Insurance and Navigation Restrictions

[Porgy]

What companies meet this description?

I was searching for “Pollyanna’s Rose Tinted Insurance Co. and Muffin Bakery” on the internet and turned up nothing.

My wife was an underwriter 40+ years and just spit out her coffee when I read her this. “… a real claims department that operates in-house but completely separate from underwriting. There should be no actual or perceived conflict of interest.”

The first thing adjusters do is run to underwriting to find out if there is any reason to deny the claim. An adjuster’s job is to pay out the minimum contractually obligated amount. They do not ignore opportunities to deny claims especially if there’s an underwriting issue.

“an agent of long standing calls in a favor or lets the company know ‘ this guy is a real sailor good risk”

Pretty sure that’s not in the actuarial tables or the underwriting manual. Underwriters really, really hate when agents try that BS and only humor them because they bring in business. Agents don’t care if a claim costs the insurance company profits as long as they get their commissions. And the insurance companies are aware of that.

If an underwriter approved a policy based on the “real sailor good risk” clause and something bad happened, they’d be out of a job in an instant.

 

[psneeld]

Not sure there are any absolutes in insurance.

I got insurance agencies to put in writing that I did not have to follow certain survey issues that others were made to. A few years back they let me do my own survey with designated photos when others had to do both land and water inspections.

I have talked to field inspectors on insurance claims and it seemed like they had a lot of latitude in reporting when determining ownership or contractor involvement. several I had ins with due to my marine career involvement.

 

[Hippocampus]

Have asked multiple brokers if it would be worthwhile to have and keep an active US captains license. Universal answer was not for a boat with no commercial activity. It was explained to me when calculating risk experience and years with no claims trumps all. If licensure demonstrates and confirms time on the water without claims on boats similar or larger than the boat to be insured then licensure is worthwhile documentation. But if you can demonstrate claim free ownership on equivalent or larger boats being licensed or not will not have an effect. If licensure demonstrates training it might have impact but if similar training (safety at sea, yachtmaster etc.) US licensure with not have additional impact. It was also explained to me vendors have developed a calculated range of risk. Multiple factors are involved. The boat, the owner/ operator, the limits of navigation and times among others. But there’s a point at which they will not lower premiums regardless of who the owner/operator is. Once you reach that point either by experience, licensure, training whatever that’s it. Experience with no claims with similar use is primary.

PS I’m sure you’re well past that point for the type of boat and range of navigation you do. Beyond that point personalization doesn’t operate to my understanding.

What was interesting insuring the current boat is I have minimal experience operating a coastal trawler but decades blue water sailing. I would have thought I would be judged a higher risk coastal and on motor. Broker explained I’ve owned and operated larger boats. Although I think coastal requires as much if not more attention to stay safe vendors assume I have those skills or will get them quickly as I’ve been safe on blue water. So being on my first large power makes no difference. So broker said I’d maxed out on lowering my premium. Then did my due diligence and heard the same from two other brokers. I’m not in the industry and they all may have been blowing smoke up my butt so would be interested in Porgy’s comments. Still think the level of personalization implied doesn’t occur. They have their algorithm and that’s it.

 

[Jeff F]

...Still think the level of personalization implied doesn’t occur. They have their algorithm and that’s it.

Yep. Each underwriter has their own. People might be surprised at the inputs.

 

[Airstream345]

Interesting. We're on our way up to SE and found out about the Red Shield May 15 limit the day we left (4/1). We planned to cross th 51st on 5/1 but now we have two extra weeks to kill.

Not terrible as we're adding things to our plan like PLI and more time in Deso but 5/15 seems somewhat arbitratry given spring weather systems in the PNW. If you have a good Wx window to make it across Cape Caution you go.

Seems like a number of boats that went up before us are getting better Wx than we are down here - currently in Nanaimo between gales waiting.

PS - Peter is also our guy and a good friend so I place a lot of weight on his perspective

 

[tcoop]

We have the same restrictions for the Columbia normally, with a Chubb policy. We talked to our agent at the boat show and he sent an endorsement request to Chubb. Shortly after we got the endorsement in the mail. There was no fee for the change. We are now good up to Yukatat through Sept. 15th.

It was a good experience with insurance, something I am not used to.

 

[jimfrens]

GIECO dropped us this year and this required us to seek a new insurance company. All the quotes I received from our broker, Peter, has navigation restrictions, no boating above the 51 longitude line from October to May 15th.

If they said “51 longitude” they don’t know what they’re talking about. 51 north latitude would be understandable.

 

[justinelsberry]

We just recently switched to a new carrier after 2 years with Markel.

Our old navigational territory was pretty restrictive: Inland waters of Puget Sound including a radius of 25 miles of Cape Flattery; the inside waters of British Columbia not north of 51 degrees north latitude or west of Hope Island, BC.

and the new policy is: 150 miles from a safe port, harbor, or anchorage in the United States, Canada, or the Pacific Coast of Mexico (not south of the Rio Santo Tomas, Mexico)

Premiums with the new policy are also half of the previous policy including a Liveaboard endorsement. Likely due to a few years without claims and increased experience on the boat. I also got my USCG captain credentials but they told me that really had no impact on the premiums.

Holly from Global Marine Insurance has been our agent for a few years and does a great job.

 

[garbler]

Yep. Each underwriter has their own. People might be surprised at the inputs.

It’s true most companies involve algorithms in risk percentage calculations but don’t kid yourself. Like all big business there is room for deal making and reaching out to keep a book of business.

Rick

 

[garbler]

Not sure there are any absolutes in insurance.

I got insurance agencies to put in writing that I did not have to follow certain survey issues that others were made to. A few years back they let me do my own survey with designated photos when others had to do both land and water inspections.

I have talked to field inspectors on insurance claims and it seemed like they had a lot of latitude in reporting when determining ownership or contractor involvement. several I had ins with due to my marine career involvement.

Insurance commissions by state hold the line on companies and agents. They won’t catch everything but if you report it they will look into it. Surveyors are not adjusters and must never be confused especially if per chance you end up in court. Big problem. Most surveyors don’t have repair backgrounds so most often let the assured pick his contractor then they are pretty much hands off except to review invoices and submit with their reports. I had shipyard and repair experience so I had no problem working with owners who had experience and were reasonable with their expectations.

As long as repairs and repair change orders were equal or something I could sell the company as equitable then no problem. But the yards knew I’d catch them if they cheated as I’d come in and pull time cards and materials. If I or other surveyors I know run into an owner who knows their stuff they get handled a bit differently. Not that the rules change but that the yard and I know that there is bound to be some negotiating and don’t assume they are you’re run of the mill boat owners

Remember no serious marine underwriter wants to take short cuts on repairs or violate code and safety specs. They want a safe boat to continue to insure and certainly a boat that after repairs has not lost value. It’s called indemnify.
Rick

 

[MYTraveler]

I am over my angst about these insurance issues these days. Insurance no longer works for me, and yes, I have formerly been a customer of Peter's office.

Navigational restrictions are more prevalent, flexibility with them is waning, premiums have increased substantially, and requirements for being underwritten in the way of experience, size changes, and surveys have become more ominous and expensive.

Okay, given the deterioration in claims history due to increasingly violent weather, and increasingly incompetent boat owners, I do not take the view that the underwriters are the bad guys. It just is what it is. That makes it a bad deal for what I consider to be my own personal risk. I just have chosen not to buy insurance for my own risk and instead have chosen to underwrite myself.
Of course, I am required to carry liability, but I consider the premiums I am quoted for liability to be a very good value. Fairly priced and therefore an almost unquantifiable risk I would not take on myself, even if I were not required to have it.

Here is a great example. I have a boat in the Sea of Cortez. My nav restrictions said that I needed to be north of 25 latitude by June 1 and remain there until November 1. I asked for a variance to be at 24.16 during that period. The 5500-dollar premium within nav limits was already a bad deal but to stay zero point eight four degrees south of an arbitrary line would have cost me 9500 dollars.
No thanks. Liability only in that jurisdiction cost me all of $800 from Chubb which I acquired without an agent directly in five minutes.
No brainer.

YMMV

You probably could have kept the property coverage with a hurricane exclusion. That way, if the boat is damaged from some other cause you are covered.

 

[virgilio guma]

I dont know about the PNW but here in the USEC its absolutely normal to have navigation restrictions, during the hurricane season.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

If they said “51 longitude” they don’t know what they’re talking about. 51 north latitude would be understandable.

My opps

 

[SteveK]

My opps

jeez Tom, it is OOPS

 

[ronobrien]

If it were a Captain's sole concern to preserve his vessel he would never leave port.

 

[SDTugs]

I was searching for “Pollyanna’s Rose Tinted Insurance Co. and Muffin Bakery” on the internet and turned up nothing.

My wife was an underwriter 40+ years and just spit out her coffee when I read her this. “… a real claims department that operates in-house but completely separate from underwriting. There should be no actual or perceived conflict of interest.”

The first thing adjusters do is run to underwriting to find out if there is any reason to deny the claim. An adjuster’s job is to pay out the minimum contractually obligated amount. They do not ignore opportunities to deny claims especially if there’s an underwriting issue.

“an agent of long standing calls in a favor or lets the company know ‘ this guy is a real sailor good risk”

Pretty sure that’s not in the actuarial tables or the underwriting manual. Underwriters really, really hate when agents try that BS and only humor them because they bring in business. Agents don’t care if a claim costs the insurance company profits as long as they get their commissions. And the insurance companies are aware of that.

If an underwriter approved a policy based on the “real sailor good risk” clause and something bad happened, they’d be out of a job in an instant.

I can absolutely attest to this. My wife and I just bought our first bigger boat after having small boats up to 26'. We now have a 48'. I routinely had to send my resume, captains license (I am a career tugboat captain for the last 18 years) and was still told that I didn't have the required experience. Seemed strange to me with actual verifiable experience that I would have troubles getting insurance for my 48'.

I definitely don't know the back office part of insurance, but an 18 year career with no incidents seems like it would be enough. Not sure what me owning the boat would have to do with it.

In the end we got a policy out of an office in San Diego, underwritten by Concept Special Rick out of the UK, We ended up getting the entirety of the US West Coast, the West Coast of Mexico, and the Sea of Cortez with no seasonal limits as well as live aboard.

I am not certain what they have for Alaska and BC, but they were just fine for us.

 

[Portage_Bay]

Mind boggling isn't it? I recently told an insurance agent about my license. He asked for a photo copy. Upon receipt he said the underwriters might not accept that, they were looking for a Captain's license. When I told him that's what a Merchant Mariner's Credential as Master is he was confused.

I can absolutely attest to this. My wife and I just bought our first bigger boat after having small boats up to 26'. We now have a 48'. I routinely had to send my resume, captains license (I am a career tugboat captain for the last 18 years) and was still told that I didn't have the required experience. Seemed strange to me with actual verifiable experience that I would have troubles getting insurance for my 48'.

I definitely don't know the back office part of insurance, but an 18 year career with no incidents seems like it would be enough. Not sure what me owning the boat would have to do with it.

In the end we got a policy out of an office in San Diego, underwritten by Concept Special Rick out of the UK, We ended up getting the entirety of the US West Coast, the West Coast of Mexico, and the Sea of Cortez with no seasonal limits as well as live aboard.

I am not certain what they have for Alaska and BC, but they were just fine for us.

 

[Piper5314]

Insurance being dropped!

Hello guys, I'm new here, and was just cruising and reading. Just FYI, only because I use to be in the insurance industry. If you have been thinking about shopping for better coverage, don't wait until you get a non-renewal notice. That is the same as being cancelled! When you apply for new coverage with different company, there is a question that asked "Have you ever been cancelled or denied coverage. Non-Renewed is just that, and when you get non-renewed, you become "High Risk", and your name go into a database, so all future companies can be aware that you are one of those High Risk Folks, when they determine weather or not they will quote you. Regardless, if they do quote you......your quote will be at a premium because of that Non-Renewal notice you got. This High Risk classification last for 7 years. Ask me how I know this.


At the time of my Non-Renewal, some years ago. I had my primary home, six rental homes, a boat, 4 automobiles, and an airplane. My insurance premiums tripled on everything I owned, with the exception of the airplane for some reason. Plus, I like to never found a company that would cover my whole package. That lasted 7 years, and then went back to normal.


So, I say all that to say, if your new premiums are not to your liking, you take the first step, and seek a new policy elsewhere. Don't wait until you get dropped.