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Old 01-28-2018, 03:37 PM   #81
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On the topic of sales as a measure of value...was Andy Warhol a great artist, or was he a great marketer who's work is artificially inflated? I'll go with the second option

https://www.economist.com/blogs/pros...rary_art_sales
But does it matter? The value is still there, his prices at auction are going up, not down. If you own a Wharhol because you thought it was a good investment, it is! And if you own one because the artistic statement speaks to you then it does! Everyone wins.......
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Old 01-28-2018, 04:23 PM   #82
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Build it and they will come???
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Old 01-28-2018, 04:24 PM   #83
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But does it matter? The value is still there, his prices at auction are going up, not down. If you own a Wharhol because you thought it was a good investment, it is! And if you own one because the artistic statement speaks to you then it does! Everyone wins.......
Yup, it matters to me. I was in art school in the early eighties and didn’t like what happened in the art world when stock market investors entered the scene. It changed things for the worse, in my opinion.

In Warhol’s case a couple investors started bidding wars to artificially drive up prices, putting an inflated “value” on the work which they could cash in on later. Aren’t there rules against that sort of thing in the stock market? What makes it illegal one place and acceptable in another?
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Old 01-28-2018, 04:49 PM   #84
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Nice anecdote about the old days of the art business, but it doesn't have anything to do with the current value of his work. If the value was simply from being "pumped" forty years ago, it would have crashed long ago. If your point is that the art world is a cut throat place with ethical standards lower than most bankers, so what else is new......

I wonder if the kids in art school in Florence resented what happened when those greedy Medicis entered the scene and changed things for the worse?
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Old 01-28-2018, 04:57 PM   #85
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Yup, it matters to me. I was in art school in the early eighties and didn’t like what happened in the art world when stock market investors entered the scene. It changed things for the worse, in my opinion.

In Warhol’s case a couple investors started bidding wars to artificially drive up prices, putting an inflated “value” on the work which they could cash in on later. Aren’t there rules against that sort of thing in the stock market? What makes it illegal one place and acceptable in another?
The couple of investors can’t dictate the market. If no one else would pay the higher prices, then those investors are left holding the bag or, in this case an “overpriced” Warhol that they can’t get their money out of. Art and stocks are worth what buyers will pay and nothing else. And for those reasons, it is not illegal to overpay in either the art market or stock market, regardless of your motivations.
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Old 01-28-2018, 05:05 PM   #86
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Nice anecdote about the old days of the art business, but it doesn't have anything to do with the current value of his work. If the value was simply from being "pumped" forty years ago, it would have crashed long ago. If your point is that the art world is a cut throat place with ethical standards lower than most bankers, so what else is new......

I wonder if the kids in art school in Florence resented what happened when those greedy Medicis entered the scene and changed things for the worse?
Same players are still at it and now the auction houses have bellied up to the trough as described in the article above.

And ever so was the gulf between artists and (most) gallery owners, and what works of personal expression would have been created if so much energy wasn’t taken up by satisfying patrons...we’ll never know.
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Old 01-28-2018, 05:21 PM   #87
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Same players are still at it and now the auction houses have bellied up to the trough as described in the article above.

And ever so was the gulf between artists and (most) gallery owners, and what works of personal expression would have been created if so much energy wasn’t taken up by satisfying patrons...we’ll never know.
We (sometimes us specifically but mostly our company, not us) buy and sell a lot of art. The artists have to satisfy our patrons. Otherwise we don't buy. We visit small galleries everywhere we travel and as we look, we have two things in mind. Would we like it in our house? Could we sell it at a profit?

There are many varied tastes, but the small artist who ignores what is marketable is very unsuccessful. The best is when the artist is able to paint what they love and it's also popular with the buying public. Most artists have identified a demographic that their art appeals too. It's a fun world with wonderful people you meet in it. Not the big dollar artists, but some very good ones. We were just in Key West and did some purchasing, but there was one gallery especially with very high dollar art based on the artist's reputation. We knew nothing about that world of art so did not get involved.

To me, art is a form of communication. While an artist can put their feelings on canvas, I still find it a bit empty if they don't touch some others with it, and that's buyers. To me, they've failed to capture their feelings if no one else can look and feel it too. One artist we spent a little time with had gone wild painting since Irma. One reason was the need for income and a period without it. However, it was also a great release for her feelings. There were two distinct groupings. One was anger and sadness and depicted the aftermath. The other was hope and happiness and depicted the rebuilding under way. All were beautiful and would appeal to a lot of buyers.
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Old 01-28-2018, 06:16 PM   #88
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There is a TruTV series called "Adam Ruins Everything" One episode was

It's an interesting, if somewhat cynical, perspective. I believe that it deals with the higher end of the art market. Pretty similar to the Economist article cited earlier.

Although I seldom buy anything, and I could never do it from a business perspective, I do enjoy visiting smaller galleries when I travel.

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Old 01-28-2018, 06:34 PM   #89
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There is a TruTV series called "Adam Ruins Everything" One episode was

It's an interesting, if somewhat cynical, perspective. I believe that it deals with the higher end of the art market. Pretty similar to the Economist article cited earlier.

Although I seldom buy anything, and I could never do it from a business perspective, I do enjoy visiting smaller galleries when I travel.

Jim
There are many things bought and sold as investments where value is hard to understand. Start with the stock market and companies that have never made a dollar selling for billions. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and that applies to investments too. Some invest speculatively and based on anticipation of the item or market while others invest because they like the value of the item itself, not it's potential market value.
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Old 01-28-2018, 07:20 PM   #90
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Didn't watch the video, but familiar with the podcast.

Art value in that league is often just tax avoidance and money laundering. A completely portable and unregulated asset. Most of it is sitting "in transit" in a freeport warehouse in a Germanic speaking country.

That Chinese guy who bought the painting with American Express was pure genius.
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Old 01-28-2018, 07:53 PM   #91
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This one just dropped the price again...
2006 Bruce Roberts Long Range Cruiser 650 Power Boat For Sale -

Whole lot of boat for the price IMHO.
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