Adding cleats to my boat

[HeadedToTexas]

The deck hardware on our Mariner 37 is rock solid and very high quality, but we have only one cleat available for which friends and dock hands can secure lines. The hawse pipe cleats are great, but securing a line to the from the dock is difficult for most everyone (including me).

Our slip is a port tie and we often have marina friends help with arrivals and the initial tie. Throwing the bow line is clear, but I lack a simple and clear request for securing lines to the midship and stern hawse pipe cleats.

Adding stern cleats to the gunwale near the transom is pretty straightforward as there is access (albeit tight) from the lazarette to install the necessary backing plates, but where and how would mount a clear amidships for spring lines?

 

[Comodave]

Can you cut an access panel by the cleat location? You may have to move the cleat to where you can get access even if it isn’t the ideal location. I like to use 1/4” aluminum backing plates and butter them with thickened epoxy on the top side so they make intimate contact with the deck, a lot of times the bottom of the deck isn’t very smooth. By using the thickened epoxy you will have contact all over the aluminum instead of just the high points on the deck. Good luck.

 

[HeadedToTexas]

That is my plan as well, but finding access to the gunwale amidships is not clear and I am hoping for for insights before I start cutting.

 

[C lectric]

Much older boat but I have a similar problem. No midship cleats.
You may have to pull doors off , pull the fridge out or any other equipment from the interior in the general area you wish to mount a new cleat.
Just for good look. At this point no cutting or damaging stuff.
Do both sides, stbd. and port, to be sure you have sufficient access to properly mount a new cleat.

For a reasonable exam use of mechanic mirrors and a flashlight can be very helpfull. Or use one of the handheld camera probes with the flexible wands and an LED light. Mine has saved my bacon a couple of times.

I have not used the following method yet for the new cleats but have done this with stanchion mountings.

Access for your body is seriously reduced although some is needed. I have prepared 1/4 or even 5/16 or3/8 aluminum backing plates by using the cleats to mark out the drilling pattern.

Be sure the plates will fit properly, between both the cleats AND the backing plate mounting holes . Now is the time to make corrections.

If like mine the cleat mount area on top (outside) is about 2" wide but inside is less than 1.5". so you must carefully ensure the backing plate will seat properly. Radius the corners and round over the upper edges of the plates. Don't assume both mounting area will be duplicates.

I then drill the backing plate for HeliCoils of the bolt size to be used and install those. Read the instructions carefully. THey are not hard to deal with but be sure you understand what is needed.

I then use a much smaller piece of threaded ready rod, 3' of 8-32, which should be long enough. You will need some flexibilty of the rod thus the small size.

I drill one hole of that much smaller size rod in both the deck AND the backing plate and install a Helicoil in the plate only. Be carefull that the small holes are centered between the larger cleat holes. Make a pattern and double check that fit.

Put the rod through the deck hole with a nut and washer on the top so it does not just fall through, rather hangs. THen you can screw the backing plate to the rod and lift it into place. It may take some fiddling to line it up
between the deck and the plate holes. Install the cleat and cleat bolts and tighten it up.

If you wish to epoxy the plate to deck surface then use thickened epoxy to butter the plate and then lift the plate into place. DO this only after you have trial fitted both plates.
Personally I would trial fit the plates , then butter and lift the plates into place. DOn't go nuts on the epoxy, just enough to take care of any surface roughness. Use something like minifibres for the thickener, not glass balloons. Balloon are for decorative purposes. THis is not heavy structural but you still want toughness and some strength.

If you wish then once all is set up and adjusted you can run nuts and washers onto the extra bolt length and be sure there is some extra bolt length as the bolt ending inside the Helicoil will weaken the joint.

Use a long extension on a ratchet of the correct socket size and tighten. You will have to figure out what is needed specifically for this step. Deep sockets, standard socket, various extension lengths, drive size adapters,

I have often used tape to make the fit between a socket and a nut tight enough for the socket to stay at the open socket end untill the nut is started.

Just some thoughts.

 

[Comodave]

Some very good tips.

 

[rgano]

I have often used tape to make the fit between a socket and a nut tight enough for the socket to stay at the open socket end untill the nut is started.

Just some thoughts.

May I offer one correction to your excellent thoughts to wit:

"I have often used tape to make the fit between a socket and a nut tight enough for the NUT to stay at the open socket end until the nut is started."

 

[ranger58sb]

Our slip is a port tie and we often have marina friends help with arrivals and the initial tie. Throwing the bow line is clear, but I lack a simple and clear request for securing lines to the midship and stern hawse pipe cleats.

In the meantime... is there a way to pre-position lines on the cleats/piles at your home slip that can be picked up from the boat?

Maybe pre-measured so all you have to do is drop a loop over a boat cleat?

-Chris

 

[rslifkin]

In the meantime... is there a way to pre-position lines on the cleats/piles at your home slip that can be picked up from the boat?

Maybe pre-measured so all you have to do is drop a loop over a boat cleat?

-Chris

That's how we do it for our home slip. Otherwise the line is pre attached on the boat and cleated at the dock end for initial tie up.

 

[DCDC]

Past postings:

https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s32/new-cleat-location-63372.html

 

[Comodave]

That's how we do it for our home slip. Otherwise the line is pre attached on the boat and cleated at the dock end for initial tie up.

On our Formula we have permanent lines on the bow cleats and tie them off on the after spring cleats. When we dock my wife takes the stern line ashore and then gets the bow line off the spring cleat and secures it. She won’t go up onto the bow to handle lines, don’t blame her since there isn’t anything to hold onto up there.

 

[markpierce]

Had my builder (Bill Kimley) add a second set of midship cleats some distance apart. He was reluctant but employed them at dock because "they are convenient." ... When docked, I use one line from cleat to dock and to second midship cleat. Prevents forward and backward movement.

 

[HeadedToTexas]

Our home slip is a pier with four 50 footers. Docking is easy in the prevailing west wind, but less so when the wind is from the east. Help on the dock ranges from a half dozen experienced captains to no one.

These new cleats are not for when we have no help on the dock. Nor will they improve our “leaving the boat” tie as the hawse pipe cleats and current deck hardware are outstanding when we have the time.

My objective for these new cleats is to give friends and deck hands a place to land preset dock lines I will have hanging from hooks on dock posts. Right now, I just don’t have a good answer to “where do you want this line?”

 

[HeadedToTexas]

Past postings:

https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s32/new-cleat-location-63372.html

Excellent thread. Thickened epoxy vs. a flexible adhesive makes a lot of sense, and mine would go on surfaces well away from toes.

 

[Barrie]

We have the same boat and from your picture you seem to have a midship hawse pipe cleats. I use mine for spring lines. What am i missing from your request?
Barrie

 

[HeadedToTexas]

What am i missing from your request?
Barrie

We do too, Barrie, but when arriving at a dock with unfamiliar dock hands or friends with plenty more on their minds than where our lines go, a cleat is obvious where a hawse pipe cleat is not.

How do you secure a dock line to a hawse pipe cleat from the dock? Or more to the point, how to you ask your friends or neighbors to secure lines to your hawse pipe cleats?

 

[psneeld]

I would tell them just to wrap it around and around a couple times.... I would fix it later and it is the rare instance that anything more than a couple wraps wouldn't hold for a few minutes.

I usually have to fix most cleating jobs anyway as they are lead in wrong or wrapped wrong or the line needs adjusting anyway.

For preset docklines? Heck.... most people have them adjusted with the loop end coming abord the boat so "friends" can drop the loop over the cleat like Chris pointed out in his post. You can do the same with a hawse cleat one of several ways. Most of them try all kinds of different things when attaching the loop to a regular cleat that I have to fix too.

 

[HeadedToTexas]

That’s exactly what I’m after, PS, but it’s almost impossible with hawse pipe type cleats, at least where they are on the Mariner 37 / Helmsman 38.

And yes, virtually all initial ties get re-done once everything is settled in place. It’s that initial tie that is tough. Feeding a dock line in through the hawse pipe is not hard, but knowing about, much less putting a good tie on, the cleats inside and well out of view from the dock is very difficult.

 

[psneeld]

That’s exactly what I’m after, PS, but it’s almost impossible with hawse pipe type cleats, at least where they are on the Mariner 37 / Helmsman 38.

And yes, virtually all initial ties get re-done once everything is settled in place. It’s that initial tie that is tough. Feeding a dock line in through the hawse pipe is not hard, but knowing about, much less putting a good tie on, the cleats inside and well out of view from the dock is very difficult.

No one but you has to make up a good hitch on the hawse hole tie, friends and helpers can Mickey Mouse it till you do it right....of course they would have to be on board if the cleat is that far out of reach or sight.

99% of the marinas I have been at.... all someone has to is stick a line through the hole, pull it back over the rail and put in a half hitch in. That will generally hold a boat your size till you cleat it up properly.

And if all my waterman type ideas are dumb, then splice up a loop in a short line that before docking, you cleat it off properly and stick the loop to hang outside of the hawse hole. Then just put a rated carabiner on the dock line (or hanging loop).... or use a shackle if you think helpers can master one of those to connect them together. This setup would be done (except if you use a shackle that would have to be tightened and possibly moused).

 

[HeadedToTexas]

... all someone has to is stick a line through the hole, pull it back over the rail and put in a half hitch in. That will generally hold a boat your size till you cleat it up properly.

That makes sense, and I've seen one of my more experienced sailboat neighbors tie us off that way once. A friend also suggested the short line hanging out of the hawse pipe for docking. Excellent idea. Thank you!

 

[Barrie]

Sorry, I'm still not understanding your problem. When i dock, i have three lines draped over the safety rails, bow-spring-stern, ready for easy pickup by dockhands. Most times helpers just tie a simple wrap on the cleat for me to fuss with later. (now i'm in fresh water. It might be different in salt water) Just kidding!!
Barrie

 

[Comodave]

My wife doesn’t want to go up on the bow of our Formula. So I added bow and stern thrusters. I have permanent bow lines attached to the bow cleats on each side. They are run to the stern spring cleat and cleated off while underway. When we dock, she handles a stern line from the swim platform. Then walks forward on the dock and gets the bow line off the spring cleat and takes it forward on the dock and makes it fast to the dock cleat. Maybe have a line attached to your hawse cleat and run it forward to the bow for the people on the dock to grab. Then they just need to attach it to the dock and you will be good to go.

 

[psneeld]

Sorry, I'm still not understanding your problem. When i dock, i have three lines draped over the safety rails, bow-spring-stern, ready for easy pickup by dockhands. Most times helpers just tie a simple wrap on the cleat for me to fuss with later. (now i'm in fresh water. It might be different in salt water) Just kidding!!
Barrie

Many people who return to a "home" dock most of the time, often attach lines to the dock/pilings and just bring them to the boat cleats. When it works well, it's easy for both those on the dock and the boat as everything is measured and always the same.

ON that vessel, the midship cleat is difficult to reach/see because it is well below the cap rail and is a hawse hole cleat.

 

[FlyWright]

We do too, Barrie, but when arriving at a dock with unfamiliar dock hands or friends with plenty more on their minds than where our lines go, a cleat is obvious where a hawse pipe cleat is not.

How do you secure a dock line to a hawse pipe cleat from the dock? Or more to the point, how to you ask your friends or neighbors to secure lines to your hawse pipe cleats?

Sorry, I'm still not understanding your problem. When i dock, i have three lines draped over the safety rails, bow-spring-stern, ready for easy pickup by dockhands. Most times helpers just tie a simple wrap on the cleat for me to fuss with later. (now i'm in fresh water. It might be different in salt water) Just kidding!!
Barrie

I'm with Barrie on this...my lines are 'rigged and ready' along with my fenders and other gear before approaching the dock. If you have them set up in advance, it doesn't matter if you've got a cleat, sampson post or hawsepipe.

I keep my bowlines rigged and resting along the caprail to amidship abeam the stbd door. Prior to approaching the dock, my midship and aft cleats are set up with lines resting over the caprail and available to crew or dock personnel.

Many people who return to a "home" dock most of the time, often attach lines to the dock/pilings and just bring them to the boat cleats. When it works well, it's easy for both those on the dock and the boat as everything is measured and always the same.

ON that vessel, the midship cleat is difficult to reach/see because it is well below the cap rail and is a hawse hole cleat.

My slip is covered so I have posts at bow, midship and aft to hold home dock lines always rigged and at the ready on hooks. It sure makes coming and going much simpler, especially for someone like me who single-hands with and without guests aboard.

 

[psneeld]

Not sure what is going on with why the OP's question is in question.

Though nothing surprises me on TF anymore.

Some people (maybe most) have permanent lines at their home dock and a set of lines and fenders they rig when cruising away from home.

If coming home and one of the "permanent lines" needs to go on a hawse hole cleat that can't be reached or seen from people on the dock helping....I see the OP's dilemma. There are multiple solutions, but to me adding a cleat isn't really one of them.

 

[ranger58sb]

That makes sense, and I've seen one of my more experienced sailboat neighbors tie us off that way once.

I think I don't understand your situation.

We don't ever see "friends" or dockmates or whatever tying off somebody else's boat at their home slip. Nobody ties "us" off except "us."

Most folks around here use pre-set lines at their home slip. Returning boaters pick up those preset lines (or at least the first important one) from onboard the boat -- sometimes with a boathook if necessary.

Attachment at the boat end varies: the spliced loop over a cleat, a bowline loop over a cleat, and actual cleat hitch, whatever. We've not ever had hawse holes to deal with, but I don't see where that would add much complication, if any.

???

We're at a new-to-us boatyard since this last year, and one of our new dock neighbors (living aboard on a really nice sailboat) does come down to help when he happens to be around when we're returning. And then he mostly just stands there, 'cause there's nothing much for him to do. Nice guy, though, and we usually yuck it up a bit about our trip or whatever...

-Chris

 

[HeadedToTexas]

Understanding the problem is more likely my shortcoming, Barrie! Most I’ve seen and helped have dock lines on, well, the dock. Hadn’t occurred to me to have those handy “correct length” lines on the boat, though that is certainly a clean solution.

Since those same cleats are needed for dock lines at other docks, do you mark the “home dock” lines with the proper length for an easy tie when approaching your home dock?

 

[Helmsman]

Understanding the problem is more likely my shortcoming, Barrie! Most I’ve seen and helped have dock lines on, well, the dock. Hadn’t occurred to me to have those handy “correct length” lines on the boat, though that is certainly a clean solution.

Since those same cleats are needed for dock lines at other docks, do you mark the “home dock” lines with the proper length for an easy tie when approaching your home dock?

The way we do it is we leave the lines and fenders at the home dock. The boat ends are attached to hooks about 5 feet up on the dock posts. As we pull up, we reach over, pull the line off the hook and tie off the boat. The lines are set at just the right length for our slip, and so they never leave the dock, and the boat is tied off properly every time. When we leave, the opposite happens.

We never have anyone at the dock waiting on us since it is a private dock. We carry lines and fenders on the boat for travel.

 

[ranger58sb]

The way we do it is we leave the lines and fenders at the home dock. The boat ends are attached to hooks about 5 feet up on the dock posts. As we pull up, we reach over, pull the line off the hook and tie off the boat. The lines are set at just the right length for our slip, and so they never leave the dock, and the boat is tied off properly every time. When we leave, the opposite happens.

We never have anyone at the dock waiting on us .... We carry lines and fenders on the boat for travel.

Yep, all that.

-Chris

 

[psneeld]

Something that may be lost in the discussion of dock lines and docking in general....

For those relatively new to it all.... much of the time.... a boat only needs one or two lines to remain pretty much in place for a short time when first coming in. True when tidal current or wind shifts or in areas with surge/wake issues, another line may be needed.

The point being.... is the approach and landing should be planned so someone (even the helmsman) can easily, quickly and most important "assuredly" get that one critical line on and then concentrate down the pecking order as usually half of the mooring lines aren't doing much till the conditions change.

 

[HeadedToTexas]

We have a very similar set up, though are still working toward having all lines are set at just the right length for our slip. The challenge I face is times when the wind is blowing off the dock and the window of opportunity to get those one or two lines on is short. It is further complicated by being single or short handed and depending on neighbors or dock hands.

We have a port side tie on a pier rather than a slip, so the wind is important. There is plenty of clearance, but our slip is between two 50 footers. Ours is the trawler in the middle of the photo below.

A cleat is an obvious and quick to explain landing point for that just the right length for our slip line, but a hawse pipe cleat isn’t. There have been some good suggestions that I intend to try as adding new cleats is not as clear as I had hoped.