Very basic and stoopit questions about costs...

[Art]

September 2008 [i.e. "The Great Recession"] we purchased a 1977 great condition [rebuilt engines and trany, refurbished interior, shined exterior, full bottom/shaft/prop jobs etc.] top of the line build-out 34' Tollycraft Tri Cabin... at a fair price.

April 2009 we moved her from SF Bay saltwater into SF Delta freshwater... and... docked her under a covered berth; where she has remained protected from weather effects for 12 yrs. 100 miles door to door from our house. We get to visit and go out in her many times a year for long weekends and holiday seasons.

Because of our Tolly's initial really-good condition at date of purchase, fact that her berth is well covered, and that she's in 100% fresh water... well... we experience little costs atop of insurance, dock-fee and fuel. Combined, that annually runs approx $6,600.

Although I'm currently home without our consistently reordered Log book, off the top of my clear memory, I can say there is seldom a year we spend any money for hired help on the boat. I'd say that in each of 12 years total costs [including what I diy accomplish] amounts to $400 +/- per year. That makes cost for keeping and using our boat about $7k annually.

Do Note: We don't keep our Tolly heavy seas ocean ready, we do keep her SF Delta gentle seas play time ready. We also do not keep her with full exterior make up and lipstick on for super pretty showing... again I'll say... we keep her SF Delta play time ready. She's in overall good condition. And, when we decide to sell we will get her made up pretty with lipstick applied and systems in top working order.

YRMV!

 

[68camaro]

Good thread

This is excellent thread that should be pinned to top, each post had great info and in totality is perfect for newbe looking at cost to own/operate a boat.

We HAVE the dough to fix stuff. BUT that doesn't automatically eviscerate the angst! We have the dough because we were cautious and conscious as well as conscientious for years. And you don't instantly LOSE those traits even if the $$ have adequately accumulated.

I spend a lot of time thinking about this. We can afford the purchase price of a new or used boat much bigger and glitzery than we would ever need, but as Bill brings up, will the mental aspect of paying the operating and maintenance costs eat away at us because we have spent our whole life living well below our means and accumulating assets so we could retire how and when we want. It's not we are cheap but, it's just we are content with lifestyle and found no need to keep moving it up as income/NW increased.

So I guess, "SoWhat" sums it up, In order to not fret over the expenses we just need to realize its a luxury item and pay to play.

It's a luxury item and I have no intention of stressing out over costs. It's pay to play.

I guess we can also look at it like our second home, do we need it, no, but its nice to have so we just call the expense a "wealth tax"...LOL

 

[psneeld]

Here was my problem....got near the top of the heap and family medical and discourse put me in front of a bankruptcy lawyer.


Fortunately, me nest egg was still safe and I left without filing and bought the $60,000 dollar trawler to live on. At the time it was the only one (with liveaboard layout I could live with) I could afford that could get underway without a long yard period.


For the last 10 years I have lived aboard and struggled to snowbird while rebuilding from keel to mast. Just abut every inch of systems has been replaced or had a major repair. Easily $30,000 in materials and misc.....and about $45000 in saved labor because I did it myself.


I have been frugal my whole life too...you don't get far on a serviceman's salary without careful financials. And now that I am back pretty good (last 5 years market has helped a lot)...it would be easy to start upgrading.



My point...it took 10 years of cruising on a shoestring (because I had to) to get where now I can do it better than "good enough". If I had a cushion all those years...not sure where the money would have gone...to operating and not sweating it, to upgrades at a higher standard, or a little of both and enjoying more of life when I got to new places but was broke enough to be very limited on outside activities.


I would say the number #1 underestimation for the average boater is operating expense.


I have always kidded with boaters that I would make a lousy broker because my mantra is fall in love with a certain model or size...then buy one size smaller as unless retired or living aboard.... you never use a boat like you planned (even then) and use the extra money on good gear and operating it.

 

[AlanT]

Yes.

+1

I don't know about every year, but if your purchase is at least 5-10 years old or older then you should plan to spend 1/10th of that sum ($50k in your example) each year for the first couple of years as you discover the deferred maintenance that did not crop up in the pre-purchase survey.

In my case (I'm in year 2), major items: Replaced Espar Hydronic Heat furnace, Autopilot pump, Various Bilge/Sump pumps, Dishwasher!, Stabilizer service, Replace all forward facing windows (which did not leak on purchase, due to temporary sealant having been used to cover up the problem), Electronics upgrades, Canvas.
~A

 

[Art]

Then on the other hand...

You can diligently look for and locate a "well" used boat that was "well" cared for and is already in "well" positioned/long-lasting condition. In other words; a boat that will not eat you alive for repairs and refits after purchase. This is how [in the "condition of"] I purchase my used boats, RV's, cars, trucks, buildings etc.

To do so... IMO... a person simply needs to open their eyes, ears and minds to what "condition" an item of purchase potential is actually in before purchasing. In other words: Do your own inspections before, during and after hired inspectors do theirs for you. One way to put it: Know the available purchase product inside and out before consummating any deal... i.e., do your own in-depth research!

In addition to the above... I am a firm believer in and solidly practice the art of "horse trading". "Horse Trading": Is an idiom used to depict/describe sell/purchase/trade negotiations, especially where difficult terms and positions may involve a lot of interactive compromise.

And, two of the the most important "horse trade" traits/laws that must always be followed [kept at top level of acuity] while negotiating any type of buy/sell/trade deal:

1. During purchase, sale or trade - Never be afraid to walk away from any deal at any time you feel the deal's portions will not or may not come out in your favor.

2. During purchase or trade - Never fall in love with any object or portion of a deal before that deal is closed and the object is fully owned by you.

Go Forth and Prosper!!

 

[Group9]

We have twin exposed props on our boat, and I guess my biggest fear, is hitting something and wrecking those with the associated costs (although we do have a spare set of props already).

But, a friend had an accident where he mangled his running gear, and rudders, and before it was all done, he had dropped $30,000. It killed a lot of his boating joy, and he sold the boat a year later, and just got out of boating. He just had liability insurance.

Our insurance would take some of that bite out, but not all of it.

 

[AlanT]

But, a friend had an accident where he mangled his running gear, and rudders, and before it was all done, he had dropped $30,000. It killed a lot of his boating joy, and he sold the boat a year later, and just got out of boating. He just had liability insurance.

.

That is truly sad. But it is exactly what insurance is designed for. If one has insurance with an appropriate deductible (ie: one that you can afford to assume and continue boating), then this should not happen. If you can't then all bets are off.
~A

 

[rwidman]

If you buy a new boat, your repair budget should be close to zero. Buy a thirty year old boat and your repair budget may be more than the price of the boat. That 10% "rule of thumb" is BS, just something some writer made up years ago.

Your costs go up with the size and complexity of the boat. Docking is usually charged by the foot. Fuel costs are related to the size of the boat and the speed that you operate the boat. Slow down for economy.

Insurance is partly based on the value of the boat, but also on the liability risk you are comfortable with.

So let's make a WAG:

Insurance, $2K per year.
Dockage, $8K per year.
Hauling and bottom paint, $4K every three years.
Operation and scheduled maintenance, $2 per mile travelled.

And BTW: Many folks talk about saving money by doing maintenance, repairs and upgrades themselves. While this sounds like they are saving money and they may be saving some money, if you have skills in a field, you may be better off working in the field you are skilled in and paying someone else to work on your boat.

Also, many times, the work you need to do on the boat is beyond your skill and experience level. You may cause more problems than you fix.

Most of us can manage changing our own oil, but how many of us can rebuild a diesel injector pump? How many of us can wire in an inverter without jeopardizing the safety of ourselves and our passengers?

We have to know and recognize our abilities and limits.

 

[SteveK]

rwidman
Hauling and bottom paint, $4K every three years.

Are you using a diver to clean bottom and check zincs in between

 

[Bacchus]

I dont believe there is a % or even a tight % range that applies to most / many boats. IMO you are better looking at it on a case by case and develop a SWAG budget that includes some unknown item $ and I think you will be closer than any "rule of thumb"
Even new boats take $ to personalize to suit your needs. I think there will be a year or two where even a new boat will demand some investment to make it work for you. Even new boats aren't "turnkey"

 

[rwidman]

rwidman
Hauling and bottom paint, $4K every three years.

Are you using a diver to clean bottom and check zincs in between

Yes I am. That is not included in the above figure, but of course he didn't ask.

The need for divers and anode replacement will vary widely with where the boat is used.

 

[Group9]

For those that think new boats are immune to breaking down. When I lived in Florida, I got transferred to Mississippi and needed to move my 15 year old boat to Mississippi. I asked my harbormaster, who with his wife had delivered boats for twenty years, if I should worry about my boat breaking down on that trip.

His quote, which I will never forget, was, "I have been delivering boats for twenty years. And, one thing I have learned, is that you can be delivering a fifteen or twenty year old piece of crap, or a million dollar yacht right out of the factory, and your chances of breaking down on the trip, are just about the same."

 

[psneeld]

For those that think new boats are immune to breaking down. When I lived in Florida, I got transferred to Mississippi and needed to move my 15 year old boat to Mississippi. I asked my harbormaster, who with his wife had delivered boats for twenty years, if I should worry about my boat breaking down on that trip.

His quote, which I will never forget, was, "I have been delivering boats for twenty years. And, one thing I have learned, is that you can be delivering a fifteen or twenty year old piece of crap, or a million dollar yacht right out of the factory, and your chances of breaking down on the trip, are just about the same."

I agree with that guy....for 6 years had the same experience as a delivery captain and again for 14 years towing new boats as an assistance tower.

 

[Gdavid]

Many of the most reasonable and well thought out questions asked by newcomers on this forum are self labeled as "stupid questions". There is nothing stupid at all about researching the full cost of ownership prior to jumping in. People open to advice and willing to prepare are generally successful at whatever they put their mind to.

On the other end of the spectrum there are newcomers who ask a legitimate question and then proceed to argue with everyone when they don't like the answer.

 

[ThatBeardedFella]

Initial costs spreadsheet

There is nothing stupid at all about researching the full cost of ownership prior to jumping in.

I'm in the process of researching for my first boat; although I grew up on large boats on the Great Lakes and in Southern Florida, this will be the first time the deed is in my name. In addition to figuring out costs of ownership, I'm trying to get a handle on the costs baked into the initial purchase, so I can more realistically budget and avoid surprise fees etc.

I've found spreadsheets that buyers use to compare boats head-to-head, but what I think would really help me is a spreadsheet that helps me lay out the itemized costs of the initial purchase. I don't know what I don't know, so I kinda feel like I'm flying blind here. I'd ask a broker for some help, but truth be told, I can't trust they wouldn't take advantage of my ignorance, given their profit motive.

Has anyone built out an Excel or Google spreadsheet for this purpose that I could use as a template?

 

[Art]

I'm in the process of researching for my first boat; although I grew up on large boats on the Great Lakes and in Southern Florida, this will be the first time the deed is in my name. In addition to figuring out costs of ownership, I'm trying to get a handle on the costs baked into the initial purchase, so I can more realistically budget and avoid surprise fees etc.

I've found spreadsheets that buyers use to compare boats head-to-head, but what I think would really help me is a spreadsheet that helps me lay out the itemized costs of the initial purchase. I don't know what I don't know, so I kinda feel like I'm flying blind here. I'd ask a broker for some help, but truth be told, I can't trust they wouldn't take advantage of my ignorance, given their profit motive.

Has anyone built out an Excel or Google spreadsheet for this purpose that I could use as a template?

Fella

You mention - "I grew up on large boats..." Please clarify. We also "... don't know what we don't know..." Regarding your already learned "things" [memories/education] about boats; as well as what years of your long ago [regarding your lifetime] experience with boats.

- Sail boats. power boats - or combination thereof?

- Single cabin, dual cabin, multi cabin... motor sailor... gas or diesel... twins or single engine??

- Size of "... large boats..." you mention "I grew up on"? 40', 60', 100'... or?

- If power boat... hull design? e.g., planing, semi displacement, displacement?

- New boats? / a few years old boats?? / very old boats???

- Wood, fiberglass, steel, aluminum, ferrocement or... ???

- And - importantly: What size, type, style, age, price range boat are you interested in purchasing and then owning for what period of time?

Knowing those seven basics would give better capability to design a rudimentary proforma.

In reality... factors needing to be addressed when buying a boat ain't rocket science. But - depending on numerous factors of what you seek to find and own there are several nuanced-details that take effect in the making and baking of the "deal" for any boat!

Looking forward to learn more about your boat education background and current boat ownership needs/desires.

 

[Portage_Bay]

I'm in the process of researching for my first boat; although I grew up on large boats on the Great Lakes and in Southern Florida, this will be the first time the deed is in my name. In addition to figuring out costs of ownership, I'm trying to get a handle on the costs baked into the initial purchase, so I can more realistically budget and avoid surprise fees etc.



I've found spreadsheets that buyers use to compare boats head-to-head, but what I think would really help me is a spreadsheet that helps me lay out the itemized costs of the initial purchase. I don't know what I don't know, so I kinda feel like I'm flying blind here. I'd ask a broker for some help, but truth be told, I can't trust they wouldn't take advantage of my ignorance, given their profit motive.



Has anyone built out an Excel or Google spreadsheet for this purpose that I could use as a template?

My thoughts on intial purchase costs in the US, others may add more

Required:
Insurance. Best to get this sorted first, if you can't insure it don't buy it.
Purchase price. This may change from asking price after survey.
Local taxes. Most areas will collect sales tax.
State registration. Many stated require registration even for documented vessels.
Documentation. If the boat is documented and you wish to keep it documented. This is the fee charged by the USCG.

Optional. Yet almost necessary:
Hull and condition survey. This will likely be required to get insurance.
Haul out for survey.
Engine and mechanical survey.
Oil samples.
Closing costs. IMO best to use a marine documentation and escrow company to keep it all straight.

Optional. Depending upon the purchase situation.
Training if the insurance underwriter requires or the purchaser wants training.
Travel and housing for initial inspection, surveys and negotiations. If the boat is beyond reasonable driving distance.
Transport. If the boat is more than a day's travel away by water. This may include transport by truck or ship which will require a separate insurance coverage. Or fuel and supplies if moved on her own bottom. Perhaps professional crew if the purchaser is unable to make the delivery for any reason.

 

[Bryant]

Boat costs

I'm in the process of researching for my first boat; although I grew up on large boats on the Great Lakes and in Southern Florida, this will be the first time the deed is in my name. In addition to figuring out costs of ownership, I'm trying to get a handle on the costs baked into the initial purchase, so I can more realistically budget and avoid surprise fees etc.

I've found spreadsheets that buyers use to compare boats head-to-head, but what I think would really help me is a spreadsheet that helps me lay out the itemized costs of the initial purchase. I don't know what I don't know, so I kinda feel like I'm flying blind here. I'd ask a broker for some help, but truth be told, I can't trust they wouldn't take advantage of my ignorance, given their profit motive.


Has anyone built out an Excel or Google spreadsheet for this purpose that I could use as a template?

Way more info is needed but based upon what you’ve said, I’ll throw in my two cents worth.
Insurance companies will want to know what size boats you have owned. If you’ve never owned a boat there is going to be a limitation on the size of your first boat that they will insure for you to operate. Having said that, a haul out for a 36’ boat is about $350. Survey is $750. I just bought $800 of new dock lines, $900 in fenders. A West Marine hard dinghy is $900. Suzuki motor $750. You will spend at least 10% of the value of the boat annually to own, operate and maintain it. This doesn’t include unforeseen expenses that pop up. If you are refurbishing a boat you can add those expenses to that figure.
If you are having the boat delivered to you, figure about $500/day for a captain and deckhand. You will pay sales tax of 8.5% in Washington State (I believe) and you’ll have to register it annually and pay documentation fees if it’s documented.

 

[alormaria]

People with $500K boats do very little of their own maintenance.

 

[ThatBeardedFella]

clarifications

Please clarify...

I'm talking early childhood through middle-age (I'm 42 now), I've been boater-adjacent through family members my whole life. Essentially, I'm not completely unfamiliar, but there's a gulf of knowledge between me and what I need to know to be a competent and proficient owner. I'd reach out to family for insight, but people die and families "break."

- My experience is with powerboats, aside from a recreational sailing class
- Dual cabin, twin diesels
- By "large boats" I mean larger than weekend warrior ski boats, specifically professional sportfishers, in addition to aforementioned toys. My grandfather ran a deepsea fishing charter in FL and my father also ran a fishing charter on the Great Lakes, both aboard 35-45ft sportfishers. My experience is basically limited to minor assistance and an early development of sea legs while curiously studying captains' procedures, communications, navigation etc. When it comes to the particulars of ownership and upkeep, I'm unfamiliar. My experience has always been focused on actually using the boats.
- Planing hulls, exclusively
- Boats aged between new and ~15 years with professionally maintained service
- Fiberglass
- What size, type, style, age, price range boat are you interested in purchasing and then owning for what period of time?

35-50ft, (ideally) fiberglass, trawler or cruiser (for full-time liveaboard), 15-40 years old, under $100k, minimum 5 years​

I hope that helps paint a picture of where I'm coming from. Thanks for helping me parse those details.

 

[ThatBeardedFella]

Way more info is needed

Can you walk me through what additional information is needed? Did I cover the gaps you had in mind with my previous reply?

 

[High Wire]

You are going to need to dock it somewhere unless it's trailerable. Some areas have several year waiting lists to sky high rental costs.

 

[Art]

I'm talking early childhood through middle-age (I'm 42 now), I've been boater-adjacent through family members my whole life. Essentially, I'm not completely unfamiliar, but there's a gulf of knowledge between me and what I need to know to be a competent and proficient owner. I'd reach out to family for insight, but people die and families "break."

- My experience is with powerboats, aside from a recreational sailing class
- Dual cabin, twin diesels
- By "large boats" I mean larger than weekend warrior ski boats, again professional sportfishers, in addition to aforementioned toys. My grandfather ran a deepsea fishing charter in FL and my father also ran a fishing charter on the Great Lakes, both aboard 35-45ft sportfishers. My experience is basically limited to minor assistance and an early development of sea legs while curiously studying captains' procedures etc.
- Planing hulls, exclusively
- Boats aged between new and ~15 years with professionally maintained service
- Fiberglass
- What size, type, style, age, price range boat are you interested in purchasing and then owning for what period of time?

35-50ft, (ideally) fiberglass, trawler or cruiser (for full-time liveaboard), 15-40 years old, under $100k, minimum 5 years​

I hope that helps paint a picture of where I'm coming from. Thanks for helping me parse those details.

Fella - These two items stick out in your post above [I bolded then up there]

1. "My experience is basically limited to minor assistance and an early development of sea legs while curiously studying captains' procedures etc"

Sounds as though you do not have much hands-on experience for either repair/maintenance boat-needs nor for piloting a boat. Those two factors may stumble you in more ways than one for successful boat purchasing and then long term ownership.

2. "Boats aged between new and ~15 years with professionally maintained service."

If you have the $$$ to always employ professionals for boat maintenance/repair needs then your own "minor assistance" mentioned in #1 can be overcome. The need to become a proficient pilot can be taught to you by other boat pilots.

And, the $100K number you mention could be enough... if you are lucky...

 

[FlyWright]

There are too many variables in the cost equation to mention, let alone quantify in a meaningful spreadsheet to compare vessels.

As a small example, my buddy has a GB42 with twin Cat 3208s. I have a 34 Californian LRC with twin Perkins 4.236s. We each needed to replace mixing elbows. We each did our own work with help from buddies so there were no labor costs involved.

His V8s requires 2 elbows each engine at ~$1.2K each with spray bars and new hardware. My inline 4s need a single elbow each engine at ~$500.

His boat: $4800
My boat: $1000

IMO, the biggest variable in estimating costs is "who's doin' the work"? Those who are most mechanically inclined are at a distinct cost advantage over those who pay others to do the work.

On some of my jobs, the food and drink bill was the only labor costs involved and, fortunately, none of my friends eat and drink a lot...except for me!

 

[ofer]

My thoughts on intial purchase costs in the US, others may add more
Required:
Insurance. Best to get this sorted first, if you can't insure it don't buy it.
.

optional

 

[Bryant]

New boat

Can you walk me through what additional information is needed? Did I cover the gaps you had in mind with my previous reply?

You answered most of my questions. I think you are going to have difficulty in obtaining insurance. Contact Geico and get a quote on a 36 foot boat and see if they will insure you. Pick any 36’ trawler.
Also, you might want to try something smaller than 35 to get your feet wet in ownership/operation. The learning curve will be steep.
My earlier quote of 10% of the boat’s value in annual cost assumes you are paying cash up front. If you are financing then add your monthly payment to the earlier figure.
Many ins companies won’t insure 40 year old boats. Also, a 40 year old boat is going to be a costly handful to own and maintain unless it’s been refurbished and then it’s going to probably be over your $100k limit. Finding a 15 year old 35’ Trawler for $100k may prove to be difficult.
I would strongly suggest you look at a 25’ or 27’ Ranger Tug or a Camano Troll 30 for your 1st boat. If it’s something you enjoy, they would be easy to sell and you can move up.
Check out Oak Harbor Marina on Whidbey Island. It’s a great marina. I used it for 4 years.
Good luck.

 

[ThatBeardedFella]

Sounds as though you do not have much hands-on experience for either repair/maintenance boat-needs nor for piloting a boat. Those two factors may stumble you in more ways than one for successful boat purchasing and then long term ownership.

This is precisely the reason why I'm here.

FWIW, it's my intention to pursue a Captain's license and acquire requisite maintenance skills when the time comes. Everyone starts somewhere. But that's besides the point; what I was specifically asking about was the itemized costs that are baked into the purchase of a boat, because those aren't readily obvious to a new buyer.

 

[ThatBeardedFella]

Pick any 36’ trawler.
Also, you might want to try something smaller than 35 to get your feet wet in ownership/operation. The learning curve will be steep.

I've actually got my eye on a 34ft trawler. It'll make a cozy liveaboard, but it comes with a 47ft slip, which I think I could grow into with time and experience.

Thanks for the insights!

 

[ThatBeardedFella]

There are too many variables in the cost equation to mention, let alone quantify in a meaningful spreadsheet to compare vessels.

You're absolutely right. I don't expect anyone else to have hard numbers on costs, I just wanted to make sure I have the different categories of costs for the initial purchase laid out... which would give me something concrete to bird-dog on my own, for my unique situation. Still, your example of maintenance costs is sobering.

Seeing how much replacing mixing elbows can vary from one boat to another, do you have any tips that would help me avoid setting myself up for expensive maintenance? I suspect there are premium manufacturers that tend to more costly to keep up compared to other brands?

I appreciate your feedback!

 

[BruceK]

...
Seeing how much replacing mixing elbows can vary from one boat to another, do you have any tips that would help me avoid setting myself up for expensive maintenance? I suspect there are premium manufacturers that tend to more costly to keep up compared to other brands?...

Mixer elbows, cast iron, for Ford Lehmans are probably still sub $200. S/steel ceramic coated aftermarket elbows for my current Cummins 210s were about $2.5K AUD each, do the conversion, probably cheaper either way there. To limit engine maintenance costs, Lehman is a good way to go,(maybe Perkins too, ask Flywright),an older 34ft trawler might very well come with Lehman(s).
With good intentions 15 years ago, I set up a a/c to record my boat expenses, and never wrote anything in it. Not because there were no expenses, just didn`t want to see it in black & white.