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Old 07-23-2022, 10:13 AM   #1
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Adding cleats to my boat

The deck hardware on our Mariner 37 is rock solid and very high quality, but we have only one cleat available for which friends and dock hands can secure lines. The hawse pipe cleats are great, but securing a line to the from the dock is difficult for most everyone (including me).

Our slip is a port tie and we often have marina friends help with arrivals and the initial tie. Throwing the bow line is clear, but I lack a simple and clear request for securing lines to the midship and stern hawse pipe cleats.

Adding stern cleats to the gunwale near the transom is pretty straightforward as there is access (albeit tight) from the lazarette to install the necessary backing plates, but where and how would mount a clear amidships for spring lines?
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Old 07-23-2022, 10:20 AM   #2
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Can you cut an access panel by the cleat location? You may have to move the cleat to where you can get access even if it isn’t the ideal location. I like to use 1/4” aluminum backing plates and butter them with thickened epoxy on the top side so they make intimate contact with the deck, a lot of times the bottom of the deck isn’t very smooth. By using the thickened epoxy you will have contact all over the aluminum instead of just the high points on the deck. Good luck.
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Old 07-23-2022, 10:26 AM   #3
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That is my plan as well, but finding access to the gunwale amidships is not clear and I am hoping for for insights before I start cutting.
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Old 07-23-2022, 11:39 AM   #4
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Much older boat but I have a similar problem. No midship cleats.
You may have to pull doors off , pull the fridge out or any other equipment from the interior in the general area you wish to mount a new cleat.
Just for good look. At this point no cutting or damaging stuff.
Do both sides, stbd. and port, to be sure you have sufficient access to properly mount a new cleat.

For a reasonable exam use of mechanic mirrors and a flashlight can be very helpfull. Or use one of the handheld camera probes with the flexible wands and an LED light. Mine has saved my bacon a couple of times.

I have not used the following method yet for the new cleats but have done this with stanchion mountings.

Access for your body is seriously reduced although some is needed. I have prepared 1/4 or even 5/16 or3/8 aluminum backing plates by using the cleats to mark out the drilling pattern.

Be sure the plates will fit properly, between both the cleats AND the backing plate mounting holes . Now is the time to make corrections.

If like mine the cleat mount area on top (outside) is about 2" wide but inside is less than 1.5". so you must carefully ensure the backing plate will seat properly. Radius the corners and round over the upper edges of the plates. Don't assume both mounting area will be duplicates.

I then drill the backing plate for HeliCoils of the bolt size to be used and install those. Read the instructions carefully. THey are not hard to deal with but be sure you understand what is needed.

I then use a much smaller piece of threaded ready rod, 3' of 8-32, which should be long enough. You will need some flexibilty of the rod thus the small size.

I drill one hole of that much smaller size rod in both the deck AND the backing plate and install a Helicoil in the plate only. Be carefull that the small holes are centered between the larger cleat holes. Make a pattern and double check that fit.

Put the rod through the deck hole with a nut and washer on the top so it does not just fall through, rather hangs. THen you can screw the backing plate to the rod and lift it into place. It may take some fiddling to line it up
between the deck and the plate holes. Install the cleat and cleat bolts and tighten it up.

If you wish to epoxy the plate to deck surface then use thickened epoxy to butter the plate and then lift the plate into place. DO this only after you have trial fitted both plates.
Personally I would trial fit the plates , then butter and lift the plates into place. DOn't go nuts on the epoxy, just enough to take care of any surface roughness. Use something like minifibres for the thickener, not glass balloons. Balloon are for decorative purposes. THis is not heavy structural but you still want toughness and some strength.

If you wish then once all is set up and adjusted you can run nuts and washers onto the extra bolt length and be sure there is some extra bolt length as the bolt ending inside the Helicoil will weaken the joint.

Use a long extension on a ratchet of the correct socket size and tighten. You will have to figure out what is needed specifically for this step. Deep sockets, standard socket, various extension lengths, drive size adapters,

I have often used tape to make the fit between a socket and a nut tight enough for the socket to stay at the open socket end untill the nut is started.

Just some thoughts.
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Old 07-23-2022, 11:55 AM   #5
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Some very good tips.
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Old 07-23-2022, 12:40 PM   #6
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I have often used tape to make the fit between a socket and a nut tight enough for the socket to stay at the open socket end untill the nut is started.

Just some thoughts.
May I offer one correction to your excellent thoughts to wit:

"I have often used tape to make the fit between a socket and a nut tight enough for the NUT to stay at the open socket end until the nut is started."
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Old 07-23-2022, 03:14 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by HeadedToTexas View Post
Our slip is a port tie and we often have marina friends help with arrivals and the initial tie. Throwing the bow line is clear, but I lack a simple and clear request for securing lines to the midship and stern hawse pipe cleats.

In the meantime... is there a way to pre-position lines on the cleats/piles at your home slip that can be picked up from the boat?

Maybe pre-measured so all you have to do is drop a loop over a boat cleat?

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Old 07-23-2022, 04:36 PM   #8
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In the meantime... is there a way to pre-position lines on the cleats/piles at your home slip that can be picked up from the boat?

Maybe pre-measured so all you have to do is drop a loop over a boat cleat?

-Chris
That's how we do it for our home slip. Otherwise the line is pre attached on the boat and cleated at the dock end for initial tie up.
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Old 07-23-2022, 04:58 PM   #9
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Old 07-23-2022, 05:11 PM   #10
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That's how we do it for our home slip. Otherwise the line is pre attached on the boat and cleated at the dock end for initial tie up.
On our Formula we have permanent lines on the bow cleats and tie them off on the after spring cleats. When we dock my wife takes the stern line ashore and then gets the bow line off the spring cleat and secures it. She won’t go up onto the bow to handle lines, don’t blame her since there isn’t anything to hold onto up there.
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Old 07-23-2022, 06:18 PM   #11
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Had my builder (Bill Kimley) add a second set of midship cleats some distance apart. He was reluctant but employed them at dock because "they are convenient." ... When docked, I use one line from cleat to dock and to second midship cleat. Prevents forward and backward movement.
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Old 07-24-2022, 08:40 AM   #12
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Our home slip is a pier with four 50 footers. Docking is easy in the prevailing west wind, but less so when the wind is from the east. Help on the dock ranges from a half dozen experienced captains to no one.

These new cleats are not for when we have no help on the dock. Nor will they improve our “leaving the boat” tie as the hawse pipe cleats and current deck hardware are outstanding when we have the time.

My objective for these new cleats is to give friends and deck hands a place to land preset dock lines I will have hanging from hooks on dock posts. Right now, I just don’t have a good answer to “where do you want this line?”
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Old 07-24-2022, 10:24 AM   #13
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Excellent thread. Thickened epoxy vs. a flexible adhesive makes a lot of sense, and mine would go on surfaces well away from toes.
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Old 08-07-2022, 06:58 AM   #14
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We have the same boat and from your picture you seem to have a midship hawse pipe cleats. I use mine for spring lines. What am i missing from your request?
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Old 08-07-2022, 08:02 AM   #15
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What am i missing from your request?
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We do too, Barrie, but when arriving at a dock with unfamiliar dock hands or friends with plenty more on their minds than where our lines go, a cleat is obvious where a hawse pipe cleat is not.

How do you secure a dock line to a hawse pipe cleat from the dock? Or more to the point, how to you ask your friends or neighbors to secure lines to your hawse pipe cleats?
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Old 08-07-2022, 08:16 AM   #16
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I would tell them just to wrap it around and around a couple times.... I would fix it later and it is the rare instance that anything more than a couple wraps wouldn't hold for a few minutes.

I usually have to fix most cleating jobs anyway as they are lead in wrong or wrapped wrong or the line needs adjusting anyway.

For preset docklines? Heck.... most people have them adjusted with the loop end coming abord the boat so "friends" can drop the loop over the cleat like Chris pointed out in his post. You can do the same with a hawse cleat one of several ways. Most of them try all kinds of different things when attaching the loop to a regular cleat that I have to fix too.
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Old 08-07-2022, 08:24 AM   #17
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That’s exactly what I’m after, PS, but it’s almost impossible with hawse pipe type cleats, at least where they are on the Mariner 37 / Helmsman 38.

And yes, virtually all initial ties get re-done once everything is settled in place. It’s that initial tie that is tough. Feeding a dock line in through the hawse pipe is not hard, but knowing about, much less putting a good tie on, the cleats inside and well out of view from the dock is very difficult.
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Old 08-07-2022, 09:39 AM   #18
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That’s exactly what I’m after, PS, but it’s almost impossible with hawse pipe type cleats, at least where they are on the Mariner 37 / Helmsman 38.

And yes, virtually all initial ties get re-done once everything is settled in place. It’s that initial tie that is tough. Feeding a dock line in through the hawse pipe is not hard, but knowing about, much less putting a good tie on, the cleats inside and well out of view from the dock is very difficult.
No one but you has to make up a good hitch on the hawse hole tie, friends and helpers can Mickey Mouse it till you do it right....of course they would have to be on board if the cleat is that far out of reach or sight.

99% of the marinas I have been at.... all someone has to is stick a line through the hole, pull it back over the rail and put in a half hitch in. That will generally hold a boat your size till you cleat it up properly.

And if all my waterman type ideas are dumb, then splice up a loop in a short line that before docking, you cleat it off properly and stick the loop to hang outside of the hawse hole. Then just put a rated carabiner on the dock line (or hanging loop).... or use a shackle if you think helpers can master one of those to connect them together. This setup would be done (except if you use a shackle that would have to be tightened and possibly moused).
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Old 08-07-2022, 10:06 AM   #19
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... all someone has to is stick a line through the hole, pull it back over the rail and put in a half hitch in. That will generally hold a boat your size till you cleat it up properly.
That makes sense, and I've seen one of my more experienced sailboat neighbors tie us off that way once. A friend also suggested the short line hanging out of the hawse pipe for docking. Excellent idea. Thank you!
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Old 08-07-2022, 01:13 PM   #20
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Sorry, I'm still not understanding your problem. When i dock, i have three lines draped over the safety rails, bow-spring-stern, ready for easy pickup by dockhands. Most times helpers just tie a simple wrap on the cleat for me to fuss with later. (now i'm in fresh water. It might be different in salt water) Just kidding!!
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