Boat buying nightmares

[Choices]

Yeah. What's the next chapter?

 

[BruceK]

...The new boat buying process has been so much nicer, a complete delight (other than the wait for it to be built). The complete polar opposite in every way from my experience trying to buy a used boat.

It`s my impression some boat brokers here migrated from used cars after lack of success there.

Seems to me boat sales here are also on the wane. Our central bank, which promised no interest rate increase before 2024 despite many financial commentators suggesting otherwise, is busy raising rates. The blunt instrument of interest rates is already affecting discretionary expenditure, a recession is possible. One major bank thinks increases now will be reductions in 2023. The average home loan here is 750K so a 1% interest rate rise is substantial and bound to have an affect on spending, boats included, which of course is the central bank`s aim.

 

[Nick14]

It`s my impression some boat brokers here migrated from used cars after lack of success there.

Seems to me boat sales here are also on the wane. Our central bank, which promised no interest rate increase before 2024 despite many financial commentators suggesting otherwise, is busy raising rates. The blunt instrument of interest rates is already affecting discretionary expenditure, a recession is possible. One major bank thinks increases now will be reductions in 2023. The average home loan here is 750K so a 1% interest rate rise is substantial and bound to have an affect on spending, boats included, which of course is the central bank`s aim.

That's the tool the Federal reserve has to tame inflation - interest rate increases. It's a choice of the lesser of two evils - runaway price increases vs. higher interest rates. Inflation is happening because too much money is chasing too few goods. It's a combination of the proverbial supply chain disruptions that have reduced manufacturing output, with the U.S. pouring $5 trillion in pandemic relief spending into the economy.

Clearly financial support was necessary during the pandemic for all those who lost their jobs, and one can debate whether $5 trillion might have been too much, but the bottom line is you can't shovel $5 trillion into the economy without causing an increase in demand and prices. The only measure available now (as imperfect as it is) is, as you said, to decrease demand by making credit more difficult to get and therefore goods more expensive.

An even worse scenario would be stagflation, climbing prices along with stagnant incomes. I remember the years from around 1974-1982 all too clearly (since I entered the job market for the first time back then). Inflation and unemployment were both high, for years. It was not a pretty time.

Regarding the boat market, it may well take some time for some sellers and brokers to adjust to changing economic realities. There's an amusing (and completely unsubstantiated) aspect of human behavior that seems to believe once a price has reached a certain level, it must always return to that level. Of course that's nonsense, countless company stock prices have never returned to their one-time highs. But I imagine some sellers whose boats were worth $X not long ago will have a hard time accepting that now they're selling for anything less than $X. "But prices will come back", "but my boat is different", "I'll wait for the market to come back."

Break out the popcorn and watch the show about to unfold.

 

[Nick14]

But now you have to tell us what you are building....

Yeah. What's the next chapter?

LOL, thank you! As you might imagine I'm giddy with excitement about it, like a little kid again (despite my very un-kid like advanced age).

Purchase agreement is signed, deposit check is cashed. Details to follow soon.

 

[cyranog]

After reading all of these horror stories, my wife and I feel blessed that we had a drama free boat buying experience. Been looking at trawlers online for over a year and in serious buyer mode since March. We did retain a buyer representative, which proved well worth it. In late March we saw a 2005 Monk 36 online and we made a full price offer, which was accepted. Flew to Florida the next day to get onboard with our rep. Liked what we saw and submitted a purchase agreement, with contingencies. Haul-out, survey, and sea trial was three weeks later. Seller agreed to a price reduction due to relatively minor survey items. Boat is now ours and on July 4 we’ll become full-time live-aboards. Couldn’t have asked for a better purchase experience.

 

[Art]

After reading all of these horror stories, my wife and I feel blessed that we had a drama free boat buying experience. Been looking at trawlers online for over a year and in serious buyer mode since March. We did retain a buyer representative, which proved well worth it. In late March we saw a 2005 Monk 36 online and we made a full price offer, which was accepted. Flew to Florida the next day to get onboard with our rep. Liked what we saw and submitted a purchase agreement, with contingencies. Haul-out, survey, and sea trial was three weeks later. Seller agreed to a price reduction due to relatively minor survey items. Boat is now ours and on July 4 we’ll become full-time live-aboards. Couldn’t have asked for a better purchase experience.

Congrats!! That's how it's supposed to work...

 

[WayoutMatt]

Thanks for this discussion. It is very interesting and as I will be in the market for a trawler in about 6 months, I am curious to see if the high price of fuel will change the market from a seller's to buyer's market.

 

[Art]

Thanks for this discussion. It is very interesting and as I will be in the market for a trawler in about 6 months, I am curious to see if the high price of fuel will change the market from a seller's to buyer's market.

From what I see oncoming, having been a young heavily leveraged business person and at that age living through the President-Jimmy Carter/Fed Chair-Paul Volker years [late 70's early 80's] of super high inflation then exorbitant interest rates to subdue that runaway inflation [mortgage rates in CA Sierra Nevada mountains reached nearly 20% - I still keep an amortization book from the early 80's that goes from a low of 10% to a high of 21%!!! That's F'n Crazy!

Grab a seat: As Ed Sullivan would say... We have a really big shew coming for you!

This time I have no leverage outstanding... just paid for good houses and fun toys. Not that I'll be able to sell em or use em very much for at least a while. LOL

News reports say inflation now is on average 8.5% over last year. That's a lie, pure and simple. Inside reports say it's closer to 20% and gaining speed as I type this post.

I just went to a major chain food store [Safeway] in northern SF Bay Area. Fresh-meat shelves were a little over 1/2 stocked. Prices compared to not long ago were way, way up.

I had weird, clear proof in the putting today: While I filled up my 1967 Wildcat muscle car with high test priced at $6.79.9 per gallon... the first $100 dollar bill I'd handed the cashier ran out before car reached full. So, I walked back in and handed him a $20. Immediately after I again began pumping... with my own eyes [made me blink to make sure I saw correctly]... I watched the per gallon reading on the pump suddenly jump-up to $6.89.9 per gallon. Then, while still watching the pump closely... it suddenly jumped back down to $6.79.9 per gal. WTF is going on?? Who, what, where are pump prices being set???

Inflation has again [like the 70's/80's] become similar to a runaway freight train; i.e., virtually unstoppable until its knocked off the tracks. It seems the only way to slow and then stop "Hyper-Inflation" is to choke off buying capability by raising interest rates till no one wants to nor can afford to borrow.

Thinking back to late 70's early 80's... I'd agree with Ed Sullivan: "This is gonna be a really big shew!!

For those of younger years... google Ed Sullivan and that quote. He was the top variety show host mid 20th Century. "The Ed Sullivan Show"

Happy Inflation / High Interest Rates Daze! - Art

 

[BruceK]

Problem is interest rates are an indiscriminate blunt instrument. Years ago housing loan rates hit 18% leading to what our PM(voted out thereafter) called "the recession we had to have" . Rates rose until the economy completely tanked. It takes the good judgement our central bank has already demonstrated it lacks to get it right and avoid killing the economy in the process.

 

[Art]

Problem is interest rates are an indiscriminate blunt instrument. Years ago housing loan rates hit 18% leading to what our PM(voted out thereafter) called "the recession we had to have" . Rates rose until the economy completely tanked. It takes the good judgement our central bank has already demonstrated it lacks to get it right and avoid killing the economy in the process.

Yup!

Interest rates are an unbeatable financial arm wrestling muscle that the public can never win in a match if the Fed wants to stop inflation. However - that same muscle could be used [if it were to be used correctly/thoughtfully] to consistently keep the economy in stable, functioning conditions.

Why the powers that be "seem" to so badly misread what levels to keep interest rates for the good of keeping the economy flowing along well makes me believe they have ulterior motives in desires to actually create economic down falls.

We could go on and debate about that till the cows come home!

Face it: We're soon gonna see a Really BIG [economic] Shew! LOL

 

[BruceK]

Art, you might appreciate this:

Here the central bank hung onto 0.01% interest base rate to reduce unemployment below 4%( I believe that around 5% of the available "employable" population are really unemployable), and to raise inflation to 2-3%. I still don`t get why inflation is desirable, why some "experts" want to devalue the currency, but they do.

 

[Seevee]

I don't deal with used boat brokers. They remind me of used car sales persons... yuck!

I do purchase from private owners. By asking questions, I can usually tell soon on phone if the owner is shooting straight... or not. If not shooting straight, I cordially thank em for their time and move on. When they are shooting straight, if rest of conversation regarding boat condition meets my approval, I'll visit them at their boat. From that point on the usual items occur as to whether or not I purchase the boat.

I've purchased and sold boats over the years. I make it simple by telling the truth on my side of the deal and make sure they are telling the truth on their side.

Totally agree and others have done the same. Have never had trouble finding FSBOs, and have written to everyone that has that boat I'm looking for. Done that for houses and planes, and only need one good deal, which is not that hard to find. Of the last 21 boats and 20 aircraft I've purchased, ALL have been private sales, and NONE have has any significant issues.



I'm not going to badmouth brokers, but they have a bad reputation for a reason. There's a lot of bad ones out there, and now, a lot of newbies jumping in to make a killing in commissions with no experience.



I was enjoying a drink with friends discussing the days events, when the guy next to me mentioned he just got his boat brokers license, he looked like a bum, half drunk and asked what he experience was, which he said, he had a friend that once owned a boat and he could sell anything. Yea!


And, I'll ask any question I wish, when buying a boat, as most of the adds are incomplete. I don't give a damn if it's a tire-kicker question... ALL questions are appropriate.... PERIOD.



NICK, Good on you for making a great choice and not putting up with the garbage that's out there today. Things will change.... always do. It's nuts to put up with the BS in this market.

 

[Helmsman]

Just saw a Beneteau Swift Trawer 35 I looked at pre-pandemic in Destin. I am pretty sure it is the same boat. Was for sale then for $459k, now $549k two years later. Boat wasn’t for us, but clean and lightly used at the time.

 

[Nick14]

And, I'll ask any question I wish, when buying a boat, as most of the adds are incomplete. I don't give a damn if it's a tire-kicker question... ALL questions are appropriate.... PERIOD.

NICK, Good on you for making a great choice and not putting up with the garbage that's out there today. Things will change.... always do. It's nuts to put up with the BS in this market.

Thanks SEEVEE. As much as I really wanted to buy a used boat, the truth is I don't need one. Honestly, no one needs a boat that badly that they should be willing to put up with having to debase themselves and be a subservient sucker to the capricious, unprofessional, arrogant whims of (some) brokers and (again some) greedy sellers to get one. If I bought one under these conditions, I'd feel like a fool every time I looked at it. Everyone is different and some might just see it as what has to be done to buy something in this market. But it just sucked all the fun out of it for me.

It's hard to imagine all the (much smarter than I am) economists being wrong about the coming downturn/recession. $6+ diesel fuel prices alone are doing a nice job of squelching interest in boats. Interest rates are rising, which will make it harder to buy. They have to, because it's one of the few tools countries have to dampen inflation. It's all but certain that a year from now (maybe sooner), market conditions will be different. Let's see if some people's behavior will be as well.

 

[Seevee]

Thanks SEEVEE. As much as I really wanted to buy a used boat, the truth is I don't need one. Honestly, no one needs a boat that badly that they should be willing to put up with having to debase themselves and be a subservient sucker to the capricious, unprofessional, arrogant whims of (some) brokers and (again some) greedy sellers to get one. If I bought one under these conditions, I'd feel like a fool every time I looked at it. Everyone is different and some might just see it as what has to be done to buy something in this market. But it just sucked all the fun out of it for me.

It's hard to imagine all the (much smarter than I am) economists being wrong about the coming downturn/recession. $6+ diesel fuel prices alone are doing a nice job of squelching interest in boats. Interest rates are rising, which will make it harder to buy. They have to, because it's one of the few tools countries have to dampen inflation. It's all but certain that a year from now (maybe sooner), market conditions will be different. Let's see if some people's behavior will be as well.

Excellent points, Nick. Often hard to deal with crazy times like we're going thru, but we can learn from past crazy times.... ALWAYS followed by some sort of "leveling or softening" if not a recession. It's a matter of when and how much. Already starting to seeing some slow downs, but not real significant.


YES, the new boat was a great choice, enjoy and you don't ever have to second guess yourself. Best to you! Keep us posted on the build.

 

[Nick14]

Thanks again Seevee. The one guarantee with any markets is they are cyclical. The only question is how long and how much.

I'm definitely sensing the beginnings of a softening in the boat market. They're only my own observations, but I'm seeing more boats listed on yachtworld daily in the past 2-3 weeks than I've seen in the past year. I'm also seeing more boats with price reductions. Most interestingly, I'm getting more calls from brokers offering me newly listed boats, or telling me about boats available again because deals fell through. I think it's the beginning of FOMO, Fear Of Missing Out.

Of course, I made this happen. I'm the cause of the used boat market softening, because it started right after I put a deposit down on a new build (I also make it rain whenever I wash my car).

There was a good article in Forbes a couple of days ago prognosticating on the future of the economy:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/greats...ssion-is-rapidly-approaching/?sh=5bc6981337d4

As the Bob Dylan song goes, "the times they are a changin." As Art said, sit back and watch a 'really big sheeeww' coming up. As much as it will be nice for buyers for the market to at least make some movements towards balance, it will be painful for most people to some degree.

 

[FatBear]

I tried to buy a boat last year and my experiences were VERY much like Nick's, though I could add a few variations on the theme. And I got about as frustrated as he is. And so did my broker. I actually got a buyer-broker to help me and she because so disgusted with the treatment that I and a couple of other of her customers received that she left the business.

We even got to the point where I would call her as soon as I saw an interesting boat, she would produce an online offer which included a personal viewing in addition to the usual survey/sea trial. That theoretically gave me a chance to at least see the boat before I had to commit to the considerable cost of survey and sea trials. But then she would contact the listing broker only to find the boat already sold. In multiple cases it was sold before the listing ever went live on yachtworld. All of the great advice and strategy in the world isn't going to overcome that kind of thing.


She actually went and walked the docks and talked to people who had boats like I was looking for. She found one that the owners were interested in selling. But they insisted on going through the broker they had always used in the past and then that guy sold it to someone else so fast that it never even got listed on yachtworld at all.


Some people here like to throw around other peoples' money with suggestions like: just make an offer contingent on survey and sea trial and let the survey guide your buying decision. Well I've looked at a number of boats that I could easily reject without a survey. Like one that would have been exactly perfect except that every single part and surface was pretty much worn out and due for replacement. Probably another $300,000 worth of work on a boat with an already maxxed out asking price of $89,000. The survey to determine that would have been well over $1000. Better to make an instant-offer contingent on viewing, too, so you can reject the boat before spending that survey money.

Most of the problem is the extremely competitive market with a lot of first time buyers. But brokers are human beings and a certain percentage of them are shysters - probably about the same rate as it occurs everywhere in society. And all of them are under intense time pressure, so it's apparently hard to find the time to be fair, decent, or ethical. (And I think our overall society has lost track of those same things, so it's very easy to ignore them.)

As a result, I do not have a boat, other than my Hobie Oasis and Outback kayaks, and am not currently looking. Well, not hard, anyway. I guess I am here because I saw an ad that made me curious. But I probably will not pursue it. I just don't have time for the BS. And I'm retired! How does anyone with a job ever manage to buy a boat?

 

[FatBear]

I'm definitely sensing the beginnings of a softening in the boat market. They're only my own observations, but I'm seeing more boats listed on yachtworld daily in the past 2-3 weeks than I've seen in the past year. I'm also seeing more boats with price reductions. Most interestingly, I'm getting more calls from brokers offering me newly listed boats, or telling me about boats available again because deals fell through. I think it's the beginning of FOMO, Fear Of Missing Out.

Maybe it's time to start looking again. I think the interest rates have a lot to do with it. They affect home buying and boat buying is much more discretionary than home buying.

I keep hearing talk about how we're not in a recession. We can't be in a recession with such high employment rates. Etc. But recessions aren't caused by facts. They are caused by hand-wringers worrying and fretting and stewing like a bunch of hens when the fox is around, about whether or not there's a recession coming. So I think that probably means that there is one coming. And the boat owning hand-wringers are probably going to be putting a lot of boats up for sale soon, hoping to sell them at currently very high prices before the value plummets. I'm sufficiently annoyed about last year that I'm either going to wait for the recession to start or I'm going to make offers at recessionary prices and if people don't like it, they can just sit on their boats until it is over.

As the Bob Dylan song goes, "the times they are a changin."

The times are always changing. Change is the one constant in the universe. Entropy reigns supreme. (Maybe I'll name my next boat Entropy - if I ever get one.)

 

[backinblue]

Sounds like you basically are saying that you can't afford a boat in this market. If it's a seller's market and people are paying more than asking price, then either play that game or not, but why complain about it? That's what the market is, so either play the game by the current rules or not. It's that same with real estate. You may not be happy that you can't afford what you want to buy, but complaining about it solves nothing. It's not BS and you may not like it, but if the market will hold up the prices, then it is what it is.

 

[wkearney99]

Sounds like you basically are saying that you can't afford a boat in this market. If it's a seller's market and people are paying more than asking price, then either play that game or not, but why complain about it? That's what the market is, so either play the game by the current rules or not. It's that same with real estate. You may not be happy that you can't afford what you want to buy, but complaining about it solves nothing. It's not BS and you may not like it, but if the market will hold up the prices, then it is what it is.

I think that's more argumentative than is productive. You're not entirely wrong though, just maybe more rude than is helpful in a pleasant conversation.

The shysters have always been there, but when the economy is flush for a greater majority they tend to get overlooked. Until the budgets start tightening, as we're seeing lately. Perhaps partly due to decades-long suppressed wages coming to grips with gouging inflation. Thus you start to hear more complaints from those in the economic middle.

 

[Nick14]

I tried to buy a boat last year and my experiences were VERY much like Nick's, though I could add a few variations on the theme. And I got about as frustrated as he is. And so did my broker. I actually got a buyer-broker to help me and she because so disgusted with the treatment that I and a couple of other of her customers received that she left the business.

Some people here like to throw around other peoples' money with suggestions like: just make an offer contingent on survey and sea trial and let the survey guide your buying decision. Well I've looked at a number of boats that I could easily reject without a survey. Like one that would have been exactly perfect except that every single part and surface was pretty much worn out and due for replacement. Probably another $300,000 worth of work on a boat with an already maxxed out asking price of $89,000. The survey to determine that would have been well over $1000. Better to make an instant-offer contingent on viewing, too, so you can reject the boat before spending that survey money.

I just don't have time for the BS. And I'm retired! How does anyone with a job ever manage to buy a boat?

Sounds like you basically are saying that you can't afford a boat in this market. If it's a seller's market and people are paying more than asking price, then either play that game or not, but why complain about it? That's what the market is, so either play the game by the current rules or not. It's that same with real estate. You may not be happy that you can't afford what you want to buy, but complaining about it solves nothing. It's not BS and you may not like it, but if the market will hold up the prices, then it is what it is.

Of course the 'market', supply and demand, determines pricing. But it's not so much the price of used boats that is so frustrating (though wasting a lot of time seeing so many boats in poor condition being listed at more than they cost new 20 years ago - and some not that far off new prices - with sellers and brokers wanting 'let's find a sucker' prices). As both @FatBear and I said, it's the BS that's intolerable.

@FatBear, you're absolutely right, it's interesting how some people can be cavalier in throwing around other people's money.

Any halfway rational person understands the price of anything is determined by what people are willing to pay for it. What drove me to to buy a new boat was the rudeness, arrogance, sheer discourtesy, and lack of integrity or moral compass of too many of the people I tried to deal with. It wasn't the pricing, it was the BS, being expected to bend over, grab my ankles, having to buy a boat sight unseen, without asking questions along the way (because pompous people found that impertinent) and having to pay the highest bid with no upper limit.

Of course plenty of people are willing to do that, to satisfy the immediate gratification of getting a boat right now. Life is indeed short. My remaining time is limited, and they're out on the water today while I'm waiting until next spring. Those may indeed be the current 'rules' one has to play by. I was not. I respect myself too much to debase myself to go through that.

I decided to walk away from self-flagellation and played a different game. I ended up paying about twice as much for a new boat as what I initially set out thinking to spend on a used one. And very glad to do it, and not put up with being insulted and toyed with.

The 'market' dictates pricing. But it doesn't dictate human behavior. I spent my career dealing with Wall Street and the financial community. From both those experiences and the recent used boat market, you really see a person's true nature when money is on the line. How someone behaves when they have a chance to squeeze a few more bucks by throwing decency and integrity out the window tells you a lot about their character.

 

[FatBear]

I think that's more argumentative than is productive. You're not entirely wrong though, just maybe more rude than is helpful in a pleasant conversation.

The shysters have always been there, but when the economy is flush for a greater majority they tend to get overlooked. Until the budgets start tightening, as we're seeing lately. Perhaps partly due to decades-long suppressed wages coming to grips with gouging inflation. Thus you start to hear more complaints from those in the economic middle.

Yeah, it was rude, but some people are like that. It was also arrogant/ignorant because it assumed things without any evidence. All but one of my offers last year were full price offers. And all were well over the comparables in soldboats.com. And had he paid any attention at all to what I wrote in my first posting, he would have noted that I said a lot of the boats I tried to offer on were sold before they even hit yachtworld. There was no opportunity to try an outbid anyone or whatever other aggressive buying techniques he thought I should use. That's not me being a cheapskate.

My comments in the second posting about lowballing my offers if I start looking again are for the very reasons that seem to motivate his comment: if the market is going to play mean/harsh/aggressive, then maybe I should, too. If it is switching to a buyer's market, then under these rules the buyer gets to jerk the seller around instead of the reverse that we've seen during the past couple of years. It cuts both ways.

What would you do if you wanted a boat, but didn't actually need one (almost nobody does) and you thought it was likely that you could get a boat in 6 months for considerably less than today? You could wait 6 months or you could offer what you think it will be worth in 6 months. If the seller doesn't want to take that, fine. They can wait the 6 months. Maybe I'll be back or maybe I'll find someone who can see the writing on the wall and manages to negotiate something with me.

Negotiate? Do people still do that? Maybe we can re-learn. I actually am not inclined to "jerk anyone around". But I will definitely not be offering these inflated prices when I know they will plummet pretty soon.

The most important thing, though, isn't really the price. It's that I get the opportunity to at least look at a boat and negotiate something like has always happened in the more rational boat market of the past. This isn't my first boat purchase and it's never been like this before. The BS we experienced in the last year or two has been just a bunch of Covid disfunction. The question is will we get past it now?

 

[FatBear]

...

Well stated.

 

[Nick14]

What would you do if you wanted a boat, but didn't actually need one (almost nobody does) and you thought it was likely that you could get a boat in 6 months for considerably less than today? You could wait 6 months or you could offer what you think it will be worth in 6 months. If the seller doesn't want to take that, fine. They can wait the 6 months. Maybe I'll be back or maybe I'll find someone who can see the writing on the wall and manages to negotiate something with me.

Negotiate? Do people still do that? Maybe we can re-learn. I actually am not inclined to "jerk anyone around". But I will definitely not be offering these inflated prices when I know they will plummet pretty soon.

You're absolutely right. Anyone on this site by definition wants a boat. Maybe even very badly. But truthfully, no one needs a boat. Survival rarely depends on getting a boat (unless you're on a sinking ship and literally referring to a lifeboat).

I felt myself sliding down the slippery slope of sanity as time went on. I started out my search 2 1/2 years ago doing what I've done in other searches over the years. Including, asking questions (shocking! how impertinent of me! to think I had the right to ask questions about a boat priced in six figures! like something as brazen as how many hours were on the engine!).

Like you, many of the boats I called about were sold by the time I inquired (even within hours of being listed). I also made many full-price offers. As more and more of them were rejected for increasingly eye-popping above asking prices, I became more desperate. I bent my own rules, and common sense. It got to the point where it was just completely ridiculous, absolutely insane. My wife, who has been beyond supportive in this process, threw some proverbial cold water in my face asking me what the hell I was doing. I threw in the towel and ordered a new boat, which has been the complete opposite experience, a total pleasure and delight (most especially the people I am dealing with).

No one knows what the used boat market will do in the future. There is disagreement over whether or not the country is in a 'recession,' and even how to define 'recession.' Nonetheless, I think it's probably a safe bet that in 6 months, boat supply will be up, and demand and prices will be down. Fuel prices might be lower than they are today but will almost certainly still be much higher than they were a year ago, and the consensus on the stock market seems to be downward. Maybe only a little, maybe a lot, but probably a better buying situation than today.

Coming right off a hot seller's market, it can take time for reality to sink in for some sellers. Everyone wants the good times to continue, expects them to come back, or think that their boat is special and worth the let's find a sucker price. But that's balanced against FOMO, Fear Of Missing Out, which usually wins in the end.

If you are patient, I think time is on your side.

 

[tiltrider1]

I feel for Nick and FatBear. I would have a difficult time pulling the trigger in this market. I have spent most of the last 30 years shopping for a boat. I am very specific in needs and value. As such I went 16 years before I found a replacement for my Uniflite. I am still shopping but have no expectation of finding anything tempting in this market.

Yes, I have the advantage of already owning a boat and have found myself a two boat owner in the past. Still, my buyer broker friend won’t assist on anything under a million dollars. He can’t help in this market because brokers are not interested in co-brokering. My boat was just surveyed for insurance and the value was raised by 40%.

This is really a bad time to buy a boat. It is the complete opposite of what we experienced in 2010 when we were finding boats listed at half price. Unfortunately, I didn’t see that pricing issue correct itself until 2019 and now the pendulum has swung completely to the other side.

 

[wkearney99]

It is perhaps a uniquely American perspective to think sales transactions aren't going to involve some degree of haggling, especially when the market's hot. If not solely US American, certainly among Westerners that haven't traveled very widely beyond borders of Western countries, let alone doing actual business there (or even just buying in local markets). Rug merchant sales are almost a form of entertainment.

I'm not saying being jerked around is ok, but the skins of some customers seem mighty thin.

Me, I take the "Stress follows the direction of the money. My money means YOUR stress, not the other way around" and am prepared to beat people up accordingly when haggling. How much? Well, everyone's threshold is different.

But here's the thing, most of the brokers doing the selling aren't new to the game. It's the customers, showing up at random for a one-time (or once-a-decade) purchase for something they found on a website. Is it any wonder there's no 'rapport' involved, especially in a hot market? The brokers don't know you and the market is hot, is it at all reasonable to expect some kind of special treatment? Especially when you've not even had any contact with them prior? It's not like when the market cools all these "mistreated" customers are somehow going to be the only buyers. This isn't the corner store selling groceries or local bank, depending on long-term customers and good will.

Sure, we'd all like to think it shouldn't be such a crass process... but when the market's hot either get with it or get the hell out of the kitchen.

Which means most folks that aren't prepared to compete in a hot market are better served waiting until it cools.

 

[bowball]

There’s a lot of finger pointing going on against sellers. If the shoe was on the other foot, would you take less for your boat than others would pay?

And implicitly by this argument, every recent boat buyer is a sucker? They judged it’s value as to the enjoyment and time value they would receive.

Did they overpay? Compared to what? When they buy the next one, perhaps prices will be much lower as you suggest, but then that purchase will be lower too. Or they take a loss but got great usage.

There is no absolute value in boats; it’s how much you value the experience.

If there are shady seller’s techniques that’s a different matter.

 

[psneeld]

One thing I know...there are a lot of tire kickers in the boating market and a lot of sellers and brokers are overly cautious these days of people who want to "look at" boats.

Sure it hurts serious boaters/buyers.... unfortunately, like taking precautions against fraud all the time.... the state of boat buying is strong arming against tire kickers.

 

[Art]

Sans RE, because of deep legal circumstances in that market!

I buy and sell all sorts of items on a personal level with sellers and buyers. Don't use brokers. Not that I feel against brokers... but... IMO, they are a fairly unnecessary [and somewhat costly] cog in the wheel. Will say that for many buyer or seller people the broker can provide a level of security as well as reduction in the peoples need to cross t's and dot i's. I like crossing t's and dotting i's.

Signed "Sold - Where Is /As Is" Contract... that clearly defines the product and that has the buyer agree to fully understanding that type of sale... generally satisfies all legal conditions of a sale. That is as long as the seller was truthful about the item being sold and therefore can not be proven to have lied. Truth sets you free!

 

[Delta Riverat]

I think the stock market had the most to do with both the real estate and the boat markets.

I bought my boat start of the year when I was flush with capitol gains. Paid cash. Don't think I would be looking now down over a half mil.

Same with real estate. Lot's of cash offers with freshly minted market capitol gains.

Propensity to over spend is easy when you are flush with dough.