Liveaboard financing?

[OA486AGC]

It seems very difficult to find a lender who works in the live aboard world - any suggestions for lenders that other live aboards have found success in getting financing?

Any help is appreciated!

Vrooman

 

[CharlieO.]

Does the lender need to know you're a liveaboard? They are financing the boat not the lifestyle.

 

[Jeff F]

Well, they're financing the boat based on your credit history etc. And as soon as you're living on a boat you're essentially homeless from a credit PoV.

Maintain a permanent dirt address somehow, and go cruising full time. That's the path of least resistance.

 

[Jeff F]

Next stop, insurance.

 

[Comodave]

Welcome aboard. Yes, it will be difficult to get both financing and insurance. But the financing will likely be more difficult. Party it depends on your credit and the boats value. I would start out buying the boat while you have a dirt residence and then at some future point move aboard. The insurance would be something I would check before buying to make sure you can actually get it before you take the financial plunge. Peter Ricks at Novamar is an outstanding insurance agent. He is a member here, Pau Hana. Maybe give him a call and see what he advises. 206-350-5051

 

[tiltrider1]

Actually Insurance is not an issue in Puget Sound. Liveaboard moorage is an issue and if you don’t have specific “Liveaboard Moorage” you could be in big trouble. Lots of people make the mistake of getting moorage and then moving on to the boat only to get evicted from the slip.

I don’t know any lenders in Seattle who will finance a boat for thE purpose of being a liveaboard. You will need to claim you live at home and then after you get the boat you can move out of the house and on to the boat.

The minute you say liveaboard your banker is done talking to you.

If you did any kind of a liveaboard search on the forum you would see lots of threads discussing the challenges of living on a boat in the Puget Sound.

 

[Jeff F]

I recently listened to an AGLCA podcast interview with an insurance broker. He said (I'm paraphrasing) that ticking the liveaboard box reduced his choice of underwriters by something like 80%

Not really applicable to the OP it sounds like, but it caught my attention.

 

[Portage_Bay]

I'll second what tiltrider says re liveaboard moorage on Puget Sound. I've done it several times over the years since the 70s. It's gone from as simple as buying the boat and moving aboard to nearly impossible to find liveaboard moorage. If you are serious start now and expect it to take a long time to find a place then work your way up the wait list.

Also understand you have no tenant's rights as a liveaboard. The marina can end the agreement at any time for any reason worth no recourse.

 

[Benthic2]

I don't understand the bad rap that liveaboards get. There was a liveaboard next to my dad's boat and he'd always call us if anything seemed strange, he'd throw an extra line or fender on if my dad couldn't get to the boat for an impending storm. There were about a dozen liveaboards in the club and they were all great. They each looked out for their little neighborhood.

I think if a marina is worried about a particular problem, they should solve that specific problem. If you don't want clothes drying on a line, make a rule for that. If you don't want an industrial trash barrel in the cockpit, make a rule for that. A decent liveaboard should be a huge asset to a marina. Regulating all liveaboards good and bad seems like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

 

[Jeff F]

I think if a marina is worried about a particular problem, they should solve that specific problem.

What if they think their problem is poor people?

Not throwing a grenade, I hope

ETA: it's a natural progression. Waterfront gets super expensive, driven by distant investment. Operations get squeezed by said investors. New boat owners having spent $1M+ are plentiful and not price sensitive.

 

[Portage_Bay]

I don't understand the bad rap that liveaboards get. There was a liveaboard next to my dad's boat and he'd always call us if anything seemed strange, he'd throw an extra line or fender on if my dad couldn't get to the boat for an impending storm. There were about a dozen liveaboards in the club and they were all great. They each looked out for their little neighborhood.

I think if a marina is worried about a particular problem, they should solve that specific problem. If you don't want clothes drying on a line, make a rule for that. If you don't want an industrial trash barrel in the cockpit, make a rule for that. A decent liveaboard should be a huge asset to a marina. Regulating all liveaboards good and bad seems like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

There seem to be at least two things at play against liveaboards in Washington State. One is the perception that liveaboards are undesirables. Unfortunately in far too many cases well founded. Poorly kept boats unable to get underway, the dock and common areas cluttered up, an extra car in the parking lot full up as storage never turning a wheel. People looking for a way to beat the high cost of housing. I've seen far too many examples of that. The other is the State Dept of Ecology is trying to cut down the number of liveaboards. I can only speculate on the reasons why. But they are trying to eliminate liveaboards and in marinas that want liveaboards cap the number.

 

[Snug Harbor]

Find a local marine finance broker to work with. We've just seen a couple liveaboard programs being offered here in New England so it's possible. Brokers work with several banks and credit unions, often over 20 different sources so they can match you up with what you need.

The age of a boat is another hurdle, most don't want to finance boats over 20 years old...but some will. Same thing with insurance, you need to shop around.

 

[Simi 60]

What if they think their problem is poor people?

Not throwing a grenade, I hope

Poor people generally don't live in marinas
Well they don't in Oz, marina berths with liveaboard fees are $$$

 

[NorthernMariner]

This is who I used in Canada in 2019 https://toyloan.com/
They may be able to advise re USA or even finance?
I didn't say anything about living aboard and I owned my own home at the time. Primarily, they seemed to be interested in my credit score and income to debt ratio.

 

[Pete Meisinger]

I guess I would define a true "Liveaboard" as someone who lives aboard 24/7/365. Meaning no dirt home. I wonder how many actually fit this description?

pete

 

[jbloyd]

For those responses saying "marinas should", in the PNW most marinas are restricted to the number of "liveaboard" slips by city or county ordinance. Others have privately owned slips that may be leased out and an owners association setting the rules. Saying they should do something changes nothing. There is no leverage available to a seeker. The demand is so high marina's can do pretty much whatever they want that is legal. The waiting lists for liveaboard slots usually start at 2 years and go up from there. You will normally be charged a fee for getting on a waiting list. If you want better odds, you will sign up on several, each charging $100 and up per year. Most of the most sought-after marinas will require that you become a tenant before you can apply to become a live-aboard and, the tenant slips will probably have a multi-year waiting list. Don't expect the situation to improve anytime soon. Retain your dirt home and tell the truth to the lender (you will be cruising as much as possible during the season). Tell the insurance company the truth (the main purpose of the vessel is cruising).

 

[tiltrider1]

I guess I would define a true "Liveaboard" as someone who lives aboard 24/7/365. Meaning no dirt home. I wonder how many actually fit this description?

pete

You would be shocked at the number. Let’s take one marina in Seattle. It has 1200 slips. Officially it allows 350 liveaboards. 95% of theses are 24/7/365. 5% are snowbirds most of who live the winter in Hawaii or Mexico. Then there are what we refer to as Sneakaboards. They live on their boat 24/7/365 but they are not legal however if you are low profile you don’t get caught. It is believed that there are 550 liveaboard boats in this marina.

Now is this a problem? Yes, but for who? There is more trash, more water consumption and more issues between neighbors but the marina does charge
$100 a month so they can’t complain. What about the real boater who is looking for moorage but can’t get a slip because of all the liveaboards who are taking up the space with boats that never leave the dock. Is he In titled to more rights than anyone else who wants a slip?

There is a problem but it’s really hard to see what the solution is.

 

[Jeff F]

There is a problem but it’s really hard to see what the solution is.

Interesting. It seems like a natural capitalist solution is to keep raising prices until demand = supply. Not that I'd advocate for that, but it does seem like the likely outcome over time.

 

[tiltrider1]

Interesting. It seems like a natural capitalist solution is to keep raising prices until demand = supply. Not that I'd advocate for that, but it does seem like the likely outcome over time.

The problem is that the liveaboards can afford the price hikes better than the recreational boaters. At the point you chase out the liveaboards you will have chased out almost all the boats.

 

[Jeff F]

The problem is that the liveaboards can afford the price hikes better than the recreational boaters. At the point you chase out the liveaboards you will have chased out almost all the boats.

I'm not at all familiar with the Seattle market, so forgive me for speaking broadly. I've very sympathetic to liveaboards.

When there are recreational boaters eager to buy 7 figure boats with no intent to live aboard but constrained by slip availability I have to think that the market can respond, somehow. Perhaps I misunderstand the situation there.

 

[klee wyck]

I'm not at all familiar with the Seattle market, so forgive me for speaking broadly. I've very sympathetic to liveaboards.

When there are recreational boaters eager to buy 7 figure boats with no intent to live aboard but constrained by slip availability I have to think that the market can respond, somehow. Perhaps I misunderstand the situation there.

I am certain the ‘market’ would like to respond. But, the regulatory environment in that geography will never allow that. Period.

 

[mvweebles]

Let's net it out. Many newbies hatch a plan about how its cheaper to live on a boat than rent an apartment or buy a house in a waterfront area. All based on easily discernable cost of a decent sized boat.

Where their plan falls apart is (1) finding a liveaboard slip; and (2) getting insurance. I have to wonder if the insurance problem is less about liveaboard request and more about a boat that is typically much larger than their credentiala support

Most harbor masters I've met love people who use their boats as boats. Not so fond of folks who use their boats as cheap housing


Peter .

 

[Jeff F]

I have to wonder if the insurance problem is less about liveaboard request and more about a boat that is typically much larger than their credentiala support

My suspicion is that it goes a little deeper than that. Liveaboards may suffer a hit to credit, as mentioned earlier. There may also be a hit to insurability for similar reasons.

I was in financial services for a large part of my working life. If you don't meet a prescribed set of criteria you're suspect, from a ratings point of view.

 

[Delta Riverat]

I guess I would define a true "Liveaboard" as someone who lives aboard 24/7/365. Meaning no dirt home. I wonder how many actually fit this description?

pete

The slip across from me, the slip 2 down and 2 up from me. That's 3 boats in a 20 meter radius with 5 people living in them 24/7/365

 

[Jeff F]

The slip across from me, the slip 2 down and 2 up from me. That's 3 boats in a 20 meter radius with 5 people living in them 24/7/365

There are a couple of hundred in Toronto. I'm at a winter liveaboard marina here Nov-Apr with about 35 boats.

 

[tiltrider1]

My suspicion is that it goes a little deeper than that. Liveaboards may suffer a hit to credit, as mentioned earlier. There may also be a hit to insurability for similar reasons.

I was in financial services for a large part of my working life. If you don't meet a prescribed set of criteria you're suspect, from a ratings point of view.

Insurance is only an issue for those with no boating experience. Financing is an issue for all liveaboards regardless of credit score. The issue comes from regulations. Boat loans come under a different category than home loans. When the bank hears that you will be living on the boat they won’t do a boat loan. The boat doesn’t qualify for a home loan or a mobile home loan so now you are stuck in no man’s land.

Many are able to get their boat financed as a boat and then move on after the fact. This could get them in trouble with the bank but the bank rarely investigates loans the are performing.

 

[tiltrider1]

Let's net it out. Many newbies hatch a plan about how its cheaper to live on a boat than rent an apartment or buy a house in a waterfront area. All based on easily discernable cost of a decent sized boat.

Where their plan falls apart is (1) finding a liveaboard slip; and (2) getting insurance. I have to wonder if the insurance problem is less about liveaboard request and more about a boat that is typically much larger than their credentiala support

Most harbor masters I've met love people who use their boats as boats. Not so fond of folks who use their boats as cheap housing


Peter .

This is accurate. I would say financing is a greater issue than insurance. Pau Hana is able to get these inexperienced people insurance. Boat can’t leave the dock with out a licensed captain but since they only plan to live on it the boat never leaves the dock.

 

[FWT]

Let's net it out. Many newbies hatch a plan about how its cheaper to live on a boat than rent an apartment or buy a house in a waterfront area. All based on easily discernable cost of a decent sized boat.

Where their plan falls apart is (1) finding a liveaboard slip; and (2) getting insurance. I have to wonder if the insurance problem is less about liveaboard request and more about a boat that is typically much larger than their credentiala support

Most harbor masters I've met love people who use their boats as boats. Not so fond of folks who use their boats as cheap housing


Peter .

^^^^ This

If you own a marina, the slip rates you can command are at least in part based on a perception of where you stand on the "nice" to "shabby" scale.

And that perception can be affected quite a bit by the condition of the boats sitting in it.

Related to that is the dock queen thing. Do the math and it can be a lot cheaper to get a floating condo that sits in a nice marina with all the amenities, than ownership of a beach condo. One of those on your dock with owners and a stream of guests sitting in the cockpit all weekend drinking beer and blaring music is a downer.

 

[Jeff F]

This is accurate. I would say financing is a greater issue than insurance. Pau Hana is able to get these inexperienced people insurance. Boat can’t leave the dock with out a licensed captain but since they only plan to live on it the boat never leaves the dock.

Ah, ok. The boat is purely acting as a houseboat.

So you guys have lots of floating homes too, right? Are they in dedicated communities, or willy nilly?

Sorry if I'm going off topic. I've been to Vancouver and SF a few times, but never between.

 

[tiltrider1]

Floating home is a special class. They are only allowed in areas zoned for floating homes. They can not have propulsion and the sewage and water must be hard connected to the city.