Offer required to SEE the boat?

[Boatfever]

I've spent 30 years in selling & learned to qualify buyers before spending a lot of time with them. (There are only 24 hours in a day and a good salesman must make the very best use of them.) This broker was trying to qualify you as a genuine buyer and you answered his biggest question at the outset!

I understand the broker has limited time, (Conversley, us buyers have limited time and limited travel budget for viewing suitable boats) however, if a broker won't give me enough information to decide if the boat is a worthy candidate for booking airfare to the tune of $1200 then, with my over 40 years as a buyer of all manner of things, he's likely trying to qualify me as a mullet to be foul hooked.

I've traveled half way across the U.S. more than once to see boats (They are not all accurately represented via phone and photos) and ended up contracting my current one on the first viewing after a 1600 mi trip. Sometimes it seems to be a crap shoot.

 

[BruceK]

The thread drifted a little so I reread post one, and there is no doubt the broker was, at the very least, "behaving badly". So much that dealing with him confidently would be a stretch. Though he could have just been playing games, for fun, seeing how outrageous he could be.
Consider the plight of the long distance boat buyer. Easy to miss an item or realize late something needed further inspection. Too late back home, so if you rely on the broker to fill the gap, it`s vital you trust what you get. If it`s wrong, survey contingency may save you, but only after spending $. I`ve just been interstate to see 2 quite similar 40ft trawlers, making notes as you inspect helps later at review and decision time. If only "the right boat" could be close to home.

 

[rjwilliams11741]

Not common practice, but I've seen it happen.

Last year we looked at a boat in Sausalito, CA. Broker said we had to make an offer before he would even allow starting the engine at the dock! Wouldn't have started anyway, the batteries were dead! And the boat was covered with gull poop, hadn't been cleaned in some time.

We walked away from that one for sure, broker had no clue. Recc you do the same.

Not starting the engines before accepted "offer" is the norm.

 

[markajh]

NO

Bear with the long description please. I'm wondering if this is "common".

I saw a boat on yachtworld that I was potentially interested in, but I couldn't really say for sure because there were only FIVE pictures. There were zero of the engine room, zero of the saloon, zero of the cockpit, zero of the flybridge, zero of the foredeck, and only one of the two heads. So I emailed the broker asking for more info and pictures.

He got back with info (but no pictures) and his sales pitch of "get down here immediately and see it because it will be gone soon!" (yeah, right). I replied that I was in no position to buy the boat because I'm still trying to sell mine, and that I was simply collecting information so that I'd be prepared should something fall into place. He asked for details on my boat (which I provided) and soon replied that the owner was interested in including my boat in trade as part of a deal.

Now my boat has been on the market awhile so that caught my attention. And we were willing to travel to see it because I've never been on this model boat before, and even if I don't buy this one, I'd like to see whether it really meets my needs at all. So I asked to set an appointment to see the boat, assuming that offers and surveys and sea trials and negotiations would follow should it prove to be "all that".

He replied that I couldn't see the boat unless I made a written offer first.

I replied that I had no idea what to offer as I had no idea of the condition. Also all of the travel was at my expense, and the owner wasn't "holding the boat for me" or anything, so I couldn't imagine a reason why an offer would be required. He replied that it was "for my own protection - to keep the price from going up" and that it kept joyriders off the boat. Like I'm going to spend $1200 in airfare for my wife and I to tour his 25 year old boat (and we hadn't asked for a sea trial). He said that this is completely common and standard practice. He wouldn't provide any additional pictures to help fill in my knowledge gap however.

Now I completely understand that the offer is conditional and that it obligates me to nothing. But this high pressure tactic, along with the secrecy of the photos, just gave me a really bad feeling about this whole thing - enough that I was no longer willing to spend my money to travel there just to get disappointed and railroaded into a deal.

So - is that "common practice" to require a written offer for someone to even see a boat?

Thanks
BD

This is a tactic that sets a tone for an agressive sales approach, forcing you to make decisions fast, most likely making inspection difficult, intimidation and bullying. It's fishy on every level. I would pass on the listing, that broker, and that boat if listed elsewhere. I can assure you they have something big to hide.

 

[ssobol]

Not starting the engines before accepted "offer" is the norm.

No way I'd buy a boat like that unless it was my choice not to start the engines/genset/systems. The engines are a big ticket item and their condition and operation would be a price driver in the amount of the "offer". Same with some of the systems. The refusal to demonstrate the operation of any system or equipment without a valid reason (e.g. the boat is on the hard) would be a big red flag.

However, I would be willing to pay the seller's out of pocket expenses for an engine start (or whatever) if I was considering buying their boat whether I end up making an offer or not.

 

[BDofMSP]

Some follow up here. Earlier I mentioned that this situation drove us to make a visit to view a different boat this weekend. The owner was very proud of the condition of the boat and encouraged us to visit before he pulled it for the winter, so that he could demonstrate the systems working, take us for a spin, etc. The boat was scheduled to go into storage Saturday.

Our visit was Friday. The visit was very worthwhile because while I've been looking at that model boat online for two years, it's very different to get on it and get a feel for the layout and space. We were very pleased with those things and were encouraged that this could very much be the right model for us. That has a lot of value because it helps tune my search.

On the other hand, this owner has a very unrealistic idea of the condition of his boat. Things that have worn slowly over time he sees as normal, and he hasn't considered the potential downstream impacts of that damage. For example a railing was bent by the yard at haul out at some point. But in addition to the bend, it stressed all the fasteners for that and the two adjacent stanchions. They are very loose and are clearly holding water underneath, which has certainly worked it's way into the deck. There is a large streak of rust running down the side from the floor of the flybridge - not sure what that is, but it's not "normal wear" and likely not cheap. Cockpit hatch won't close, vinyl is mildew stained, helm chair is coming apart, canvas and eisenglas are cracked and taped, swim platform has serious dents and cracks, etc etc.

Most of these issues are cosmetic and could be adjusted for in the offer. But other things give me more pause. The battery cables for the bow thruster are scorched at the battery. There is an oil leak on the starboard engine (posted on another thread here) that's likely from the head gasket. And the boat smokes. A LOT. And it doesn't stop when it warms up.

The owner may be willing to move on the price to adjust the condition. I would be open to that because this deal includes trading my boat, and I would be happy to have all of that behind me. But adjustments for the engines would require an engine survey, and I'm not sure I'm willing to invest in that at this point. If they found significant problems, I'm not sure I want to go through a full repower as part of this.

Anyway, like I said, the trip had value. It completely reinforces my hesitation about the original boat though. If I'm this disappointed by a boat that I had a LOT of pictures of, just think how I probably would have found the boat where they refused to show pictures.

BD

 

[RossWilson]

In my experience, an offer includes a deposit. If you were to comply - and submit a deposit cheque or credit card number - you'd be running the risk of becoming a victim of fraud. This could simply be a scam. Best advice? Walk away.

 

[Captain Ron D]

Deposit to see boat

For many years I was a boat salesman and NEVER did we require a 'deposit' to see a boat, or even go for a sea trial for that matter. My opinion is,,,,, go find another boat and seller. If he is this demanding up front, just think what it will be like if you need service or information or recommendations etc.
Captain Ron D.

 

[Kit_L]

Interesting thread.

My situation: there's a boat for sale North of me; it's been for sale for over a year. It looked perfect for my partner and I, and the seller supplied a number of additional photos at my request. I add that the photos (as seems to be so common) were not good quality, so it was hard to see the kind of detail I wanted from them.

I asked the seller if I could come to him (a five hour drive) to look at his boat. No problem. I spent a couple of hours on board looking everywhere; he started the engine, and the generator and ran all systems, except the stabilisers. I asked him if we could take it to sea (two hours by water away) to see how well the stabilisers worked and he said no. He said the vessel's prop and rudder were covered in weed, and he did not want to take her out from the dock.

He said that if I made him an offer in writing that was acceptable to him, then he would slip the boat, clean and anti-foul. He also added that any offer I made would be conditional on a survey and sea trials, and he'd be happy to do this.

Speaking generally, I feel a look should be at no expense (this is simply the risk a seller needs to take in order to be able to sell anything), but feel his position on me making him an offer before survey and sea trials is perfectly reasonable. He also added that if we were not happy with the boat in any way, that we were not under obligation to him following the trials.

If I wanted to look at a boat, at my expense, and the seller wanted a contractual arrangement before inspection, I would say no.

As well, a personal rule is that if an ad for a trawler-type vessel does not have images of the engine room, instruments, and steering gear in the initial ad, it's better to pass. As well, any boat I am interested in, I ask the seller to send me images of wiring, and the batteries—a lot can be learned that way.

 

[SoWhat]

I've spent 30 years in selling & learned to qualify buyers before spending a lot of time with them. (There are only 24 hours in a day and a good salesman must make the very best use of them.) This broker was trying to qualify you as a genuine buyer and you answered his biggest question at the outset!

FIVE photographs???? Seriously??? Sounds like a broker living on past reputation and a big rolodex of former clients.

Sales is about building relationships, not simply qualifying buyers. It's 2019 and it only take a few keystrokes to send a package of clear informative photographs. Broker is either concealing an engine room full of oil and grease or he is unable to find film for his Polaroid.

 

[OldDan1943]

You a free walk through. Checked the lay out of the boat and yes, even the engine room.
He started the main engine and the generator.... how long did he run each? It is unusual he started them, for free. You want to go for a boat ride/survey of course you need to make an acceptable offer and deposit held by a disinterested party, escrow at the bank. That the offer is conditional on successful survey.
You might want to hang around for when he hauls the boat to get the weeds off the prop. A boat I had for sale, the looker paid for the haul and power wash.

 

[SoWhat]

I've spent 30 years in selling & learned to qualify buyers before spending a lot of time with them. (There are only 24 hours in a day and a good salesman must make the very best use of them.) This broker was trying to qualify you as a genuine buyer and you answered his biggest question at the outset!

FIVE photographs???? Seriously??? Sounds like a broker living on past reputation and a big rolodex of former clients.

Sales is about building relationships, not simply qualifying buyers. It's 2019 and it only take a few keystrokes to send a package of clear informative photographs. Broker is either concealing an engine room full of oil and grease or he is unable to find film for his Polaroid.

Broker must have graduated from selling used cars. Give the buyer as little info as possible, get them in the door, then set the hook. Good luck with that philosophy.

 

[thataway]

On the other hand, this owner has a very unrealistic idea of the condition of his boat. Things that have worn slowly over time he sees as normal, and he hasn't considered the potential downstream impacts of that damage.

BD, In Post #19 you stated that this second boat's owner was a "Charter Captain". That should have put his knowledge a notch and maintenance above the average seller. It sounds as if he is selling the boat himself, rather than thru a broker. I would be a little suspicious about a "charter captain" (assume that this is a 6 pack or the boat would have been inspected for his "Party Cruises" who does not maintain his boat .It may be he didn't want to take the time? But in view of the things you found, I suspect he is not meticulous in caring for his boat--a warning sign.

There are lots of boats out there, and although trading in your 29' cabin cruiser is very appealing, in no way make it a deciding factor. It is difficult to own two boats at a time, but it is even more difficult to have a boat which needs a lot of surprise work. Be sure that your "Survey" is not only hull and condition, but a separate survey by a diesel mechanic who is certified in that specific brand of engine. This alone may take half a day. Again, you want to ask questions and learn from that process.

When looking at a boat to purchase, take lots of photographs. Record (with permission) the answers to any questions (for your reference). During the survey and sea trials, run a video camera. You want every detail, including how systems work, documented. Ask every question you think of, (have a list to begin with). Make sure every switch is thrown, and hose is explained.

I spent a full week with a well know broker looking for a Defever 49, as a buyer's broker. We didn't find a boat which came up to our "picky" specs. The spending of time is the broker's or agent's stock in trade. If he is good, he has a lot of knowledge of boating, and will be honest.

Just for fun, I added up the number of boats over 22' I've owned since 1962, when I bought my first offshore boat. I came up with 16 only 5 of those were motor vessels, the other 11 were sail. I acquire a boat for a purpose, use it, and then move on. There were also four 18 footers and one 20 footer. (which I have considered an ideal size for a runabout, fishing and diving boat), which were second boats; not dinghies--but all of them were towed behind larger trawlers or sailboats at one time or another.

Good luck on finding the right boat for your use.

 

[jsimpson]

I had that happen with my current boat. It was a condition imposed by the owner; I told the broker I was willing to drive 10 hours to see the boat, but the rest was nonsense. The broker finally convinced the owner to show the boat without earnest money and a conditional offer, and now we’re all happy!

 

[ssobol]

...Speaking generally, I feel a look should be at no expense (this is simply the risk a seller needs to take in order to be able to sell anything), but feel his position on me making him an offer before survey and sea trials is perfectly reasonable. He also added that if we were not happy with the boat in any way, that we were not under obligation to him following the trials....

If you can back out of the deal because "we were not happy with the boat in any way" then what is the point of requiring an acceptable offer before any survey or sea trials? You could always find a reason not to like the boat, "Sorry, the wife doesn't like the color of the bath mat in the second head, thanks but no thanks."

Maybe I'm dense or something, but how can you make an "acceptable" offer on anything without knowing the state/condition of the thing you are making the offer on? This would include the state of the engines and other complex systems. People don't (usually) make offers on cars or houses without knowing the condition of said car or house. If someone selling a car or house prevented you from making a proper assessment of the condition of what you were thinking of buying, you'd walk away, right? Why wouldn't boats be the same?

 

[Kit_L]

ssobol wrote:

how can you make an "acceptable" offer on anything without knowing the state/condition of the thing you are making the offer on? This would include the state of the engines and other complex systems.

The engine's a Gardner 8LX with just over 2,000 hours, and it starts instantly. No sounds other than the noises you'd want to hear. Same with the generator. I inspected every square inch of the solid vinylester hull from the inside. It has an engine-driven emergency bilge pump system, and the generator can be pressed into service to the same end if the main engine fails. The wiring is the best I have personally seen. The owner is a professional boat outfitter, and is 86 (why he is selling). Every part of the boat looks extremely well maintained.

As for your point about not knowing the state of what I'm buying, that's what the oil assay, survey, and sea trials will be for, if I decide to go further. I'd be prepared to go ahead on that basis. If there's anything I don't like during the sea trials, or the survey finds any substantial problem, then I will not go ahead.

 

[GoneFarrell]

Not starting the engines before accepted "offer" is the norm.

Have to disagree. It may be the "norm" in CA, but that sure isn't true up here in the PNW or BC, where we have had no problem starting motors, going through electrical/gear before an offer. The boat I currently own, we took it out for an hour shakedown. Sameo with the boats my gal bought.

This particular broker in Saus was a dick, he knew beforehand we were coming down 600 miles from out of state to look at the boat he was repping, if that don't say serious then too bad! All the other same models looked at elsewhere no issues with running motors/winches/gear.

The lesson learned is to qual the broker before I waste my time. He with the gold makes the rules. Brokers with poo-covered boats and dead batteries don't make the cut.

 

[mvweebles]

Have to disagree. It may be the "norm" in CA, but that sure isn't true up here in the PNW or BC, where we have had no problem starting motors, going through electrical/gear before an offer.

As a seller or a buyer, I'm 100% good with requiring a contingent purchase agreement and deposit prior to full inspection of the goods against represented statements. As a buyer, I want to have zero culpability and liability. For example, during a sea trial, the owner should provide a captain to demonstrate the major systems. If the engine goes wonky at WOT, or gear isn't properly secured and shifts during figure-8 turns, or someone forgets to go through the boat afterwards and turn something off that should have been on (or vice versa), not my problem.

In many larger markets such as San Francisco, a boat might be shown by a broker other than the listing agent. As a seller, would you really want him/her to have authority to start-up the boat for a potential buyer? Would you want to keep a key available? What happens if you keep your intake raw water seacock closed and they fry the engine? Or turns on the discharge pump for the holding tank and dumps 50-gallons of sewage into the water? If you were a broker, would you want that liability?

I'm good with requiring a contingent purchase agreement. Works for the buyer and the seller and makes perfect sense to me. Lighting-up a boat is a lot different than starting a car.

 

[twistedtree]

Some follow up here. Earlier I mentioned that this situation drove us to make a visit to view a different boat this weekend. The owner was very proud of the condition of the boat and encouraged us to visit before he pulled it for the winter, so that he could demonstrate the systems working, take us for a spin, etc. The boat was scheduled to go into storage Saturday.

Our visit was Friday. The visit was very worthwhile because while I've been looking at that model boat online for two years, it's very different to get on it and get a feel for the layout and space. We were very pleased with those things and were encouraged that this could very much be the right model for us. That has a lot of value because it helps tune my search.

On the other hand, this owner has a very unrealistic idea of the condition of his boat. Things that have worn slowly over time he sees as normal, and he hasn't considered the potential downstream impacts of that damage. For example a railing was bent by the yard at haul out at some point. But in addition to the bend, it stressed all the fasteners for that and the two adjacent stanchions. They are very loose and are clearly holding water underneath, which has certainly worked it's way into the deck. There is a large streak of rust running down the side from the floor of the flybridge - not sure what that is, but it's not "normal wear" and likely not cheap. Cockpit hatch won't close, vinyl is mildew stained, helm chair is coming apart, canvas and eisenglas are cracked and taped, swim platform has serious dents and cracks, etc etc.

Most of these issues are cosmetic and could be adjusted for in the offer. But other things give me more pause. The battery cables for the bow thruster are scorched at the battery. There is an oil leak on the starboard engine (posted on another thread here) that's likely from the head gasket. And the boat smokes. A LOT. And it doesn't stop when it warms up.

The owner may be willing to move on the price to adjust the condition. I would be open to that because this deal includes trading my boat, and I would be happy to have all of that behind me. But adjustments for the engines would require an engine survey, and I'm not sure I'm willing to invest in that at this point. If they found significant problems, I'm not sure I want to go through a full repower as part of this.

Anyway, like I said, the trip had value. It completely reinforces my hesitation about the original boat though. If I'm this disappointed by a boat that I had a LOT of pictures of, just think how I probably would have found the boat where they refused to show pictures.

BD

So if you had made a deposit to see that boat, you would now be fighting to get you $$ back.

 

[OldDan1943]

So if you had made a deposit to see that boat, you would now be fighting to get you $$ back.

Assuming. after inspection, and assume he is still interested in the boat.
He should give the owner an opportunity to correct all the faults and or negotiate a lower price.
If the owner will do neither to his satisfaction, there should be no "fighting", merely a request for the return of the deposit with the explanation, "I am no longer interested in your boat." Of course, thanking him for the opportunity to visit his boat.

 

[mvweebles]

This one is simple: Either (i) the broker's business model is finding stupid people with 6-figure wads of cash to buy boats and are willing to plunk down 10% just to see the boat; or (ii) there is a misunderstanding somewhere along the line. If the latter, either figure it out or find another boat/broker. If the former, well, there's no fixing stupid.

 

[OldDan1943]

Hmmm, I don't put down a deposit to test drive a car.
I don't put down a deposit to walk through a house I am interested in.

 

[mvweebles]

Hmmm, I don't put down a deposit to test drive a car.

Dan - You have a very nice boat - American Tug 34. When the time comes to sell, will you be okay with a broker firing-up the engines and electronics just because a buyer states he/she is very interested, perhaps even taking them out for a test drive? Even in the absence of test drive, would you trust two perfect strangers of uncertain skills to do the necessary pre-start checks on your boat? If I were selling my boat privately, I may chose to do so based on my interactions with a possible buyer. To me, an exception, not a rule.

 

[rslifkin]

Dan - You have a very nice boat - American Tug 34. When the time comes to sell, will you be okay with a broker firing-up the engines and electronics just because a buyer states he/she is very interested, perhaps even taking them out for a test drive? Even in the absence of test drive, would you trust two perfect strangers of uncertain skills to do the necessary pre-start checks on your boat? If I were selling my boat privately, I may chose to do so based on my interactions with a possible buyer. To me, an exception, not a rule.

If it were me, I'd either make sure the broker could be trusted to do all of that stuff properly, or I'd make sure I'm there if a buyer wants to see things run. Provided they're not asking for anything crazy it's a good excuse to get a little time on the water. Plus, even boats for sale need exercise to keep everything healthy.

 

[OldDan1943]

Yup, turn it over the a respected broker....
I agree, no engine noises until a deposit is in escrow and all pre-start investigations are completed.
A boat ride with his surveyor and broker and ideally, ME TOO.
If I cant make it, then MY knowledgable representative

 

[OldDan1943]

Dan - You have a very nice boat - American Tug 34. When the time comes to sell, will you be okay with a broker firing-up the engines and electronics just because a buyer states he/she is very interested, perhaps even taking them out for a test drive? Even in the absence of test drive, would you trust two perfect strangers of uncertain skills to do the necessary pre-start checks on your boat? If I were selling my boat privately, I may chose to do so based on my interactions with a possible buyer. To me, an exception, not a rule.

Thanks for the compliment on my AT34. It was a basic 'turn key' boat... needed fuel and water and go.
Of course, I have managed to find many ways to spend money on it too. I just hope the next owner appreciates my upgrades.

 

[firehoser75]

Not sure, but I think we have gotten a "bit sidetracked".
The OP stated the broker asked for an offer to purchase and a deposit prior to even being allowed onto the boat for a viewing! This I would not do. I don't pay a fee or give a deposit to enter the shopping mall! Same idea, but really stretched out for that one
I agree about not allowing either other brokers or potential buyers "messing" with my boat without my supervision. Too many possibilities for "screw ups".

If a potential buyer has come back for a second viewing, I get a good feeling from them as to their legitimate interest, and I am present, then maybe I would start up some systems and if weather was good, maybe go for a ride. Time on the water is good and maybe the boat could use a run?
However, that would probably be the exception, and usually an offer would be required for a sea trial, but I would not expect a deposit just for a viewing.

 

[ssobol]

If it were me, I'd either make sure the broker could be trusted to do all of that stuff properly, or I'd make sure I'm there if a buyer wants to see things run. Provided they're not asking for anything crazy it's a good excuse to get a little time on the water. Plus, even boats for sale need exercise to keep everything healthy.

I would have thought that to be qualified any broker would a) be or have someone qualified to operate the systems on boats that they are trying to sell and b) have insurance to cover damages/loss of value/liability if something goes wrong during any sort of demo. I would also expect that this would all be spelled out clearly in the contract with the broker.

I have no problem giving a deposit as a commitment to buy a boat once I've decided to do so. However, giving a deposit just to see or demo a boat is not something I'm going to do. Whoever has the money has the upper hand. As soon as you give money to the broker, he has an advantage.

 

[mvweebles]

I would have thought that to be qualified any broker would a) be or have someone qualified to operate the systems on boats that they are trying to sell and b) have insurance to cover damages/loss of value/liability

Much different type of insurance. When I operated a trawler training company, insurance was was something like $5k for coverage that was limited to 15-days of training. And that was almost 20-years ago. It's the main reason I stopped offering training on my boat.

As far as brokers being qualified to operate a boat, I have met many who I liked and was happy to do business with. I have no idea if they know much about operating a boat, but I suspect some where pretty inexperienced. Doesn't mean they aren't a good broker - for those old enough to remember the glory days of Boxing, Angelo Dundee trained Mohammed Ali, George Foreman, and Sugar Ray Leonard. I don't think he ever boxed, but he was a helluva trainer.

 

[OldDan1943]

This morning I talk with a broker from Denison. I asked specifically if he would insist on an acceptable offer and deposit for a walk-through. He said 'no'.
Of course there is that situation of the broker 'qualifying' a buyer by looking at things such as car he drives, the way he dresses and maybe even hair length.
If any broker used those guide lines on me..... I dont think i would qualify for a walk-through on a row boat.
SHRUG His loss.