Offer required to SEE the boat?

[Bacchus]

Never heard of it. You see the boat first, spend as much time as you want looking around for obvious problems. If you like the boat, make an offer and then all the rest, sea trials etc., if offer accepted. Would you make an offer on a house or a car you had never seen? No, nor would most.

I support that if a convenient trip to go take a look. I didn't want to take a 1500 mi flight if the seller was firm on their ask price. A lot depends on the situation... no right or wrong!

 

[tiltrider1]

Every one is right. This is sleazy. Let me explain the scam. The buyer has no offer sheets so he can’t really make a written offer. No problem, the broker just happens to have an offer sheet that he fills out and you sign only it’s missing all the buyer protections. Now maybe you catch it, maybe you don’t but from here on out the broker has the upper hand, suddenly your boat is on yacht world and even if you don’t buy the boat the broker has the right to sell yours or the offer sheet didn’t include the ability to opt out or you just signed up the guy to be your buyer broker regardless of what you buy. There are a lot of ways for this to go bad.

As every one has said, this smells bad.

 

[BDofMSP]

I support that if a convenient trip to go take a look. I didn't want to take a 1500 mi flight if the seller was firm on their ask price. A lot depends on the situation... no right or wrong!

But with no pictures of the ER? Not a single glimpse of the saloon? No idea what condition the entire upper deck was in? Upholstery could be perfect or a train wreck.

 

[OldDan1943]

In their defense, you really aren't ready to buy any boat until yours sells.

I still think a walk through should be free. You want to go for a ride, get your deposit money and put it in escrow. Fails sea trial, retrieve your money and walk away.

 

[Airstream345]

Interesting that he asked for an offer from you but then mentioned two other people were coming to look at it this week. It's all BS and a lame attempt at pressuring an offer. Too bad you can't let the seller know he's potentially losing out because his broker is an a$$hole.

 

[BDofMSP]

In their defense, you really aren't ready to buy any boat until yours sells.

I am if my boat is part of my payment, which was what THEY offered.

 

[BDofMSP]

Too bad you can't let the seller know he's potentially losing out because his broker is an a$$hole.

I could actually. The broker gave me more than enough information to identify the owner. He's actually posted on this forum before, although years ago. But I'd never do that behind the scenes like that.

 

[OldDan1943]

My seller's broker tried that with me. 'I have another couple interested in this (newer) more expensive boat.' I suggested he better sell them the boat. I did buy a different boat from him, older and less expensive.

 

[Pau Hana]

When we purchased Pau Hana, we had the keys to the boat for 6 months prior to actually making an offer on the boat (we moored at Selene Seattle, and the boat came to the dock for sale- and we had a stellar relationship with the broker).

No contrast, no drama- and we purchased the boat.

 

[syjos]

We are on our 23rd boat and have never run into anything like that, I would walk away as it seems you are. Good for you.

23 boats! Yikes!

So are you flipping boats, moving a lot or have not found the right boat?

Counting tenders?

Curious minds want to know.

I've been boating since 1964 and only have owned two boats over 20' A lot more if I count day sailors, tenders and runabouts under 20'

 

[JLD]

Perhaps the broker is related to this guy and also has a bridge in Brooklyn for sale! :lol:

Jim

 

[BandB]

23 boats! Yikes!

So are you flipping boats, moving a lot or have not found the right boat?

Counting tenders?

Curious minds want to know.

I've been boating since 1964 and only have owned two boats over 20' A lot more if I count day sailors, tenders and runabouts under 20'

You really going to count tenders? That's not right. That puts me on 20, but 9 are RIB's. My wife just said we better get busy then and make our return trip to Italy in December. Why did he have to post that.

 

[stubones99]

You're being generous! I was thinking $1.00,
just enough to make it a legal offer!

Be careful... You get to tour the boat and it's sitting on the bottom, with oil leaking from every opening and the owner just accepted your $1.00 offer. Congratulations, you just bought a boat, er a submarine...

 

[Bacchus]

Be careful... You get to tour the boat and it's sitting on the bottom, with oil leaking from every opening and the owner just accepted your $1.00 offer. Congratulations, you just bought a boat, er a submarine...

Thats another case where Contingencies save your butt

 

[stubones99]

Thats another case where Contingencies save your butt

ONLY if you put "as long as the water is on the outside" in the offer contingencies...

 

[twistedtree]

I think all this is a stark reminder to carefully watch how YOUR broker is representing YOUR boat when you are selling. When in doubt, get someone to pose as a buyer and see what happens. If I were the seller and found out about this, I’d have a new broker the next day.

 

[Martin J]

Sounds a real con to me. Reputable brokers would never act like that. Is he a licensed broker or a wannabe broker writing his own rules?

 

[Shrew]

Let me explain the scam. The buyer has no offer sheets so he can’t really make a written offer. No problem, the broker just happens to have an offer sheet that he fills out and you sign only it’s missing all the buyer protections. Now maybe you catch it, maybe you don’t but from here on out the broker has the upper hand

Yep, a broker-buddy of mine was telling me about this one (admittedly uncommon). Guys who aren't really selling boats. Instead, they are showing boats and collecting deposits. The broker offers the contract with some weak clauses which are technically difficult to meet. When you back out, he keeps the deposit, or a portion of the deposit.

The OTHER thing to consider is how the broker was approached.

I replied that I was in no position to buy the boat because I'm still trying to sell mine, and that I was simply collecting information so that I'd be prepared should something fall into place. He asked for details on my boat (which I provided) and soon replied that the owner was interested in including my boat in trade as part of a deal.

The OP looks like a tire kicker here. Brokers rarely want to spin their wheels with a tire kicker. I also suspect that the contract was to lock up both boats.

 

[BDofMSP]

I think all this is a stark reminder to carefully watch how YOUR broker is representing YOUR boat when you are selling. When in doubt, get someone to pose as a buyer and see what happens. If I were the seller and found out about this, I’d have a new broker the next day.

TOTALLY agree on this. During this process I've reached out to several brokers for additional information or to make an appointment to see a boat, with mostly disappointing experiences.

In fact, we cancelled a trip to the east coast at the end of August because of the SEVEN boats that we tried to see, only four of the brokers even replied to the emails. Of those four only two were willing to set up firm appointments. The other two wanted to "see how it goes" because two weeks out was too far in advance to book. We decided that we weren't going to buy tickets just to see two boats (we weren't that interested in one of them anyway).

If I was one of those owners I'd be furious.
BD

 

[BDofMSP]

Sounds a real con to me. Reputable brokers would never act like that. Is he a licensed broker or a wannabe broker writing his own rules?

Licensed broker that I've found quoted in several boat review articles over the years (searched him since this event). Years of experience.
BD

 

[BDofMSP]

The OP looks like a tire kicker here. Brokers rarely want to spin their wheels with a tire kicker. I also suspect that the contract was to lock up both boats.

That's a real mischaracterization in my book. I absolutely WAS a tire kicker when I requested photos - but I was only requesting photos, not a showing and certainly not a sea trial. Moving me from a tire kicker to a buyer is his job.

I became a potential buyer when HE suggested the inclusion of my boat in the deal (he did his job well). If he didn't want to "spin his wheels" with me then he should have provided me the information I needed to complete the job rather than railroad me into a contract for something I had no idea whether I was interested in. I gave him every chance.

Regarding locking up both boats, that was never mentioned. This all transpired in the course of two days. The broker asked many questions about my boat and I provided him with photos of everything he wanted. I informed him of what I expected to receive for my trade as well. Obviously I may not get that, but I didn't force him to make a written offer prior to me investing over $1000 to fly down and look at his boat. I executed all of this in good faith and to me the willingness to spend my own time and money moves me well beyond the "tire kicker" status.

 

[MYTraveler]

Properly written, your offer, if accepted, creates an option to purchase at a price that may be acceptable to you with absolutely no liability. (The comment that the buyer may accept an offer of even only $1 just to unload a massive liability need not be a concern.)
Without that, you will invest a bunch of time and money traveling to see the boat, only to find that, if you like it, you have, at best, a weak negotiating position, and at worst an unreasonable seller who can't be dealt with.

 

[BDofMSP]

Properly written, your offer, if accepted, creates an option to purchase at a price that may be acceptable to you with absolutely no liability. (The comment that the buyer may accept an offer of even only $1 just to unload a massive liability need not be a concern.)
Without that, you will invest a bunch of time and money traveling to see the boat, only to find that, if you like it, you have, at best, a weak negotiating position, and at worst an unreasonable seller who can't be dealt with.

Of course I stated that I understood that an offer didn't create a liability for me in my first post. But I disagree that not making one (vs making one with almost zero information) puts me at a disadvantage.

If I assume it's a pile of garbage and offer low, then I'm likely rejected and may miss out on a nice boat. If I assume it's nice and offer asking price, then I am in the position of justifying every single price decrease - a painful process that sets up a negative negotiation from the start. Either way it sets a guidepost that only advantages the seller from my point of view.

With no information about the condition, I'm left with either assuming he's reasonable and going there to find out and work with him, or walking away. I chose the latter.

 

[MYTraveler]

Of course I stated that I understood that an offer didn't create a liability for me in my first post. But I disagree that not making one (vs making one with almost zero information) puts me at a disadvantage.

If I assume it's a pile of garbage and offer low, then I'm likely rejected and may miss out on a nice boat. If I assume it's nice and offer asking price, then I am in the position of justifying every single price decrease - a painful process that sets up a negative negotiation from the start. Either way it sets a guidepost that only advantages the seller from my point of view.

With no information about the condition, I'm left with either assuming he's reasonable and going there to find out and work with him, or walking away. I chose the latter.

So, build into your offer the representations upon which your price is predicated. If your reasoning is that the process is too painful for you to endure, I understand. Plenty of people are that way. But, if you want a shot at making a good (and, given how the seller/broker deals with other buyers) or possibly great deal, you have to get them engaged. The Art of the Deal.
As it is, you are dead in the water.

 

[BDofMSP]

I think we've beaten this horse pretty well now. I have no idea if this is a boat that I want to invest another minute on or not. What I do know is that I don't trust the broker so I'm moving on.

 

[Plane Nauti]

As one that has not purchased a large boat I have a question.

Could the broker (original in OP comments) simply have observed said boat at the dock. Realized it was never used and snapped some photos to list the boat (thus no ER pics etc).Then, when the broker had an offer, approach the owner stating he had a buyer for his boat at this price minus brokers commission. Was he interested in selling?

Thanks,

Keith

 

[Group9]

Sounds too sketchy.

 

[Shrew]

That's a real mischaracterization in my book.

Hopefully, you realize that "I'M" not attempting to mischaracterize you. I agree that the broker seemed to have dropped the ball. No pictures and an insistence that there be a deposit to SEE the boat is unrealistic.

All I'm saying is look at it from the brokers perspective. You're asking him to work and admitting that you're not immediately in the market. He should have taken photos, but for whatever reason didn't.

You're now asking him to drive to the boat and spend time taking photo's, downloading the photos from a camera and uploading to a site or an E-mail. Most brokers cover a wide regional area, so this could be several hours of work.

You are then asking for a viewing appointment. Between drive time, chit chat, and showing, this could be several hours.

What you're asking is for the broker to dedicate hours over two different days when you clearly indicated that you are not currently in the market.

I'm not saying he's right, but I am saying you're asking him to spend hours on what you've indicated is most likely not going to be a sale.

The broker more than likely represents tens up to a 100 boats. He probably gets many, many e-mails every day. Most E-mails, calls, and viewings are tire kickers. There are many, many ours spent to arrive at a sale. Brokers tend to put as much interest and effort as the buyer does. He could spend most of his day replying to E-mails, taking and uploading pictures that he never gets a response to.

Unfortunately, after a number of years, the broker becomes somewhat cynical and also understands where his time is best spent.

You MAY be a serious buyer, but his history of experience hasn't lead him to that conclusion yet.

 

[denverd0n]

If I assume it's nice and offer asking price, then I am in the position of justifying every single price decrease...

No you're not. In fact, something similar happened to me in the process of buying a house once. Realized it was in far worse condition than represented. I simply told them, original offer is cancelled, based on an unacceptable inspection.


They wanted to know what exactly was the problem. They wanted to negotiate with me. I said, nope, original offer is cancelled. End of discussion. I then told them that we could start over from square one, with an offer that was 30% less than I had originally made, and go from there, if they wanted to. They didn't want to.


I found another house two weeks later. Just over THREE weeks later, they called me back wanting me to make an offer. Sorry, too late.


Point is, you only have to get into a detailed negotiation if you want to. You can always just say "that offer is off the table, here's my new offer, take it or leave it."


All that said, however, I think you are correct in walking away from this one. I just see too many red flags here. I'm lucky in that I live in Florida, so there are hundreds of boats available within just a few hours drive. Given that, I would NEVER make an offer on a boat I had not at least looked at. Not everyone, of course, can do that.


Good luck, however things turn out for you.

 

[Codger2]

I agree that the broker seemed to have dropped the ball. No pictures and an insistence that there be a deposit to SEE the boat is unrealistic.

All I'm saying is look at it from the brokers perspective. You're asking him to work and admitting that you're not immediately in the market.


What you're asking is for the broker to dedicate hours over two different days when you clearly indicated that you are not currently in the market.

I'm not saying he's right, but I am saying you're asking him to spend hours on what you've indicated is most likely not going to be a sale.


Unfortunately, after a number of years, the broker becomes somewhat cynical and also understands where his time is best spent.

You MAY be a serious buyer, but his history of experience hasn't lead him to that conclusion yet.

I've spent 30 years in selling & learned to qualify buyers before spending a lot of time with them. (There are only 24 hours in a day and a good salesman must make the very best use of them.) This broker was trying to qualify you as a genuine buyer and you answered his biggest question at the outset!