Adding cleats to my boat

[rslifkin]

Based on that picture, what about getting a stern line on first (if that cleat is more reachable) right as you kick the stern into the dock, then power against it to hold the boat in place while you go take care of the spring line to the hawse cleat?

 

[psneeld]

Based on that picture, what about getting a stern line on first (if that cleat is more reachable) right as you kick the stern into the dock, then power against it to hold the boat in place while you go take care of the spring line to the hawse cleat?

If tying up with no help at all on the dock...

I agree with the quoted post...if the wind is really strong and the stern line doesn't work.... a long after bow spring line dropped over the cleat where your stern line goes would work after T-boning the dock where the cleat is.

Permanent lines be damned till after you are tied with either the stern or after bow spring.... leave the boat in gear at dead slow so it holds, then with a boat hook grab the permanent line for the bow, do the same aft, take it out of gear and fix whatever you need to.

The main gotcha in the picture is how much current rips though there....if any.

 

[rslifkin]

If tying up with no help at all on the dock...

I agree with the quoted post...if the wind is really strong and the stern line doesn't work.... a long after bow spring line dropped over the cleat where your stern line goes would work after T-boning the dock where the cleat is.

Permanent lines be damned till after you are tied with either the stern or after bow spring.... leave the boat in gear at dead slow so it holds, then with a boat hook grab the permanent line for the bow, do the same aft, take it out of gear and fix whatever you need to.

The main gotcha in the picture is how much current rips though there....if any.

Agreed. Although for a spring off the bow it'll need testing to confirm you can actually hold the boat that way without just yanking the bow in (and leaving the stern way off the dock). Might need to have a spring pre-rigged from the center hawse cleat for that purpose instead.

 

[HeadedToTexas]

No current, but the wind comes around to east (and off the dock) often with a vengeance.

I understand the stern line physics and strategy, but the Mariner 37 has only a hawse pipe cleat and that is through the transom as shown below (albeit with a starboard tie). I get a blank stare from virtually every casual helper when they stand waiting with the stern dock line that hangs from a hook on the dock post.

Getting to the “inside” of the port aft gunwale from the lazarette can be done, so installing a stern cleat there would not be difficult. The newer Helmsman 38 models appear to have a traditional cleat in that location. It’s the midship cleat on the gunwale outside the base of the steps that is both ideal and hard to reach.

 

[Helmsman]

We have a very similar set up, though are still working toward having all lines are set at just the right length for our slip. The challenge I face is times when the wind is blowing off the dock and the window of opportunity to get those one or two lines on is short. It is further complicated by being single or short handed and depending on neighbors or dock hands.

We have a port side tie on a pier rather than a slip, so the wind is important. There is plenty of clearance, but our slip is between two 50 footers. Ours is the trawler in the middle of the photo below.

A cleat is an obvious and quick to explain landing point for that just the right length for our slip line, but a hawse pipe cleat isn’t. There have been some good suggestions that I intend to try as adding new cleats is not as clear as I had hoped.

Have you thought about spinning the boat for a starboard tie. You could then use the midship hawse hole and be right there, since your helm is on that side next to the PH door? It looks like your neighbors are doing that.

 

[HeadedToTexas]

The picture above is a starboard tie and that leaves the boat facing north, and that leaves the cockpit and bridge deck facing south. Shade is important here in the summer, and we found the port tie puts our outside spaces in the shade most of the day. It's a compromise, for sure.

 

[wkearney99]

Ran across this gem of a picture the other day.

If you ever wondered why good cleat backing plate mounting is important...

 

[psneeld]

Sounds like helpers from the dock can't deal well with your boat's hawse cleat setup.

To me the simple solution is have the pre-set lines on the boat , brought up and over the rail. Forget lines on the dock and more cleats on the boat. That way anyone on the boat can toss them on a cleat or a person on the dock can just reach and grab the line and put it on any cleat you direct. Heck most people on the dock love to see lines and will grab them right away....the trick is don't let them snub them off too early or to the wrong spot under penalty of death.

My record for t-boning the dock and using an after bow spring to bring a single, no thruster to the dock was 50G60 knots. It was a low profile boat (26 Shamrock with the midship pilothouse) ....but still I was happy to know it worked.

 

[HeadedToTexas]

To me the simple solution is have the pre-set lines on the boat , brought up and over the rail.

This and the leader with a suitable carabiner on the end hanging out of the hawse pipe for dock hands to clip to dock lines are the two approaches I intend to try. Great stuff. Thanks folks.

 

[Helmsman]

The picture above is a starboard tie and that leaves the boat facing north, and that leaves the cockpit and bridge deck facing south. Shade is important here in the summer, and we found the port tie puts our outside spaces in the shade most of the day. It's a compromise, for sure.

Ok. I assumed it must be a mirror image since you mentioned a port tie. Shouldn’t have assumed!
Can’t remember if you have thrusters, but one partial solution might be a remote for them.

 

[HeadedToTexas]

Single screw, bow thruster only.

 

[Comodave]

Have you thought about adding a stern thruster? I put one on our last boat and it was a pretty easy install.

 

[HeadedToTexas]

I haven’t, but I would not mind the ease in maneuvering. That said, I am okay getting the boat to go where I need it to go. The real challenge is getting it to stay there long enough to get a line to two on. Suppose a stern thruster would do that too, of course.

 

[Comodave]

Thrusters with a remote control will hold the boat while you get the lines on. We put the stern line on first. Then my wife will get off the boat and do the bow line. The bow line on each side is already on the bow cleat and runs back to the stern spring cleat. Once she has the stern line on I hold the bow on the dock with the bow thruster. So far it has worked well for us.

 

[Barrie]

Dear HeadedToTexas - Thanks for providing all the detail and photo. One assumes all boats of the same brand are the same. Guess not. Our 2007 Mariner came with a stern thruster. I could not live without it as our boat does not back up worth a dam and there is no apparent prop-walk to count on.
We may be spoiled, but when we come in to docking, there are sometimes too many helpers. Also we can radio in for staff to assist if needed.
Back to your first question, our boat came with after-market 6" cleats mounted between mid-ship and stern. They are mounted on top of that 4" ledge right out side the galley window and dining window on the port side. Seems secure enough and you can always keep a permanent line on by tying it up on the upper deck rails until needed.
I recently mounted two grab handles on stern to assist in entry. I found the fiberglass to be very solid and thick. see photo, so you should feel comfortable installing extra cleats where you feel they are needed. Good luck
Barrie

 

[Comodave]

That may be a location that is accessible from the inside. It may or may not be the absolute best location but sometimes you have to live with what you can get. And a stern thruster is pretty easy to install if you have room inside for it. And there must be room since the other boat has a stern thruster in it. I installed one in our last boat. The hardest part was running the control wires up to the flybridge. The rest took about 1.5 days with a friend helping me. He freaked out a bit when I cut the 8” hole in the transom…

 

[FWT]

I haven’t, but I would not mind the ease in maneuvering. That said, I am okay getting the boat to go where I need it to go. The real challenge is getting it to stay there long enough to get a line to two on. Suppose a stern thruster would do that too, of course.

Helmsman recently made stern thrusters standard. You can omit if you like.

They also made the rudder larger at some point. With the larger rudder they make the point that a jolt of forward power with the helm hard over moves the stern very well, making the stern thrusters unnecessary. Given your vintage, this may not be your experience.

In the end I did go with the stern thrusters AND a remote for both thrusters. My point was not to rely on that to move the stern. My point was, as you point out, KEEPING it where I want it until tied up. I want to be set up well for single handing. Its having that remote (for both) that's the value added I was looking for. The remote is cheap by the way.

 

[HeadedToTexas]

Even the newest Helmsman 38E models lack spring cleats and that makes me wonder what I am missing, though virtually every other boat in our marina has convenient cleats for spring and stern lines and a somewhat obsessive search of trawler images on the internet shows me that almost all boats of this size and style have traditional cleats in those traditional locations. My quest continues.

A port tie offers the most shade in our slip. That side gets most of my line handling attention for now, but both sides would really benefit from spring cleats. The underside of the gunwale directly beneath the portlight in the day head is readily accessible, but it looks like removing the cowling covering the port fuel fill line would reveal a better location. Not only is that closer to the step for better access, but the backing plate could be hidden beneath the fuel line cowling. Anyone know what's under that cover?

 

[psneeld]

You know you don't necessarily need midship cleats for spring lines or anything much of the time, most boats.

I cruised my Albin over 10,000 miles with no midship cleats.

I did install a couple as I already had the hawse holes but didn't like the deck cleats with them ( toe stubbong/ trip hazards).

I wound up lag screwing a couple next to each side hawse hole into PT 2x4s slathered in 5100 in a nearly inaccessible area. After doing it, the cleats were now occasional ankle biters/ shoe lace snaggers..... so I almost wish I hadn't.

One thing though on my boat, I did have hawse holes on the transom AND sides near the stern cleat. As long as you can spring off a stern cleat, the midship ones are much less or not important at all.

 

[wkearney99]

Even the newest Helmsman 38E models lack spring cleats and that makes me wonder what I am missing

From their website it appears the hawse pipe has cleat horns on the inside? (zoom in)

 

[HeadedToTexas]

I can appreciate the toe ripping problem with deck cleats and do not look forward to my first broken toe at the "hands" of those on our foredeck. The site I am thinking about puts the midship cleat on a gunwale outside of the steps to the bridge. It's not that you can't put a foot there, but it would be awkward and completely uncalled for.

Sites for a stern cleat are far less clear. The hawse type cleats are in through the transom and not obvious to deck help. A cleat mounted on on the aft gunwale would be handy and easy to reach, but would become a toe stubbed at times and would detract from the clean look of the cockpit bulwarks. And it would take a skinny alien-esque arm to install the backing plate up as it is very hard to reach.

 

[HeadedToTexas]

From their website it appears the hawse pipe has cleat horns on the inside?

Yes, the midship hawse cleats definitely have horns on the inside on the early Mariner 37 models as well. We use them all the time and they are very solid and secure, they just aren't very functional for dock help to use when initially securing the boat. It is usually just two of us aboard and my wife is at the bow in most wind scenarios.

When it's easy, it's easy and sidling up to the dock involves simply grabbing the dock line off its hook, slipping it through the hawse pipe and securing it to the integral cleat. It's the "not easy" scenarios I am looking to solve.

 

[Spinner]

If the problem lies with the dock lines at your home marina, go the other direction, just as you would when going to any other dock. Ditch the lines that are left at the dock and use lines secured at the boat, and then take those to the dock. Or am I missing something here?

 

[HeadedToTexas]

That's what we do for bow and stern lines, but we get a lot of blank looks with only one person aboard to throw lines. Our interim and yet to be tested plan is to have a spring line of the correct length secured to the hawse cleat and draped over the gunwale. Dock help could then grab that line and secure it to a cleat on the dock.

 

[ranger58sb]

That's what we do for bow and stern lines, but we get a lot of blank looks with only one person aboard to throw lines. Our interim and yet to be tested plan is to have a spring line of the correct length secured to the hawse cleat and draped over the gunwale. Dock help could then grab that line and secure it to a cleat on the dock.

We got new dock neighbors this last week, in a Marlow 49 Explorer. Hawse holes all over the place.

Anyway, that's what they did when they returned from the pump-out dock the other day while we were standing by. They had bow, spring (both for and aft) and stern lines all pre-draped so they could be reached by some bubba (me) on the dock.

The Admiral told me they'd been taught to religiously do all that -- at every docking event -- both sides of the boat -- by their training captain...

All pretty straightforward, actually.

Although I knew what they needed me to do. Innocent bystanders and other stray dock walkers would benefit from guidance from the boat: what line first, where, when to hold fast (as when springing), etc.

FWIW, we don't always trust dock "help" when we're warping in on a spring line. More often, we'll have dock "help" lead that line around a cleat or pile and back to the boat... where my Admiral (who can hear me in the headsets) has control over the hold fast/slack/tie off routines...

That said, when we have to dock like that, mostly once that first line is on and secured, we're pretty much docked. The rest of the lines are just tidying up.

-Chris

 

[SoWhat]

Dock 'help' isn't always helpful when they want to wrap the line on the closest cleat rather than the one requested. There is rarely dock help so we have all 4 lines draped over cap rail. Once the stern is past the end of the slip my wife can step off with stern or spring line. If calm I can step off and grab bow line. If it's really windy I throw her the bow line.
It can be a real fire drill as she is not a life long boater and doesn't always grab the right line or the right cleat. That's what fenders are for.

 

[HeadedToTexas]

The list of variables is ping and unpredictable. Seems to me that making it as obvious as possible is important. Experienced help doesn’t need it to be obvious, but I bet they are the least likely to be offended by it. When conditions are challenging, obvious is even more effective.

 

[Helmsman]

The list of variables is ping and unpredictable. Seems to me that making it as obvious as possible is important. Experienced help doesn’t need it to be obvious, but I bet they are the least likely to be offended by it. When conditions are challenging, obvious is even more effective.

Nice picture of your boat in your signature line.

 

[HeadedToTexas]

Thank you! That was the last days of September 2020 before Winter gripped Grand Haven, Michigan. A couple days later we would set sail north out of the Grand River for Lake Erie and our new home of Sandusky Bay.

 

[ranger58sb]

It can be a real fire drill as she is not a life long boater and doesn't always grab the right line or the right cleat.

FWIW, we've "color-coded" our lines, different for bow/stern versus springs... to address almost exactly that issue.

Wifey didn't have much trouble, but for several years we were taking Wounded Warriors out fishing and when some were eager to help on our return... it was faster/easier to call out colors instead of functions.

-Chris