FSBO Experiences / Advice (Buyer)

[DWJensen]

The thread about DIY sales made me wonder - How many out there have successfully completed a FSBO sale as a buyer? [Yes, I did a search, and did a good bit of reading: Posts asking a lot of what I'm asking and responses arguing for and against, but I didn't see a lot of follow up about their results from those who asked.]

We've bought and sold boats before and have always used professional brokers (for higher $$ sales) and are currently in the market. We have a buyer's broker helping with our search and viewings, but we're pretty much limited to brokerage vessels this way and I see a lot of FSBO ads and listings out there these days, some of which do interest us. (I did mention to our broker that we would be looking at FSBO listings on our own but have not brought up having him involved in a PP deal)

I understand that generic contracts can be found online and modified for use, but how do you handle things like deposit and escrow, abstract of title, etc. absent a professional company? I see in the other thread that some have had a simple exchange of funds for a signed USCG Bill of Sale, but no mention of deposits/survey/closing and all. When we were looking for our last big boat (back in 2009) we found a FSBO that we liked but the seller was against any third-party involvement and as a result, we didn't go any further with that deal. I understand there has to be a bit of trust on both sides, but I can't say as I'm terribly comfortable with the idea of handing somebody that I don't know a check for $20k to hold a boat, and by the same token I wouldn't expect a seller to take a boat off the market without a deposit and/or some means of enforcing the contract.

Have any of you ever used a buyer's broker who was paid solely by the buyer to handle a sale for say a partial (5%?) commission? Is this even a thing?

How about the private escrow companies? What kind of costs are involved here and are there any legitimate reasons that a seller wouldn't want to involve a professional company if the buyer was footing the bill?

FYI, I'm in FL and we're talking about a $200kish purchase.

Thanks,

Daz

 

[psneeld]

I bought my trawler off a Craig's list add.... not a hitch.

Sale was for well less than $100K which might be a contributing matter Wouldn't probably happen on a multiple $100K deal.

The guy had pulled the boat off Craig's list the same day I saw it and got lucky calling him to save the deal as he was going to hand it to a broker.

Swapped money and paperwork at his local bank with a notary and wire transfer. Took less than a 1/2 hour.

No issues and 12 years later. Even the USCG doc paperwork went through quick.

I plan on selling for by owner...but again... at the price I will be asking.... adding fingers in the pot does no one any good.

 

[Portage_Bay]

A marine title company can handle escrow, title research and transfer of ownership, state registration if required and taxes due. Fees are generally quite reasonable. If buying direct from the owner I see no reason to involve a buyer's broker other than to hold your hand.

One thing that gets forgotten is transfer of the ship's radio station license so you can keep the MMSI #.

The thread about DIY sales made me wonder - How many out there have successfully completed a FSBO sale as a buyer? [Yes, I did a search, and did a good bit of reading: Posts asking a lot of what I'm asking and responses arguing for and against, but I didn't see a lot of follow up about their results from those who asked.]

We've bought and sold boats before and have always used professional brokers (for higher $$ sales) and are currently in the market. We have a buyer's broker helping with our search and viewings, but we're pretty much limited to brokerage vessels this way and I see a lot of FSBO ads and listings out there these days, some of which do interest us. (I did mention to our broker that we would be looking at FSBO listings on our own but have not brought up having him involved in a PP deal)

I understand that generic contracts can be found online and modified for use, but how do you handle things like deposit and escrow, abstract of title, etc. absent a professional company? I see in the other thread that some have had a simple exchange of funds for a signed USCG Bill of Sale, but no mention of deposits/survey/closing and all. When we were looking for our last big boat (back in 2009) we found a FSBO that we liked but the seller was against any third-party involvement and as a result, we didn't go any further with that deal. I understand there has to be a bit of trust on both sides, but I can't say as I'm terribly comfortable with the idea of handing somebody that I don't know a check for $20k to hold a boat, and by the same token I wouldn't expect a seller to take a boat off the market without a deposit and/or some means of enforcing the contract.

Have any of you ever used a buyer's broker who was paid solely by the buyer to handle a sale for say a partial (5%?) commission? Is this even a thing?

How about the private escrow companies? What kind of costs are involved here and are there any legitimate reasons that a seller wouldn't want to involve a professional company if the buyer was footing the bill?

FYI, I'm in FL and we're talking about a $200kish purchase.

Thanks,

Daz

 

[Trentmcb]

You can use your own broker

I recently bought a Riviera that I found on Craigslist and offered the broker I had been working with 5k to facilitate the deal. As I knew very little about boats, or the Florida region I bought in in, I figured this was money well spent.

 

[Blissboat]

[A]re there any legitimate reasons that a seller wouldn't want to involve a professional company if the buyer was footing the bill?

Can't think of one.

 

[DonW28]

Can't think of one.

+1. I'd run away from a deal if someone refused me as a buyer paying for a professional service. I started the other thread primarily as a way to see if a professional firm would benefit both sides. And I think for the $$ there is benefit and safety to all involved when you your talking this kind of money.



Don

 

[kthoennes]

Not counting our small, trailer-able boats, we bought our last two bigger ones on Craigslist and then eBay. Went very well both times, although they were both under $100K. Before that we made offers on two others with a seller's broker and both fell through (survey or repair problems that we couldn't resolve so we walked away). Sold our 32 on Craigslist, but that was a relatively small sale. I suppose if we were buying boats well into the six figures it might be different but my impression so far is that brokers just add one more communication layer or barrier to a transaction.

My dad was a yacht broker in Florida for a while and told me all about "value added" -- brokers can arrange slips, negotiate for repairs, they have contacts with local surveyors, escrow contacts, in general smooth out those complexities that come with a larger transaction. When we bought our current boat 1,500 miles away we handled everything ourselves, from receiving slip to the paperwork to the FCC license to the trucking to the upgrades around the sale and shipping. Definitely very time consuming but it sure taught me a lot and I wouldn't have traded that education for convenience of working with a broker for at least some of those details.

 

[rgano]

See post number 2 above. I was a seller on the opposite side of a similar sale of my 1972 Grand Banks 42 Classic in 2015. The buyer ordered a professional survey AND sea trial of my boat (me doing the operating) before he even showed up in town on a Saturday. By Monday noon, he and boat disappeared over the horizon with money wired, notarized bill of sale, USCG documentation transfer initiated, and several hours of instruction by me both underway and moored. I had a contract on the web page I had developed for the sale, but we never even discussed it as a solid sense of trust was developed. At the $200K range, if I were selling/buying, it would be comforting to have a broker help out.

 

[slowgoesit]

Our first two boats over 34' were purchased without any brokers being involved. The first was on a handshake, the 2nd one, we used a maritime escrow company to handle funds pending successful survey. All we did was hand them a copy of the signed contract, with contingencies written in (survey, obtaining insurance, financing, etc) and once the contingencies were satisfied (we had to sign a statement from them to that effect) we wired the remaining funds to them, and they released those funds to the seller. They also handled the transfer of documentation, deposit, etc. Easy Peasy. I believe they charged in the range of $350 to $500.00. Money well spent.

The third boat was represented by a Seller's broker. We didn't retain our own Buyer's broker, but the process went through without a hitch. We used the brokers contract, with a few additions, which we insisted on, and a few clauses deleted which were, shall we say, not in the best interests of the buyer, or in one case with either the buyer OR seller. Overall the transaction went off without any hitches.

Regarding so called "value added" services from brokers, . . . . .

We arranged our own slip
Negotiated our own repairs,
would NEVER go with a broker recommended surveyor, unless he came recommended through other sources first.
For the maritime escrow service we asked for recommendations from other boat owners, and DID end up going with the recommendation of the broker, because the escrow service he recommended was also highly recommended by other buyers.

In conclusion: For us, the most important part of the transaction is the Purchase and Sales Agreement. It protects both parties from misunderstandings, and even holds broker (if used) to the letter of the contract. Don't be afraid of purchasing from a private individual. Those boats can usually be had for at LEAST the 10% fee less that a broker would charge.

 

[Retriever]

I bought my current boat and sold my old Nordic Tug 37 without a broker. The process really wasn't much different than if we'd used brokers. Pacific Maritime Title in Seattle had a contract that we used (with slight modification), they held all earnest money, and handled all the paperwork, USCG documentation, $$$ settlement, etc. Their fee was quite reasonable--under $1000 as I recall.

It probably did help that I already knew the people I was buying the Nordhavn from and the people buying my Nordic Tug were friends of friends.

 

[Bacchus]

I have done boat sales / buys both ways... w & w/o brokers involved.
I think the key to success w a FSBO is to have a good written purchase offer / contract that covers deposits, payments, (& $transfer methods) contingencies (inspections, surveys, title, owner equip not transferring, w/ est timing, etc)
If escrow is desired there are services that can satisfy that. As a buyer an important step is a title search to confirm true ownership.
I have purchased a motorhome privately and used the chase contract model modifies as necessary for MH vs boat. In that case the fact that owner had a loan and title transfer was delayed beyond inspection and taking possession. I simply witheld a significant $ amout and had completed searches to gain legitimacy of the seller.

 

[DDW]

I bought my trawler that way, deal was in the $300K range. Contract was hand written and about a paragraph long. Deal closed by me handing over a cashiers check standing in front of the desk at a small UPS office, as they had a notary to notarize the CG ownership papers.

It depends a great deal on how much you trust the seller. A truly dishonest seller can screw you right through the protection of two brokers. I did not know the sellers prior to seeing the boat (this was an across-the-country deal too) but judged them trustworthy. Had anything seemed at all suspicious I would have gotten an escrow and title company involved.

 

[Shrew]

I bought my current boat FSBO. We used a marine broker who also had an escrow company. He escrowed the deposit. Once the survey and seatrial were completed we went down to the bank (We both had accounts in the same bank) and I got a cashiers check right in front of him. Handed it to him and he signed the title over right there in the bank. He then walked up to same teller and deposited the cash in his account. That broker only took 2% which included the Yachtworld listing to sell the boat, paid by the seller.

I bought a house cash about a a year and a half ago. We used a title company escrow cash and to transfer the title.

The only time I wouldn't escrow money for a transfer is if the deal is cash, and cash (not cashiers or certified check) and title are being passed at the same time.

 

[Seevee]

I'm pretty much a FSBO guy, and about 90% of the houses, boats and planes have been FSBO without issue.



I've used brokers occasionally to sell, but never to buy. Overall experience with them has been iffy. The toughest deal have been when I'm selling by myself and the buyer brings in his broker. I've killed many deals because the broker wants too much and is way too complicated.



In buying, I ALWAYS want to do my own paperwork, agreement, closing papers, etc, etc. The brokers make it WAY to complicated with too many conditions that protect them and put responsibility on the buyer/seller. And I use trusts, which they just don't understand.



For escrow, if needed, I'll use MY trustee or attorney (rarely). Never had an issue. I'll also handle the title work, but hire a title company, and may get title insurance... depending.



One thing.... the title never gets pushed across the table without cash coming in from the other side.

 

[Snug Harbor]

I've been a broker for 20 years. I'm a YBAA Certified broker and recently attended a webinar dealing with ethics and transaction related lawsuits as part of our continuing education series. In today's lawsuit happy society you have to be careful selling anything, especially something as complex, expensive, and potentially dangerous as a boat. I was astounded at the variety and number of suits that have been brought to court by both parties but mostly by buyers. I'd be careful using a "contract" found on the internet...

 

[Brooksie]

I have bought and sold several boats w/o a broker. As a seller I have given much more detailed and complete information than a broker would ever have had about my boats. As a buyer I have found owners much more helpful than brokers. I think this is especially true in an area where high priced boats are changing hands.
No offense to brokers here but no matter what a broker calls himself, he is first & foremost working for himself.

 

[jbloyd]

Buyer's broker

We have worked with Curtis Stokes about 3 years ago. I know that he is a full-service broker and, at the time, we contracted with him to help us find a boat. He not only worked with those sellers willing to co-broker but, would also work with us to secure a vessel at a percentage (which we were willing to pay), if the sale could not be co-brokered. At that time he also had a long list of services he would provide that was like a buffet menu (you paid only for those services selected) if you only wanted to have help in buying FSBO. His business has grown tremendously over the years and he is very well-respected in the boating community. The last time I talked to him personally was when he came to Anacortes, WA for the Defever Rendezvous last September. I have also met and talked with some of his affiliate brokers and found them to be very knowledgeable and helpful. I am not affiliated with him or his company in any way and, even though I will not be offered (nor will I accept) anything for saying so, he has my full trust and endorsement. Just Google "Curtis Stokes".

 

[Finally Fun Again]

We sold our trawler without a broker for nearly $700,000. Purchaser utilized his loan company to handle escrow, etc. We were prepared to open escrow via our Bank. Simple. Purchaser did do a survey (required for loan) and had a lawyer review the contract. Simple. Quick. Both parties happy as we passed a part of the potential big commission if it'd been listed onto the Purchaser......Obviously, Ignore those Craigslist crooks who want to 'send their person down to pick up the boat (sight unseen!) and leave you a check...." :lol:

 

[DWJensen]

One thing that gets forgotten is transfer of the ship's radio station license so you can keep the MMSI #.

Is this something new? Both my FCC "Radio Station Authorization" certificate and "Radiotelephone Operator Permit" (issued in 2011) specifically state on them that they are not transferrable.

 

[rgano]

I transferred the MMSI of my boat to the new owner with a simple email to BoatUS which is where the MMSI was registered. Had I gone the FCC station license more suited to international cruisers, it would have been a whole different problem.

 

[slowgoesit]

I transferred the MMSI of my boat to the new owner with a simple email to BoatUS which is where the MMSI was registered. Had I gone the FCC station license more suited to international cruisers, it would have been a whole different problem.

To transfer MMSI through federal gov't, from old owner to new owner requires the seller to fill out a simple form with the FCC to "deregister" the MMSI #, the buyer to register with the FCC, obtain (I think it's called a "FRN" number). Then go to the FCC site, request a new Call Sign, and Radio Station License, putting in the old MMSI #, and paying $220.00 for a 10 year license/registration. We received the Radio Station License, and new Call Sign via e-mail within a matter of hours.
Then we dug out the manuals for our AIS and DSC VHF, to update the Call Sign, and new vessel name.
It was kind of involved, but not really difficult.
Note: On some of the AIS following websites, your new name and call sign may take a day or so to change over from the old name.
We just did this last month, so I don’t think the procedure will have changed in that time. Best of luck in figuring it out!
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[Ventana]

My first live aboard purchase, more than 25 years ago was bought and then resold through the same broker. I knew almost nothing, had dreams of sailing the world, and found a broker with similar dreams, a lot of boating knowledge, and almost unlimited patience. For over a year I would randomly show up at the brokerage, he would hand me keys to boats he thought I would like, and then would join me on the boat later to answer questions after I had a chance to look them over alone.
My point is a good, knowledgable broker can be a huge asset for a buyer just getting into boating.
The past several boats I have bought and sold myself, with no issues. I have a surveyor that I trust completely, and am willing to pay for him to travel to a boat rather than use someone else. Paperwork and money handling is done through Pacific Maritime Title in Seattle. There are others that can do this, but I know the folks there and they are very competent even with the various curve balls that tend to pop up with boat buying and selling.
The other thing to consider is that brokers cost money, and your time is worth something. Figure out if the time a broker is saving you is worth more than what you would pay them, and you will know if you should use a broker. Everything they do can be done by you with a bit of learning.

 

[Drummer79]

This may be the wrong place to ask, as in topic wise, but I've been talking to a broker, as well as shopping boattrader.com, which puts me into contact with many brokers, theoretically. I send off the emails from the site, but don't get responses. I'm a very interested buyer, but can't seem to get anyone on yachtworld or anywhere else to actually respond to messages. Wrong time of year? Brokers all really that busy that messing with non million dollar boats isn't worth the time? What am I doing wrong?

 

[markpj23]

This may be the wrong place to ask, as in topic wise, but I've been talking to a broker, as well as shopping boattrader.com, which puts me into contact with many brokers, theoretically. I send off the emails from the site, but don't get responses. I'm a very interested buyer, but can't seem to get anyone on yachtworld or anywhere else to actually respond to messages. Wrong time of year? Brokers all really that busy that messing with non million dollar boats isn't worth the time? What am I doing wrong?

Just today I filled out the contact form on boattrader and got a call from the owner about 20 minutes later. I believe that silence means the boat is no longer available.


Hang in there - there are still some good boats coming to market but you have to be quick. The ones that you've been looking at for weeks are usually still there for reasons that are not good.



Oh - and the lazy brokers who claim that "it takes time" to have a listing removed from "the internet." What a croc - been 6 weeks already and they just want you to call so they can push a different boat on you. OK end of rant....