Sea trials

[Codger2]

I would suggest that if you really want to sell your boat, appoint a broker on an introduction basis only and show the buyer through yourself. You know your boat better than any one else.

I'm certainly not against using a broker but I agree whole heartedly with Andy's comment. Most brokers I've dealt with really don't know all that much about what they are selling. Not their fault....they just are not familiar with all the numerous brands of boats! If you can find a broker who has intimate knowledge of your particular model then by all means sign him up! If you can't find one, subscribe to Andy's theory.

 

[mvweebles]

I dunno. I may know my boat better than anyone else, but a decent broker will know buyers better than me and have talked with them to understand what they are looking for and can highlight my boats attributes to match. I'm guessing most sellers go on and on about stuff the buyer has little interest in. I either know the boat and want to do some rooting around on my own, or I haven't made a decision yet and want to tell the broker my honest feedback so he can suggest something else. Or I simply don't like the boat and know in 5-minutes its time to move on. In all instances, having the seller around is a hindrance. A good FSBO seller will say "I'm gonna grab a cup of coffee. Feel free to hang out - happy to answer any questions when I get back. Feel free to leave early if you need to run".

 

[syjos]

Your a brave man Syjos! ...Site un seen...? I struggling spending $50 bucks on amazon, because I can’t touch it!

I forgot to mention that the Mainship, Sandpiper and the Pontiac were all one owner.

I only buy from original owners.

 

[boatpoker]

Never made sense to me to layout deposit money without seeing the engines run. You wouldn't accept that on a used car would you ?

Quite a few times I've had to walk from a cancelled survey (paid half the full survey rate) because they couldn't even start it to get to the travel lift. Either that or the client had to pay me for a second trip to complete the survey.

 

[Okydowky]

Ok if this is not appropriate for this tread send me packing and I will start a new one! Don’t mean to highjack....

Met with the owners today on the 36’ Fu Hwa Trawler, spent a 1/2 hr with him going through a few systems and how he wants boat shut down when we leave. While his wife made the bed with fresh linens and laid out towels so we can shower in the morning, oh and a fresh pound of coffee with 2 cups beside the coffee maker. Then threw me the keys and said locker up when we are done in 3 days, and drop the keys off on our way home.

Lol still shaking my head in a confused way that I have his boat..

Really want everyone’s honest opinion here, I have 3 days to decide and crawl around the boat with my HD borescope 32’ led camera.

Now I have never been on a Trawler, so my findings are just a comparison from my current boat to this ones layout.

Boat seems very unstable when I climb over the side and took quite awhile to calm down. With my wife and I moving around the cabin, we felt a lot of movement.

Not that easy to quickly get in and out of side doors, my Dad is a senior with decent mobility and I watched him try to get in and out, he had a tough time.

I found the visibility good from the lower helm from being seated!

The aft bed is something else, more drawers than an average walk-in closet, stand up headroom and large shower...

The storage in and out of this boat is mind boggling..

Tomorrow it’s down in to the ER

Thank you
Troy

 

[DennisB1]

Spend a day looking all over the Vessel before a survey

I would recommend spending a good amount of time looking at everything in the boat from the bilge to the fly bridge before you have the surveyor day. Develop a list of questions and observations. Is the boat something that you feel confident that you can maintain and handle. You can't operate anything but at least you get to understand a little more of what you may buy if you get positive feed back from your surveyor after a haul out and sea trail. Good luck.

 

[Andy G]

Ok if this is not appropriate for this tread send me packing and I will start a new one! Don’t mean to highjack....


Good heavens Mr Okydowky, you can't go butting in with a real life question..... we are all far too busy telling each other the right way to do things! sub titled'not on my boat you won't'

However,I am amazed to read that an owner, whom you do not seem to have met before, allows you to stay on his boat for three days, gets his wife to make up your bed, with fresh towels to boot, and then grinds the coffee beans for a perfect cuppa!(yes, i know you didn't say he actually ground the beans, poetic licence)

Now I am a pretty relaxed bloke, however this is a different league entirely. You are obviously dealing with a most uncommonly delightful old fashioned couple, or the most artful & practiced con men out there.

Back to your question. On the face of it there is no reason why a 36' semi displacement vessel should not be reasonably stable at the dock. I am wondering what your previous experience with boats is.

As you have the luxury of three days to get used to the boat, see how you feel then. You may get used to the movement and your dad may also get used to the restricted passageways that a 36' entails.

Looking forward to you next post to tell us all how you went.

Cheers,

Andy

 

[boatpoker]

Ok if this is not appropriate for this tread send me packing and I will start a new one! Don’t mean to highjack....

Met with the owners today on the 36’ Fu Hwa Trawler, spent a 1/2 hr with him going through a few systems and how he wants boat shut down when we leave. While his wife made the bed with fresh linens and laid out towels so we can shower in the morning, oh and a fresh pound of coffee with 2 cups beside the coffee maker. Then threw me the keys and said locker up when we are done in 3 days, and drop the keys off on our way home.

Lol still shaking my head in a confused way that I have his boat..

Really want everyone’s honest opinion here, I have 3 days to decide and crawl around the boat with my HD borescope 32’ led camera.

Now I have never been on a Trawler, so my findings are just a comparison from my current boat to this ones layout.

Boat seems very unstable when I climb over the side and took quite awhile to calm down. With my wife and I moving around the cabin, we felt a lot of movement.

Not that easy to quickly get in and out of side doors, my Dad is a senior with decent mobility and I watched him try to get in and out, he had a tough time.

I found the visibility good from the lower helm from being seated!

The aft bed is something else, more drawers than an average walk-in closet, stand up headroom and large shower...

The storage in and out of this boat is mind boggling..

Tomorrow it’s down in to the ER

Thank you
Troy

This may help with your inspection .....
Marine Survey 101, pre-survey inspection

 

[Slowmo]

Luckily our boat was stored on the hard so the surveyor could do the out of water part separately from the sea trial. On the day of the sea trial we had the broker, surveyor, and mechanic. Unfortunately we also had the owner and his wife. My recommendation is NOT to permit the owner to come along unless you want him. Our PO interfered with the surveyor and argued with everything he noticed. His wife had Alzheimers (unfortunately which is why they were selling) but that resulted in my wife 'baby sitting' rather than assessing the boat. Also, be aware the surveyor will probably be looking at the big systems, but they generally do a quick test on things like the water system, entertainment etc. We found the TV/DVD did power up but didn't actually play. Not a big deal for me since I just removed it.

We were out for 2 hours or so in moderate conditions. A few things I recommend which other's don't. First is when you're in a clear fairway, ask to take the helm and see how you like the handling. I've run boats that were a real pain. I was looking for things like tracking, helm response, and turning circle. Second, If I had to do it again I'd listen carefully for noise at rest (like being anchored). After we owned the boat we found it had the dreaded chine slap. I was used to a heavy wood boat which was very quiet, FG is noisy, wish I'd assessed that better. Finally, a good surveyor has a lot of knowledge about problem areas with specific boats and boats in general. Spend time with him to learn. Our surveyor was a licensed captain. He also provided a lot of information on his view of the capability of different boats. In our case he reassured us that the particular brand we were looking at were exceptionally good in heavy weather and said some boats that people thought were good really were not (won't mention brands). I guess he'd found some scary experiences up and down the west coast. In the end he and the mechanic saved us far more than he cost. As a result of the survey we reduced our offer substantially due to a number of maintenance items. If I had to do it again I would have cut the offer even more though since you always find things. The surveyor said that, they can't find everything an on an older boat there WILL be hidden things that you find.

 

[boatpoker]

My recommendation is NOT to permit the owner to come along unless you want him. Our PO interfered with the surveyor and argued with everything he noticed.

When I'm surveying and the owner insists on being present the first thing I do is politely inform that I will not discuss the boat with him but only with my client and not in the owners presence. I've seen some nasty ones.

 

[Njlarry]

Thanks to everyone for your sage advice.
To answer your question Peter number one contender is 2005 Beneteau Swift 42. I feel very comfortable with my current 21 hp 3 cylinder Universal but those 375 hp giants are a bit intimidating.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

Hello all. Currently a sailboat owner I have been reading this forum and learning while searching for a suitable trawler. We had our present sailboat surveyed when we purchased it but did not sea trial, and had no regrets. However a twin engine power vessel is much more complex and we will want a sea trial but have no idea how to conduct one.
How is one done and what do you look for? Does a surveyor or mechanic go along?
Thank you for any advice.

You almost can't do too much to prepare for this process, and the question you pose is a very good start.

These articles may be helpful.

Pre-Offer evaluation: https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/a-boat-buyers-top-ten-guide-to-a-pre-offer-evaluation-part-i/

Survey: https://www.proptalk.com/selecting-working-marine-surveyor

Sea Trails: https://www.zfmarinepropulsion.com/wp-content/uploads/SeaTrialsProBoat145B.pdf

Engine survey: https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/the-art-of-the-engine-survey/

 

[IraJonesAMS]

Marine Surveyor

As a SAMS AMS#1001 Marine Surveyor with seventeen years behind me I've done more Pre Purchase Condition & Value Surveys than I'd care to admit. Lots of great information has been presented here on the Topic of Marine Surveys. The one thing I'd suggest is obtaining a sample Survey from any Surveyor your considering. If the Surveyor does not want to provide a Sample Survey for a similar vessel then I'd move on to another Surveyor.
Ira Jones AMS#1001 Up State NY

 

[thataway]

A number of excellent points already made.

Surveyor; I prefer that he be NAMS ( NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF MARINE SURVEYORS). I have found these surveyors to be better qualified. I had a very bad experience with a SAMS member, who gave me wrong answers and missed significant issues. ABYC (American Boat and Yacht Council) certification in relevant areas is a plus. As a buyer, I follow the surveyor and ask questions. If there is not a satisfactory explanation, I want to ask the seller (and may not get the truth, but can document that this item was brought up, and not properly answered if issues come up later) (Document with video and note book)

Owner:As a seller I have mixed feelings, and have been aboard for the survey of every boat I have sold. I am there to answer questions and make sure that the boat is operated properly. In most cases I have operated the boat, fully co-operating with the buyer and surveyors. I never argue or interject an opinion. At some point the buyer should spend some significant time with the seller, to go over systems and idiosyncrasies. of that specific boat (see documentation) That should be beyond what is done at survey and sea trial.

Mechanic: Engine specific certified. He may require time before the sea trial to set up his test equipment, especially in more modern and complicated engines. The sea trial on a separate day from the quick haul. (or the haul later in the day, after the sea trial--could be modified depending on the boat and potential issues.)

Documentation: Both as a buyer and seller, I advise the buyer to have capability to record what both the surveyor finds and what the seller / operator knows about all systems aboard. (Example--my current boat has a switch in the ground on the auto pilot--someone thought that was wise. Even though I had obtained all of the info on operation, the seller neglected to tell me that there was this switch and had turned it on before the sea trail.). Photographic documentation and a note book to write down especially important information. In the case where I had an issue with SAMS surveyor, I had photographic evidence that he had missed several major issues with the boat I was buying.

When buying, I always budget 25% of the settled price for upgrades and repairs. Sometimes I am pleasantly surprised...occasionally it is not enough.

I have had brokers start engines, under unusual circumstances such as an estate sale, or where I have know that there was a previous engine issues which should have been repaired. The reason for starting the engine is to be sure that the engine would at least start, the transmission shift before committing to a survey/sea trail. (And putting my 10% down). One boat I purchased had not been run for a significant amount of time. After a quick inspection and we turned the engine over, I had the broker arrange for a diver to have the bottom cleaned, and the fuel to be "polished" as well as a check of the engine by a certified mechanic, before the sea trial, to be sure it was going to be safe to do the sea trial.

 

[BruceK]

Never made sense to me to layout deposit money without seeing the engines run. You wouldn't accept that on a used car would you ?.....

Of course not. It can`t be impossibly hard for a broker to get instructions how to, from an owner who agrees to a broker starting engines. You certainly want to check what causes the boat to fulfill it`s basic purpose, of being a boat mobile under its own power.

 

[syjos]

I can see asking an owner to start engines and other machinery after the offer is accepted and before the surveys. I would recommend asking for a sea trial prior to the survey too. The buyer needs to write it into the offer to purchase. Everything is negotiable. The owner may say no.

But expecting a listing broker to know the ideocycracies of every boat he listed and be able to start it is asking a lot. And a buyers broker, walking onto an unknown boat and be expected to start engines is a stretch.

And as someone mentioned, the owner may not live near the boat and for him to make a trek to the boat to start engines for every looky-loo is counterproductive.

As a seller and boat owner, do I really want the broker turning on batteries, starting the engine, running it, shutting it down, turning the batteries off? Will he forget something, leave something on?

Out of area owner may want seacocks closed and other things shut down in a specific way. And in the PNW, out of area owners usually fill the raw water side of the engine with antifreeze to prevent freezing while away. Will the broker do that after the showing?

You can not compare buying a car to buying a boat. With a car, CarFax will reveal issues and service performed or not. A simple trip to a mechanic or dealer will get the vehicle inspected quickly. The shop will also plug into the OBD and diagnose issues and any fault codes not cleared. The overall condition is evident since there are not that much to examine compared to a boat.

 

[Sailor of Fortune]

I flew fro Boston to Florida to meet broker at a boat that I was interested in. I never even thought to ask if engines would be available to run as a test, I just assumed. He knew my mechanic would be with me. Dry exhaust, keel cooled, boat on the hard. He just ran them for us ... I bought the boat without a sea trial and it worked out.

 

[BandB]

There is another issue with brokers starting engines, Insurance. Something does go wrong and many times the boat would not be insured and he may not have insurance covering it either.

 

[Wayne]

"Lo all, I have only bought 3 " big" boats. First was a wooden 1958 Owens with twin Hercules updraft gas engines - was the Owens "showboat" in the 1958 New York City Boat show. No telling how many owners it had. It essentially had no systems other than a head, a bilge pump and an antique HF radio(!) which was illegal to use, and a crystal controlled vhf. I had a surveyor look at it and he accurately told me about its problems. The engines had badly rusted exhaust manifolds. I could not find any manifolds anywhere, including Boats & Harbors. I ended up getting a fantastic price on twin Crusader gas engines. Prices on new shafts and props were not fantastic. Sold that boat when I bought the 46' sailboat new. It had no interior (I built most of the interior and installed all systems), so no systems to repair. Sold that boat when we bought the Celestial. We were its 3rd owners. We looked at it when the owners were on it. They were very forthcoming, but had only owned it for a short time. They lived off of a slough and thought they would be able to keep it at their dock, but they could only get it in and out at high tide, so they put it up for sale. We asked a friend (a surveyor - Capt. Tom Corley, retired - Master of Unlimited Oceans and Inland Rivers) to go with us and survey the boat. He did and gave us a very complete survey and was onboard when we had the sea trial. One thing he did that has not been mentioned yet is a panic stop. With the owner's permission, he asked me to go down and sit between the two trannies and observe any engine movement or strange noises during the procedure, which was to go from normal cruise RPMs to reverse with only a minimal hesitation between forward and reverse - no change in RPMs. While this is a procedure that you don't want to do on a routine basis, it was a valuable check on the engines, transmissions, etc. They did not move at all - but the boat stopped in about its length, I am told. The boat passed all criteria with flying colors. On haulout, we found blisters on the bottom, which were later repaired, and which the cost to repair was reflected in the final purchase price. All in all, the Celestial was a fantastic boat for us. We remained friends with the sellers for a long time. If I saw a boat FSBO that I wanted, I would not hesitate to look at it and, if interested in buying it, get a surveyor that I trusted to be brutally honest and go from there.

 

[Mako]

One thing he did that has not been mentioned yet is a panic stop. With the owner's permission, he asked me to go down and sit between the two trannies and observe any engine movement or strange noises during the procedure, which was to go from normal cruise RPMs to reverse with only a minimal hesitation between forward and reverse - no change in RPMs.

You shifted the boat from forward to reverse gears while the engine was running at operating speed??

 

[Steve DAntonio]

"Originally Posted by Wayne View Post
One thing he did that has not been mentioned yet is a panic stop. With the owner's permission, he asked me to go down and sit between the two trannies and observe any engine movement or strange noises during the procedure, which was to go from normal cruise RPMs to reverse with only a minimal hesitation between forward and reverse - no change in RPMs."

Maybe I misunderstood this but the surveyor asked you, the buyer, to go below and evaluate engine movement? Why would he expect you to know how to do that? "...observe any engine movement or strange noises during..." As a non-professional how could he expect you to know what's normal and abnormal? Again, maybe I misunderstood.

I do perform reverse testing on sea trial, that involves vigorous shifting from fwd to rev to fwd to rev etc. albeit far from full throttle, while dwelling in neutral for approx 3 seconds, while observing each engine mount through at least one full fwd-rev-fwd evolution. This stresses motor mounts and will show excessive or abnormal movement within the mount flexible component, or between the mount foot and mount foundation, the latter is not unusual, and is an indication of improper fastener shank diameter.

 

[OldDan1943]

On subs, both nuc and diesel boats, there are a number of 'safeties'. One is a vacuum shut down. It is one of those safeties that is not fully tested because it may cause damage to the diesel. The test is quickly concluded if the diesel BEGINS to shut down.
Per the emergency shut down on pleasure boats, it shuts off the air. This can result in damage to the diesel. If you gotta test it, shut the diesel down and visually inspect the damper closing. Once closed, reset the damper and restart the engine. Oh you do know how to reset the damper? LOL

 

[slowgoesit]

You shifted the boat from forward to reverse gears while the engine was running at operating speed??

Yeah, that one got my attention as well! Anyone tried that on my boat would go swimming pretty quick!

 

[Pete Meisinger]

My present boat was on the hard when I bought it. Shrink wrapped.

The owner started the engine and let it warm up on a hose. I was amazed at the easy start and simplcity of starting a winterized diesel. ( I was used to gassers, fresh water cooled.) He just hit the starter and away it went. He said it always started that easy.

I bought it without a survey or sea trial. I asked him to guarantee the engine for a number of hours, he refused saying he had no way of monitoring how I treated the engine once he stepped off the boat. He guaranteed it would start once in the water and that the tranny would work properly. I accepted his reasoning and since he had been honest and upright in every other aspect of the sale, the deal was sealed with a "verbal handshake" over the phone.

It was a great experience, we corresponded for a few years after the sale until he passed away last year. If all sellers were as honest as him I guess you would still need surveys but probably not brokers.

pete

 

[jleonard]

Yeah, that one got my attention as well! Anyone tried that on my boat would go swimming pretty quick!

Agreed.

 

[Trawlerdream]

I have never had a surveyor on any of the boats I have been buying. When it comes to sea trail I always ask the owner to take the engine WOT for 10 minutes. (After it is warm) Then another 10 minutes on 85 %. At WOT it can be hard to distinguish between normal cavitation and other vibrations. Loading the engine gives you answers like is the cooling working, cutless bearings, shaft, propeller problems. If the owner refuses walk away. A sound engine should not have any problems running at WOT.

After pop your head in to the engine room. If there are any leaks, water, fuel, oil it is after a hard workout like this they will be visible.

 

[Wayne]

I didn't perform the procedure - I only observed it, the surveyor did it with the owner's permission. I don't actually know the RPMs that it was done at, but, from what I remember it would probably have been about 1700-1800 RPMs as that was what we cruised at. This was a VERY experienced surveyor - one of the original/charter NAMS/SAMS surveyors. He would never have done it if it would damage a transmission, or engine, or anything. It simply was to see if the engines would move unduly, i.e., worn out engine mounts or improperly secured mounts which would affect shaft alignment. I have seen both on other boats. While this was the biggest boat I ever owned, it certainly was not the biggest boat I worked on. I had worked with Capt. Corley as the owner's maintenance guy while he surveyed the boats. I certainly was qualified to sit and see if the engines moved. At any rate, it did not damage the Celestial's trannies and the engine/engine mounts did not move.
--

 

[BandB]

I do perform reverse testing on sea trial, that involves vigorous shifting from fwd to rev to fwd to rev etc. albeit far from full throttle, while dwelling in neutral for approx 3 seconds, while observing each engine mount through at least one full fwd-rev-fwd evolution. This stresses motor mounts and will show excessive or abnormal movement within the mount flexible component, or between the mount foot and mount foundation, the latter is not unusual, and is an indication of improper fastener shank diameter.

I'm use to seeing this done and also what some call a back down test. In this test you operated at 1000 to 1500 RPM and then go into neutral for three seconds and then into reverse with no throttle to see if the engines stall. Once you see they don't, then you apply throttle in reverse for further testing.

Shifting from forward and reverse to the other in cycles should damage nothing as long as you're dwelling in neutral for three seconds.

I know owners find parts of surveys scary from 10 minutes at WOT to shifting to tight turns to crossing large waves, but you can't test a boat by slowly cruising up the ICW.

While discussing shifting from forward to reverse, I'll point out a test performed on high performance jet boats. It's called an emergency stop test. While running on plane, you ram it into full reverse and bring the boat to a stop. You should stop in less than two boat lengths.

 

[Mako]

Dropping the diverter on a jet boat into the water stream is not the same thing as slamming a tranny into reverse at high engine RPMs.

I would want confirmation from the manufacturer before performing such a maneuver, and even with that, I don’t think I’d allow that if I were a seller.

Gear teeth could be stressed and not even shed a tooth until much later. How about snapping a prop shaft on a high torque engine. Or blowing a gear through the casing.

I’m not one for using scare tactics, but that type of action raises risk levels way too high, IMO.

 

[BandB]

Dropping the diverter on a jet boat into the water stream is not the same thing as slamming a tranny into reverse at high engine RPMs.

I would want confirmation from the manufacturer before performing such a maneuver, and even with that, I don’t think I’d allow that if I were a seller.

Gear teeth could be stressed and not even shed a tooth until much later. How about snapping a prop shaft on a high torque engine. Or blowing a gear through the casing.

I’m not one for using scare tactics, but that type of action raises risk levels way too high, IMO.

Wasn't implying it was, but manufacturers are fine going between forward and reverse with 3 seconds in neutral. We've had new boats surveyed and had it done. However, our surveyor hasn't done at what I'd consider high RPM, but just moderate.

They're not used as scare tactics but owners are often scared by WOT. Yet, it's the only way to know if the boat is reaching appropriate RPM and how it's performing. We do so after any major service but then we periodically do so at other times.