Sea trials

[Mako]

I don’t recall which marine gear it was, but I recall reading a spec where the manufacturer allows gear shifting at 300 rpm above idle. This is helpful when docking. But this is the first time I’m heard of doing such at 1500 rpm or higher. Perhaps it’s acceptable, but still strange to me.

 

[syjos]

If the boat is traveling forward at speed and the transmission is shifted to neutral, wouldn't the propeller still be spinning from the boats forward movement? If that's the case, shifting into reverse after 3 seconds does'nt sound like enough time for the propeller to stop rotating. And reversing the transmission while the prop is still rotating in the other direction seems like a bad idea.

At slow speed, the prop comes to a complete stop quickly between shifts since there is no movement of the boat rotating the prop.

 

[Mako]

Yeah, and I think about the mass of a 5 ft diameter prop, even on a 5” shaft, it could still snap that shaft.

 

[OldDan1943]

Even at idle RPM, I would be hesitant about shifting forward to reverse without 3,4 or 5 seconds assuming it is not an emergency.
Navy steam driven turbines will do a emergency aft to avoid something or maneuvering close quarters, without slowing or stopping the shaft. From the engine room the rumbling does get a bit loud and concerning. But, that's another story.

 

[jleonard]

I'd be comfortable with a 3 second neutral.

 

[OldDan1943]

I'd be comfortable with a 3 second neutral.

In an emergency count really really fast. LOL

 

[Steve DAntonio]

I don’t recall which marine gear it was, but I recall reading a spec where the manufacturer allows gear shifting at 300 rpm above idle. This is helpful when docking. But this is the first time I’m heard of doing such at 1500 rpm or higher. Perhaps it’s acceptable, but still strange to me.

For hydraulic transmissions, there is no issue what so ever shifting from fwd, to neutral to reverse with a short dwell of 2-3 seconds, and even less if necessary. On most electronic shift controls this dwell is built in and adjustable. These transmission use sintered bronze wet clutches that are forgiving of back driving from the prop, it's not as if you are forcing gear teeth to engage. If you were underway and a small boat cut in front of you, or you noticed a swimmer or diver in the water immediately in front of you (last year while cruising in British Columbia a humpback whale cut directly in front of me as I was exiting a narrow channel aboard a 65 foot vessel, I was doing 4-5 knots and shifted into reverse without any delay to avoid hitting her), you'd need to be able to do this. The whale was bubble feeding along a shear cliff face.

High speed and even full throttle shifting is another matter entirely, however, it too is acceptable under the right circumstances. Yachts that are built to certain classification rules such as ABS, must be able to demonstrate a full throttle shift evolution, from fwd to rev. I've performed these and it's...exciting. That's the exception, most vessel will never be operated in this manner.

For all other "normal" cases, when you make this shift the rpm of course needs to be at idle speed, and with a single lever shift that's unavoidable. In the case of a dual lever control it's possible to shift at any rpm, which could be catastrophic. Several years ago I had a client accidentally grab the shift instead of throttle, pulling it back and shifting out of gear at high rpm, realizing what he did he then instinctively pushed the lever back into place, shifting back into fwd, at high rpm. It destroyed the Velvet Drive tranny, although it was able to be rebuilt.

The stall test, mentioned by another poster, is also very important. I perform this on very sea trial as well. It varies based on engine and vessel, however, generally, I go from fwd at about 6 knots, to neutral, dwell 3 seconds and then shift to reverse with no throttle. Every so often I encounter an engine that will, because of the prop size, gear reduction and idle speed, stall, which is completely unacceptable. Under no circumstances should a diesel engine stall when shifting at a reasonable speed and rpm. The problem can often be resolved with a slight increase in idle speed, of course within the gear manufacturer's requirements.

I have seen pistons exit the sides of engine blocks, but never transmission gears pierce the case, even when shifted to destruction internally.

While every engine should be capable of WOT for 10 minutes (and in some cases no longer depending on the engine rating), it doesn't mean it's a good idea. I go on every sea trial prepared to do this, however, if the engine is in poor condition, with evidence of excessive blow by, or overheating jacket water or wet exhaust components, I usually indicate that the engine needs attention before it can be run in this manner.

I've experienced two catastrophic engine failures on pre-purchase sea trials, in both cases engine surveyors were present. In both cases the engines were old and probably hadn't been run at WOT in a decade or more.

 

[BandB]

I usually indicate that the engine needs attention before it can be run in this manner.

Good surveyors recognize when there are issues that make completion of a full survey inadvisable. I've often known of surveys that were stopped and it was indicated work that needed to be performed before the required tests could be completed. Some with sea trials planned, never are able to leave the slip. I know one recently where they left the dock, returned in less than 10 minutes, and the surveyor left a list of issues that must be corrected before a survey could be completed. The seller apologized and had all addressed and the surveyor returned three weeks later and the sale went through.

The worst are estate sales or kids selling for parents who are unable to use the boat. The boat's been sitting unused for a long period. If they use a broker, the broker will typically contract with a captain to run the boat in advance and be sure it's in condition. I have a friend who does a lot of business for brokers, checking boats in advance, coordinating haul outs, and running them for sea trials.

 

[tugboater]

importance of a real sea trial

These articles may be helpful.

Pre-Offer evaluation: https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/a-boat-buyers-top-ten-guide-to-a-pre-offer-evaluation-part-i/

Survey: https://www.proptalk.com/selecting-working-marine-surveyor

Sea Trails: https://www.zfmarinepropulsion.com/wp-content/uploads/SeaTrialsProBoat145B.pdf

Engine survey: https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/the-art-of-the-engine-survey/

Steve-

Thanks so much for sharing these articles. I'm one of the folks in the early stages of a used boat search. Trying to soak up as much information and look at as many as we can before the real money starts flowing. I found the article about sea trials to be a informative & compelling. All business! Though a well maintained & performing engine room has always been at the top of my "needs" list, recently it seems I've been caught up searching less important "wants". This brings me back to earth. What good do beautiful decks, a roomy aft cabin & cozy solon do if you can only idle ahead as light winds turn to a gale during a tide turn. I've been blown backward towing a barge, the last thing I want is to get blown backward with my family aboard. At a minimum, that scenario would likely send my lovely wife to land forever. I'm going to summarize the article into a checklist to use when we get to that stage. One of my goals during the process is to pin down a mechanic in the Seattle area. Fortunately I have a couple tug engineers/buddies in mind. If they are not available, I'll probably call the "CAT" or "Cummins" guy for support. Regardless, I will make sure that any offer we make will be contingent on a sea trial as thorough as the article prescribes. I imagine making it known early about plans for a "real" sea trial during discussions with brokers/owners could help weed out less desirables, saving time & money. Thanks again for sharing your experience & knowledge! I've got so much to learn.

 

[Zoar]

I agree Dan. A couple years ago, a good friend bought a 3-year old Horizon 52 PowerCat. Despite being a knowledgeable boater, my friend skipped a few steps because the boat was so new. He has spent well over 15% of the purchase price (a 6-figure purchase price) in resolving issues that would have been largely discovered during a comprehensive sea trial/survey. Who knew that getting the motorized blinds to work would be a $4000 repair?

Motorized blinds are over-rated. ;

 

[Steve DAntonio]

I agree Dan. A couple years ago, a good friend bought a 3-year old Horizon 52 PowerCat. Despite being a knowledgeable boater, my friend skipped a few steps because the boat was so new. He has spent well over 15% of the purchase price (a 6-figure purchase price) in resolving issues that would have been largely discovered during a comprehensive sea trial/survey. Who knew that getting the motorized blinds to work would be a $4000 repair?

He bought a 3 year old boat with no survey? Regardless, even if the vessel was new it should have been surveyed. I inspect new vessels (I'm in the midst of a 5 day new vessel inspection on a 60 foot motor foot vessel in Asia as I write this) on a regular basis and even the best, most conscientious boat builders make mistakes, overlook details or fail to follow manufacturer's instructions. Again, virtually every vessel should be surveyed/inspected, new or used. The correction list should be provided before the deal is closed and final payment made, only at that point are you, the buyer, in an advantageous position.

(In Johor, Malaysia)

 

[mvweebles]

He bought a 3 year old boat with no survey? Regardless, even if the vessel was new it should have been surveyed. I inspect new vessels (I'm in the midst of a 5 day new vessel inspection on a 60 foot motor foot vessel in Asia as I write this) on a regular basis and even the best, most conscientious boat builders make mistakes, overlook details or fail to follow manufacturer's instructions. Again, virtually every vessel should be surveyed/inspected, new or used. The correction list should be provided before the deal is closed and final payment made, only at that point are you, the buyer, in an advantageous position.

(In Johor, Malaysia)

It was a huge mistake Steve, and he knows it. What's amazing is he's a decent businessman and a knowledgeable boater, though switching from sail to power. He had Cummins come out for the engines and a surveyor, but it sounded like a cursory review.

I had a typo in this post - it was a 7-figure purchase even used. The electronics and such were the expensive bits. To your point, I don't think they had been properly commissioned. I'm pretty sure you would have either saved him at least $200k, or more likely, he would have walked away.

I'm guessing the 60-footer you're spending time with is by a very knowledgeable boater (not his first rodeo) who knows your value well. .

 

[mvweebles]

He bought a 3 year old boat with no survey? Regardless, even if the vessel was new it should have been surveyed. I inspect new vessels (I'm in the midst of a 5 day new vessel inspection on a 60 foot motor foot vessel in Asia as I write this) on a regular basis and even the best, most conscientious boat builders make mistakes, overlook details or fail to follow manufacturer's instructions. Again, virtually every vessel should be surveyed/inspected, new or used. The correction list should be provided before the deal is closed and final payment made, only at that point are you, the buyer, in an advantageous position.

(In Johor, Malaysia)

Steve - he had a survey, but was a basic survey. Boat needed a deeper inspection on the systems, operations, and interoperability. Which on complicated boats, is complicated. Many surveys are fairly simple inventories without thorough tests of how well it works and interoperates - especially true for electronics. Given the cost of troubleshooting electronics, it's an important element that was missed. Getting engine data across NMEA was a huge PITA and expensive. Very long list.

My takeaway is that on new, well equipped vessels, surveying equipment is not binary. Many things offer a cursory confirmation of operation. Beyond the capabilities of a small boat surveyor.

You perform a good Steve. Not just an owners advocate, but an consultant and confidante.

Peter.

 

[BandB]

We only buy new and they are all subject to survey. Most have the surveyor regularly there during the build. Others at the end. We're about to start a build in Italy and have someone on sight at least 10 days a month for the next 15 months.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

Steve - he had a survey, but was a basic survey. Boat needed a deeper inspection on the systems, operations, and interoperability. Which on complicated boats, is complicated. Many surveys are fairly simple inventories without thorough tests of how well it works and interoperates - especially true for electronics. Given the cost of troubleshooting electronics, it's an important element that was missed. Getting engine data across NMEA was a huge PITA and expensive. Very long list.

My takeaway is that on new, well equipped vessels, surveying equipment is not binary. Many things offer a cursory confirmation of operation. Beyond the capabilities of a small boat surveyor.

You perform a good Steve. Not just an owners advocate, but an consultant and confidante.

Peter.

You make a very good point here, a full assessment of a larger, more complex nav/com system could easily require a full day, including a sea trial, by an experienced nav/com expert. This is something I do not do on my inspections, which usually require two full days, and include a sea trial of about 3 hrs and a short haul, for vessels up to about 70 feet, longer for larger vessels. Nav/Com gear takes time to thoroughly assess, and as your friend found out, it can be expensive to fix if it's not functioning properly.

I tell my clients, "A survey is worthwhile if it includes nothing more than operation of every piece of gear, from light switches and microwave oven to autopilot and crane, if something doesn't work, you want to know about it". That would not include every piece of electronic gear.

(In Johor Malaysia, and washing hands often;-)

 

[rolomart3]

You shifted the boat from forward to reverse gears while the engine was running at operating speed??

It is possible. Unlike the transmission of a manual car with numerous gears that need to be shafted-in and shafted-out, the gears in the transmission of boats are usually fixed. This is why there is only one lever for the transmission. This lever moves a plate that selects one of two clutch-like disks, one for forward and the other for reverse direction. if the gears have little or no play, the RPM differential is mediated entirely by the clutch disks. As a test, to shift from one direction to the other (either way) at high RPMs does wear out a bit the disks but if there are no strong clank noises, it indicates that the gears are still very tight and not worn out.

It is also a good check on the engine mounts as they should show no play during powerful torque force to slow the engine generated by the shift.


Make sure that a mechanic familiar with the transmission approves the test. IMHO it is preferably not to exceed 1500 RPMs during a sea trial, as it may loosen up weak components. However, once the vessel is bought and the power train is brought up to 100% robustness, it is a test to confirm its top notch condition, like before ocean crossing trips.

 

[Njlarry]

Thank you all for sharing your knowledge and experience.
Just an update and a question about timing.
We put and offer in on a boat over the weekend. The contract emailed to us gives three days to sign and electronicly transfer a deposit. Only 12 days later the full amount is due. No way can a survey and sea trial be done so quickly. Is this customary?

 

[BandB]

Thank you all for sharing your knowledge and experience.
Just an update and a question about timing.
We put and offer in on a boat over the weekend. The contract emailed to us gives three days to sign and electronicly transfer a deposit. Only 12 days later the full amount is due. No way can a survey and sea trial be done so quickly. Is this customary?

No.....I assume you aren't using a buyer's broker so using the seller's? Everything is negotiable, but 12 days is not achievable.

 

[sunchaser]

Thank you all for sharing your knowledge and experience.
Just an update and a question about timing.
We put and offer in on a boat over the weekend. The contract emailed to us gives three days to sign and electronicly transfer a deposit. Only 12 days later the full amount is due. No way can a survey and sea trial be done so quickly. Is this customary?

Your money, your schedule and inspection terms. Once you get a firm inspection schedule, including return and assessment of fluid samples, title search and sign off by your insurer can a money exchange date be determined.

Don't let the brokers push the dates to get a commission.

 

[OldDan1943]

Thank you all for sharing your knowledge and experience.
Just an update and a question about timing.
We put and offer in on a boat over the weekend. The contract emailed to us gives three days to sign and electronicly transfer a deposit. Only 12 days later the full amount is due. No way can a survey and sea trial be done so quickly. Is this customary?

Realize you need the sea trial (re-sea trial after items are repaired or replace to YOUR satisfaction) then the time to secure the loan and also insurance. I dont see how this can be done so quickly.

Counter with, a 10% refundable deposit so things can progress in an orderly fashion.
It's your money, the broker wants to complete the sale quickly.
IF the broker wont bend.... walk away and tell him in no uncertain terms why you are walking away.

 

[Njlarry]

Agreed.
What is a reasonable time frame this time of year. In our area our worst snow storms come in March northeasters.

 

[OldDan1943]

Agreed.
What is a reasonable time frame this time of year. In our area our worst snow storms come in March northeasters.

Perhaps this could be resolved by a call to the broker. If not, put your money back into your wallet and walk away.

It doesn't matter what you are intending to buy, be it food, a car , a boat, or a house, it's your money and someone wants it.

As you presented it, something smells like fish and I dont think it's the fish.

 

[BruceK]

Just been through this. Don`t be afraid to request amendments to the Agreement, it`s likely to be drafted to help seller and broker. I rejected, among others, a clause providing, outrageously,that if the seller defaulted half the deposit went to the broker!,other half to me. Read it carefully, get help if you need it.

Use the agreement negotiating time to line up surveyors etc.

 

[OldDan1943]

Just been through this. Don`t be afraid to request amendments to the Agreement, it`s likely to be drafted to help seller and broker. I rejected, among others, a clause providing, outrageously,that if the seller defaulted half the deposit went to the broker!,other half to me. Read it carefully, get help if you need it.

Use the agreement negotiating time to line up surveyors etc.

LOL, half to the broker, half returned to me? I would suggest the broker can get the money from the seller. That deposit is all my money. Sounds like the beginning of a scam. They could put that boat up for sale over and over and make a tidy profit.
In fact if I see that clause in a sales contract, I'd tear up the contract and walk away. If the broker said, "What wrong?" I'd start running away.
I don't have time for such foolishness. I'd be very insulted.... He must think I am dumber than a rock.
It is not "traditional." The more I hear about this broker, the less I like him.
I once had 3 car salesmen try to gang up on me, one was stand in the door. I calmly said, 'let me out of here.' and they did. They could see just how pissed off I was.

 

[firehoser75]

NJLarry,
You need to ensure that everything you need to accomplish to give you peace of mind, and all necessary arrangements can REALISTICALLY be done in the time frame you agree to!
As others have stated, it is your money, and that should put you in the driver's seat. I understand that the seller and his broker want to ensure a timely process, and that is fine, but not at your expense (like having to forego a proper sea trial for eg.).
At some times of the year in some locations, things like a proper sea trial may be a month or more away due to weather etc. Depending on the season, and the schedule of the surveyor you want, it may be several weeks before a survey can be completed to your satisfaction.

I would suggest putting in dates that give you "wiggle room", but maybe add the clause "or sooner" to indicate your desire to not unnecessarily "drag it out". Ensure your deposit is fully refundable should the deal not complete. Also, depending on the make, model, and year of the boat, you may want to ensure that you can get affordable insurance to meet your expectations. I have it from insurance insiders (my broker for example) that several insurers will not even offer coverage in some cases. You would probably want to know that before closing a deal??
Unless you are in a "line up" to buy this boat and are feeling "it is the only one for you", you should be able to set the stage and conditions.
You may want to contact a surveyor, mechanic, an insurer, etc. to get info on the appropriate time frames required while still negotiating.
And NO, this time frame and deposit return is not the "normal" situation. I do not like what I perceive to be "strong arming" and bullying tactics from these people. Do not stand for it. Either demand what you want, or walk.

 

[OldDan1943]

NJLarry,

....Unless you are in a "line up" to buy this boat

Ah yes, another ploy.... "I have other people interested in this boat." I'd tell them, "So sell it to them, there will always be another boat." Told that one to the broker.

 

[Lollygag1]

We were looking at a boat during the winter months, sellers broker was pushing for no sea trial due to time of year and the fact it was a 2yr old boat. Since we were new and not familiar with the process we asked for advice from a good friend who had experience. Glad we did he took about 15 min to look at the boat, saw some red flags and told us to run away. He then turned us onto a buyers broker who helped guide us to make the right decision.

We did a very comprehensive survey at the suggestion of our broker. While it was pricey it was worth it as we found some items the seller had to address but also had a check list of items that we needed to keep an eye on or were minor but needed to be update and fix.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

Thank you all for sharing your knowledge and experience.
Just an update and a question about timing.
We put and offer in on a boat over the weekend. The contract emailed to us gives three days to sign and electronicly transfer a deposit. Only 12 days later the full amount is due. No way can a survey and sea trial be done so quickly. Is this customary?

It's typical to be given 30 days to do your due diligence. Having said that, on many of the sales in which I'm involved, the selling broker initially offers two weeks, we balk, and they nearly always change that to 30 days. I guess I can't blame them for trying. It takes time to line up surveyors, haul out, sea trial, fluid analysis, around various schedules, holidays etc. 30 days is for the most part the standard.

It's a big investment, you should not feel rushed so unless it's the deal of the century, and few are, don't let others push you beyond what's your comfort level. As others have noted, you should be in the driver's seat. Be prepared for the selling broker to say he has someone else interested, they almost always do, and while that may be true, you are preparing to make the offer.

This is one of the best, most objective articles I've read on selecting and working with a broker, even if you aren't selecting a broker, it has some very valuable information https://www.yachtworld.com/research/choosing-a-broker/

(In Johor, Malaysia)

 

[OldDan1943]

Buy without a sea trial?
Dont do it.
Time for you to get hard-nose about it.
Tell the broker to sell it to the other people.
And remember, there will always be another boat and it just might be better.
Brokers like this really piss me off. It sounds like the broker would make a better 'used car' salesman.

 

[slowgoesit]

Thank you all for sharing your knowledge and experience.
Just an update and a question about timing.
We put and offer in on a boat over the weekend. The contract emailed to us gives three days to sign and electronicly transfer a deposit. Only 12 days later the full amount is due. No way can a survey and sea trial be done so quickly. Is this customary?

Question on your post. You stated above that you put in an offer . . . but have questions about the contract, and apparently haven't signed it yet . . . soooo, it sounds like you floated a price with the broker, then he sent you the contract for you to sign and return with the deposit? Technically you haven't put in an offer . . . I would engage an attorney who specializes in maritime purchases, ask him/her to provide you with a contract to be used to put in an offer, (on this boat or another boat) and fill in the blanks. At a minimum:

Offer contingent upon:

1. Successful completion of survey and sea trial
2. Obtaining suitable insurance
3. Obtaining suitable moorage (if an issue in your area)
4. Obtaining suitable financing (if not paying cash)
5. Seller providing clear title to boat and tender (if included)

Specify that if the any of the contingencies above are not available, deposit to be returned within 10 days of Buyer providing written statement to Purchaser (or broker) that the deal has fallen through.

Specify that any changes to the purchase agreement will be agreed to only upon written approval of BOTH parties

If they balk, than your walk. Only item I would give any on is item 3 above.

Oh, and for a Seller's broker to require that any retained deposit being split between broker and Seller, many, if not most dirt side Real Estate contracts are now including that in their contracts . . . which we've lined through three times recently, stating that that was a deal breaker for us as we do not feel that a broker should profit from bringing a bad deal, or unqualified buyer to the table. . . . Two realtors had no issue with lining through that clause, one balked, said absolutely not, then contacted us two days later and said his broker reversed his decision. We said, sorry, we've already signed with another realtor, so sad.

Good luck with your boat purchase, either this one, or another one, let us know how it turns out!