Some marks here and there for sure.

 

[Nick14]

Careful around the dock it’s fine. Smash it. And it’s a different matter. [/I]

I think you hit the nail on the head.

I have no experience with wrapping a boat, but it's frequently done with cars where it's usually less expensive than a good quality paint job.

I wonder how long a wrap would hold up on a boat? On a car wraps seem to last around 5-7 years, by which time they start to crack, fade, and peel. I would suspect on a boat, in a harsher environment than most cars face (water and being wet much of the time, salt spray, pounding by waves, whacking against docks, etc.) the lifespan could be shorter.

 

[dubgull]

The Starlink situation is changing at a very fast rate, almost weekly. If you are buying today and don’t want to risk some unknowns, then Iridium is likely your answer. It will also make a good backup later if you get a Starlink dish. The world of internet connectivity is changing dramatically and you may be surprised how soon Starlink is the best option for your boat.

Just one minor correction; the Starlink dish doesn’t shut down from waves or anchor swings.

Indeed, I've had over 200Mb/s while underway on a specific heading. Note, a change in heading may induce a dish/receptor refocus if radical enough. The dish is phased array rather than trad satellite that required focus to a specific sat so even when refocusing, we've not seen connectivity drops but instead a bandwidth slowdown. Overall, it's been a flawless internet solution for the puget sound so far. Fingers crossed it remains so.

 

[Helmsman]

Indeed, I've had over 200Mb/s while underway on a specific heading. Note, a change in heading may induce a dish/receptor refocus if radical enough. The dish is phased array rather than trad satellite that required focus to a specific sat so even when refocusing, we've not seen connectivity drops but instead a bandwidth slowdown. Overall, it's been a flawless internet solution for the puget sound so far. Fingers crossed it remains so.

Thank you! That is good to hear. To be able to get the family out while the kids are working would be big for my wife and I. It would vastly expand travel for us.

 

[backinblue]

I work from my boat all the time, but I get by with a mobile hotspot. Wouldn't work for everyone or all locations but for my needs it's fine.

 

[rslifkin]

I work from my boat all the time, but I get by with a mobile hotspot. Wouldn't work for everyone or all locations but for my needs it's fine.

We get by fine with a combo of cellar and marina wifi as well. But once it all develops a bit further I'd definitely consider Starlink. Mostly for the unlimited data, but also partly as another option in places where either cell service is poor or we're roaming into Canada (which has even lower data caps on the plan we have for the boat).

 

[Tom-Jill-Lilly]

Hi, back on Ceramic. I am leaning to proceed with the planning.
Bottom line - A new boat, best for ceramic. Young boat, wax and wash, older boat consider wrap.
Since Ceramic is very labor, skill and material dependent I am going to get training on maintaining, not initial installation.

I've been provided two quotes at $9-10k for the 38. That is actually cheaper than professional buff, wax, and wash 2x per year over 5+ years.

The next concern is finding a covered location dry dock. Setting this up is like painting a vehicle.

I tried to upload my notes.

I'm expecting the coating to last 5+ years. But probably no longer than 10. At some point years off it'll need sanded and recoating.

 

[Helmsman]

Hi, back on Ceramic. I am leaning to proceed with the planning.
Bottom line - A new boat, best for ceramic. Young boat, wax and wash, older boat consider wrap.
Since Ceramic is very labor, skill and material dependent I am going to get training on maintaining, not initial installation.

I've been provided two quotes at $9-10k for the 38. That is actually cheaper than professional buff, wax, and wash 2x per year over 5+ years.

The next concern is finding a covered location dry dock. Setting this up is like painting a vehicle.

I tried to upload my notes.

I'm expecting the coating to last 5+ years. But probably no longer than 10. At some point years off it'll need sanded and recoating.

Tom, the application of either Rejex or Permanon is relatively easy. I have not tried to get a quote. I will make sure to let you know how difficult it is to apply, and if I run into any land mines. I did speak with the Permanon folks and they told me if I applied while sunny to make sure and completely dry the boat after washing. With a new boat, the suggestion was to wash with Dawn dish detergent. The exact type of Dawn is listed in the above post.

Read through this forum post.

https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s32/rejex-vs-permanon-59365.html

I also spoke with a person who had it applied on the river in Kentucky last fall. He is in Florida now and said it still looks great.

 

[Nancy n Larry]

Hi, back on Ceramic. I am leaning to proceed with the planning.
Bottom line - A new boat, best for ceramic. Young boat, wax and wash, older boat consider wrap.
Since Ceramic is very labor, skill and material dependent I am going to get training on maintaining, not initial installation.

I've been provided two quotes at $9-10k for the 38. That is actually cheaper than professional buff, wax, and wash 2x per year over 5+ years.

The next concern is finding a covered location dry dock. Setting this up is like painting a vehicle.

I tried to upload my notes.

I'm expecting the coating to last 5+ years. But probably no longer than 10. At some point years off it'll need sanded and recoating.

I just got a quote for ceramic for my Helmsman 38 that is coming in the fall. I was Quoted $4600 by Swift Spirit and $9500 by Premier. Quite a price difference. Swift spirit has come with some great recommendations so I’m inclined to go with them. I guess my point is, it pays to compare products and prices.

 

[Helmsman]

I just got a quote for ceramic for my Helmsman 38 that is coming in the fall. I was Quoted $4600 by Swift Spirit and $9500 by Premier. Quite a price difference. Swift spirit has come with some great recommendations so I’m inclined to go with them. I guess my point is, it pays to compare products and prices.

That is good to know. Can you share the recommendations? No rush, but would like to hear.

 

[Tom-Jill-Lilly]

Larry and Helmsman, thanks for the response.
I'm pretty convinced it's a ton of work. And a skillset. I don't think I want to learn on the Helmsman, but maybe my dingy ��

Larry, I don't know anything about Swift Spirit - but at 9-10k so far – I think you get what you pay for – see below. I heard of quotes for 3-4k to do the hull only.

As for the $9-10k it pans-out man hours plus materials - we are at 3-4 guys over 4 days + haul out. This covers the Prep work, which is the biggest work, (Hull blemishes, mold release, etc), and then finishing the hull, top, windows, and vinyl. For an additional <$1k they can clearcoat (aka invisible bra) the hull or the section where your fenders go. At 9k that makes sense.

I think since this is one of the most important investments don't the boat. I would suggest you, Rick and I compare quotes and notes.

My biggest concern isn't pricing, it's more on the type of materials, and applications and we need a covered dry dock or similar. Example: Premier being two layers, and Nano being four layers. Putting four layers of anything will or should cost more etc, but interesting enough, its about the same cost..

I would not ask for a volume discount from any of these shops since there isn't anything volume or hugely efficient if we all went with one, but the leverage we might have is understanding what they do.

One other interesting note , for what it’s worth - I had the Nanoflow services go into Waterline and give their pitch to Scott this past week. Scott was impressed by the owner, in terms of knowledge and depth of work in terms of cost. Scott indicated that at $10k it sounds about right for the work that goes into it. Scott also said while he indicated for a new boat is the right choice, he would continue to buff and wax. Similar to what I said. My point here is, I don’t think $10k is too far off, so I worry about the cost being half even if I want to pay only half. Love your quote, just wonder why the big difference.

If I was back in the states, I’d go to the shops myself and get a better understanding of the labor and materials involved.

Tom

 

[Nancy n Larry]

Larry and Helmsman, thanks for the response.
I'm pretty convinced it's a ton of work. And a skillset. I don't think I want to learn on the Helmsman, but maybe my dingy ��

Larry, I don't know anything about Swift Spirit - but at 9-10k so far – I think you get what you pay for – see below. I heard of quotes for 3-4k to do the hull only.

As for the $9-10k it pans-out man hours plus materials - we are at 3-4 guys over 4 days + haul out. This covers the Prep work, which is the biggest work, (Hull blemishes, mold release, etc), and then finishing the hull, top, windows, and vinyl. For an additional <$1k they can clearcoat (aka invisible bra) the hull or the section where your fenders go. At 9k that makes sense.

I think since this is one of the most important investments don't the boat. I would suggest you, Rick and I compare quotes and notes.

My biggest concern isn't pricing, it's more on the type of materials, and applications and we need a covered dry dock or similar. Example: Premier being two layers, and Nano being four layers. Putting four layers of anything will or should cost more etc, but interesting enough, its about the same cost..

I would not ask for a volume discount from any of these shops since there isn't anything volume or hugely efficient if we all went with one, but the leverage we might have is understanding what they do.

One other interesting note , for what it’s worth - I had the Nanoflow services go into Waterline and give their pitch to Scott this past week. Scott was impressed by the owner, in terms of knowledge and depth of work in terms of cost. Scott indicated that at $10k it sounds about right for the work that goes into it. Scott also said while he indicated for a new boat is the right choice, he would continue to buff and wax. Similar to what I said. My point here is, I don’t think $10k is too far off, so I worry about the cost being half even if I want to pay only half. Love your quote, just wonder why the big difference.

If I was back in the states, I’d go to the shops myself and get a better understanding of the labor and materials involved.

Tom

Thanks Tom for your thoughtful comments! It certainly is a conundrum which bears some serious thought. Not sure which way we will go at this point since we are at least 6 months out. Have recently been looking into Permanon which Helmsman (Nate) turned us on to. I really hate to be at the mercy of someone else to maintain my boat since I’ve always done it myself, the old fashioned way. One thing I can say is, we do have some time to study this! Please keep us in the loop regarding what you find out and we will do the same!:

 

[IRENE]

I just got a quote for ceramic for my Helmsman 38 that is coming in the fall. I was Quoted $4600 by Swift Spirit and $9500 by Premier. Quite a price difference. Swift spirit has come with some great recommendations so I’m inclined to go with them. I guess my point is, it pays to compare products and prices.

We just applied ceramic coating (Gyeon) to our starboard hull. It is EASIER to apply and remove than Rain-X. The bulk of the work was polishing to get the finish we wanted to seal in. Your new Helmsman will need only minimal prep and probably no polishing. We would have all of IRENE covered in ceramic by now, but for the weather. As the summer progresses, we will complete the entire boat. Gyeon instructions say 48 hours to dry, and we have not had that. We used about 1/3 of a 100ml bottle on one side of the hull. We are in slip B-3 at John Wayne Marina if you want to see it.

 

[Helmsman]

Thanks Tom,
The actual application for this is fairly simple. The work is getting the hull prepped. With a new boat, a company (called Glidecoat with detailers around the country) told me that it was much less work. The first step is to get the wax off from the mold, and polish any areas that have a blemish. Then spray on and wipe into the gel coat.

I would not wax after application. That wax would have to be removed before updating the ceramic. Most ceramic dealers sell a mix that is to be used when you wash the boat. I think Rejex does that. I plan a follow up with Permanon about not needing more than one coat. That runs counter to how most companies sell their product. I haven’t found a negative review on either Permanon or Rejex. What I have found is disappointment over locking in oxidation and other imperfections into the finish.

Here is a message from Permanon which I PM’ed earlier but thought it might be useful to others. It is interesting that some ceramic detailers suggest that multiple coats are necessary. Permanon says to increase the concentration but to only apply one coat. Bear in mind that the advice below is based upon a new boat.

“Prep before a Permanon application simply involves making sure it's thoroughly clean. Rinse, wash with a detergent that rinses clean and has no additives (many detailers like to use Dawn Original dish detergent), rinse thoroughly, then apply Permanon immediately, and dry with a microfiber or other lint-free cloth. If you're doing this under the sun, then to avoid water spotting, dry the surface before applying Permanon, then apply Permanon in smaller sections and wipe dry immediately.

I've attached an area coverage chart to help you determine how much Permanon you'll need based on the square footage you need to seal. I recommend you order extra as most people over-apply (which is unnecessary and only wastes the product, but it tends to happen anyway), and it's good to have more on hand for maintenance applications down the road.

Permanon cannot adhere to itself, therefore it cannot be layered. One thorough application is all that's required until it starts to wear away and needs a maintenance application to fill any gaps in the protection.

First time applications on any fiberglass or Gel Coat surface should be applied at a 10% mix to make sure you're filling the pores of the microstructure. Fiberglass and Gel Coat surfaces are much more porous than the clear coats applied to cars. Then maintenance applications can be applied at a 5% mix.

Application instructions are included with every order. You can also find a link to a PDF copy of the instructions at the bottom of our FAQ's page, which is also where you'll find answers to these and many other questions. Here's a direct link: https://www.permanonfinishes.com/faqs “

 

[Helmsman]

We just applied ceramic coating (Gyeon) to our starboard hull. It is EASIER to apply and remove than Rain-X. The bulk of the work was polishing to get the finish we wanted to seal in. Your new Helmsman will need only minimal prep and probably no polishing. We would have all of IRENE covered in ceramic by now, but for the weather. As the summer progresses, we will complete the entire boat. Gyeon instructions say 48 hours to dry, and we have not had that. We used about 1/3 of a 100ml bottle on one side of the hull. We are in slip B-3 at John Wayne Marina if you want to see it.

Jeff,

Thank you. A couple of questions for you.

How many coats does Gyeon recommend?
What is the process for maintaining it?

 

[FWT]

Maybe someone can answer a question, that is sort of a "what then?" question.

So at the end of the useful life of an application, what's involved in moving on to a subsequent application or removal? It appears part of reason it works is penetration and hardness.

And, at the end of useful life, what does that look like? Yellowing? Or just chalking like untreated gelcoat?

Given there are different formulations, is it critical to have next applications be of the same formulation?

 

[Nancy n Larry]

Irene, we will stop by JWM and look at you boat. As a fellow “Sequimite”, it would be great to make your acquaintance. We hear you on the weather being uncooperative lately! I believe I have seen your Nordhaven down there. Beautiful boat and my favorite in the marina. Thank you for piping in!

 

[Helmsman]

Maybe someone can answer a question, that is sort of a "what then?" question.

So at the end of the useful life of an application, what's involved in moving on to a subsequent application or removal? It appears part of reason it works is penetration and hardness.

And, at the end of useful life, what does that look like? Yellowing? Or just chalking like untreated gelcoat?

Given there are different formulations, is it critical to have next applications be of the same formulation?

The idea from some manufacturers is that you continue to keep it updated as part of your washing routine. A lot of them sell a bottle of follow up applications used when you wash the boat. A fellow on MTOA had an application done late summer last year. He uses the follow up application when he washes his boat and told me the boat still looks great (communication a month ago). In my research, I have not heard of yellowing or anything. Perhaps someone else has.

 

[FWT]

Thanks

 

[Tom-Jill-Lilly]

FTW - None of the shops I spoke to could answer what, when to redo the work 10 years from now. They gave the "it-depends" answer to how it performs over time. One indicated if faded, they can redo that particular area. I personally had a large green strip at the top of the hull. It oxidized 4x the speed on the "sunny-side" at the dock.

I am assuming the vessel will need to be redone, sanded and refinished at 10 years.
Why I don't know because I can find history on the application more than 4 years.

BTW - the shops I spoke to include materials to keep the vessel up to snuff. They also include training. None of them offered or encourage that they maintain the boat because the maintenance is very simple. They did say, if I damage the boat and needs gelcoat rework, they may need to be involved.

 

[backinblue]

FTW - None of the shops I spoke to could answer what, when to redo the work 10 years from now. They gave the "it-depends" answer to how it performs over time. One indicated if faded, they can redo that particular area. I personally had a large green strip at the top of the hull. It oxidized 4x the speed on the "sunny-side" at the dock.

I am assuming the vessel will need to be redone, sanded and refinished at 10 years.
Why I don't know because I can find history on the application more than 4 years.

BTW - the shops I spoke to include materials to keep the vessel up to snuff. They also include training. None of them offered or encourage that they maintain the boat because the maintenance is very simple. They did say, if I damage the boat and needs gelcoat rework, they may need to be involved.

Some of these products have not been around for 10 years so it's difficult to know when there is no real history.