BruceK
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garbler, be good if you could distinguish between being rude to survey customers and to fellow Forum members. But you can`t.
Advice Needed Please
- Thread starter Not_Lost
- Start date
The friendliest place on the web for anyone who enjoys boating.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
Yo... Rick - Don't take this wrong - "You're obviously old enough to know better and still remaining too young to really give a sweet sht." I'm planning to maintain that slant myself - all the way to the end of my road... err, channel!
IMO we all should tell it like we mean it and simply don't lie nor equivocate too much.
In general I enjoy your posts. Seems clear you have some background to share/reveal on TF.
Cheers!
Art
IMO we all should tell it like we mean it and simply don't lie nor equivocate too much.
In general I enjoy your posts. Seems clear you have some background to share/reveal on TF.
Cheers!
Art
mvweebles
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Umm.....you collapsed the group of folks who disagreed with you as "clueless." You're not the only one with extensive marine experience, but you are one of the few who harp on it and expect it be accepted at face value - lets be fair: in the Internet age, no way to tell if experience is relevant or the Santos guy in New York (fraudulent Congressman). It comes across as condescending and undermines your messaging. Nobody disagrees that a wood boat can be a quality boat, but cheap 50+ year old wooden boats are a bad bet. I would think an experienced surveyor would offer some credible suggestions on how to mitigate risk of seeing a dog vs blindly defending wooden boats. Upthread (#28) I suggested the buyer ask for history of past surveys before heading several hours to see the boat. What suggestions did you have besides general construction observations from 50-years ago?
I'd point out that many of the very best contributors to TF have had zero paid experience as a "marine professional." They gain credibility though knowledge and experience, not self-proclaimed credentials. In short, they earned respect. I marvel at several of them because they obviously had super-successful professional careers that required 150% of their time yet they still became SMEs in marine topics. At least a few of whom have been part of the "clueless" crowd re: wood boats.
I know you especially don't want it from me, and I don't expect it, but for others, a bit of respect is in order.
Peter
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For those who are thinking about purchasing a wood boat:
Here's a little hands on, self-learned input regarding looking closely at build-material and fastening conditions of used wood boats. Mechanical and electric item conditions are two wholly different ball games.
Being a boater with some years of relatively intense background in owning, working upon [repairing and adding to] used wood boats in boat yards and building new wood boats in a manufacturer [late 50's, all the 60s and to mid 70's. I offer my suggested, extremely important items for "self-surveying" any wooden boat.
1. Get agreement from boat owner for you to accomplish limited-scope intrusive search and research into all portions of the boat. Owner says no... Say Good Bye!
2. Know what you're looking for by having personal past experience, well studied reading and/or a wooden boat knowledgeable surveyor [or friend] aboard for doing the necessary research along with you. IMO - For careful review of a wood boat's actual condition - nothing beats a careful, in-depth self-survey. Takes many hours - but worth every minute in the long run!
3. Minimum tools to have with you: - Sturdy very thin ice pick, - very lightweight ball peen hammer with thin cloth [handkerchief works well], hand held spot light, good quality moisture meter [pin-type or pinless-type], a multi meter and handheld hair dryer - know for what reasons and just how to use them. To explain that last sentence fully would take a couple pages.
Those three items collectively and correctly utilized will tell you nearly all you need to know about a wood boat's condition. Also, both an in water and dry dock review is needed to get the full picture of a wood boat's [virtually any boat's] current condition.
Let's face it... I anyone is seriously thinking to purchase any boat; the couple days time and couple thousand dollars required for a comprehensive, complete self-survey is more than worth the time and money... - To Know Exactly - what you're getting into!
Here's a little hands on, self-learned input regarding looking closely at build-material and fastening conditions of used wood boats. Mechanical and electric item conditions are two wholly different ball games.
Being a boater with some years of relatively intense background in owning, working upon [repairing and adding to] used wood boats in boat yards and building new wood boats in a manufacturer [late 50's, all the 60s and to mid 70's. I offer my suggested, extremely important items for "self-surveying" any wooden boat.
1. Get agreement from boat owner for you to accomplish limited-scope intrusive search and research into all portions of the boat. Owner says no... Say Good Bye!
2. Know what you're looking for by having personal past experience, well studied reading and/or a wooden boat knowledgeable surveyor [or friend] aboard for doing the necessary research along with you. IMO - For careful review of a wood boat's actual condition - nothing beats a careful, in-depth self-survey. Takes many hours - but worth every minute in the long run!
3. Minimum tools to have with you: - Sturdy very thin ice pick, - very lightweight ball peen hammer with thin cloth [handkerchief works well], hand held spot light, good quality moisture meter [pin-type or pinless-type], a multi meter and handheld hair dryer - know for what reasons and just how to use them. To explain that last sentence fully would take a couple pages.
Those three items collectively and correctly utilized will tell you nearly all you need to know about a wood boat's condition. Also, both an in water and dry dock review is needed to get the full picture of a wood boat's [virtually any boat's] current condition.
Let's face it... I anyone is seriously thinking to purchase any boat; the couple days time and couple thousand dollars required for a comprehensive, complete self-survey is more than worth the time and money... - To Know Exactly - what you're getting into!
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psneeld
Guru
I know it will never happen but I would love to see anyone's list of very best TF contributors.
I once was told here by a controversial contributor on TF that people believed/listened to him rather than me because he was a better writer and understood marketing. Kinda says a lot right there about internet threads. Even I had to admit it seemed true...fortunately a lot PMs have kept me posting.
My problem with some of these discussions is it is hard to separate the truly experienced from the person who has had one or a couple personal experiences. While those experiences apply, they really don't override the experience of those that do something day after day as a career or lifestyle.
I once was told here by a controversial contributor on TF that people believed/listened to him rather than me because he was a better writer and understood marketing. Kinda says a lot right there about internet threads. Even I had to admit it seemed true...fortunately a lot PMs have kept me posting.
My problem with some of these discussions is it is hard to separate the truly experienced from the person who has had one or a couple personal experiences. While those experiences apply, they really don't override the experience of those that do something day after day as a career or lifestyle.
Contributor's name begin with "M"?? LOL
mvweebles
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Marketing is indeed part of getting your message across. I'm reminded of the two brothers who open competing restaurants across the street from each other, but only one succeeds. The first brother advertises "Sushi!!!" Second brother advertises "Raw Dead Fish!!!" Not hard to figure out which one got popular.
For what it's worth Psneeld, pretty sure you'd be on almost all lists of Top 10 TF contributors, including mine.
Peter
I second the motion!
Okay Peter you just a swipe at me with a big brush so how about spinning or marketing your comments.
Could you tell me the source of “ clueless “ as it is a direct quote your attributing to me for “ collapsing the group “.
“ but you are one of the few who harp on it and expect it be accepted at face value “
Since I “ harp on it “ my experience that is, well it’s because when I offer something up I believe it’s proper to let the reader know where it came from. You’ll find I regularly credit sources in my posts. If that makes you uncomfortable I’m not sure why
“ in the Internet age, no way to tell if experience is relevant or the Santos guy in New York (fraudulent Congressman). It comes across as condescending and undermines your messaging. “
Whoa glad I didn’t say that cause it would be tough to explain or get away from. But you managed to link me up with the fraud politician Santos. And read my face and body language as condescending
“ I would think an experienced surveyor would offer some credible suggestions on how to mitigate risk of seeing a dog vs blindly defending wooden boats.”
Up above I was an unknown and possibly an internet fraud now are you saying I’m a “ experienced surveyor “ . How to mitigate risk ? Well how many posters already told the OP to get a good surveyor. So that’s how, and it was already “ harped on “ . If you think I’m “ blindly defending wooden boats “ then perhaps reading comprehension is the issue here.
“ What suggestions did you have besides general construction observations from 50-years ago? “
Given the fact that the vessel is really nothing but concept in words what else would you do ? Probably not a lot of members on this forum who actually worked on these old Alaskans so if couldn’t give him localized specifics by the number. He hadn’t even been on the boat so best I could do was give him some build history and characteristics that often correspond to structural problems. Yes my information was from “ 50-years ago ? “ but then isn’t the boat 50 years old ?
Regards
Could you tell me the source of “ clueless “ as it is a direct quote your attributing to me for “ collapsing the group “.
“ but you are one of the few who harp on it and expect it be accepted at face value “
Since I “ harp on it “ my experience that is, well it’s because when I offer something up I believe it’s proper to let the reader know where it came from. You’ll find I regularly credit sources in my posts. If that makes you uncomfortable I’m not sure why
“ in the Internet age, no way to tell if experience is relevant or the Santos guy in New York (fraudulent Congressman). It comes across as condescending and undermines your messaging. “
Whoa glad I didn’t say that cause it would be tough to explain or get away from. But you managed to link me up with the fraud politician Santos. And read my face and body language as condescending
“ I would think an experienced surveyor would offer some credible suggestions on how to mitigate risk of seeing a dog vs blindly defending wooden boats.”
Up above I was an unknown and possibly an internet fraud now are you saying I’m a “ experienced surveyor “ . How to mitigate risk ? Well how many posters already told the OP to get a good surveyor. So that’s how, and it was already “ harped on “ . If you think I’m “ blindly defending wooden boats “ then perhaps reading comprehension is the issue here.
“ What suggestions did you have besides general construction observations from 50-years ago? “
Given the fact that the vessel is really nothing but concept in words what else would you do ? Probably not a lot of members on this forum who actually worked on these old Alaskans so if couldn’t give him localized specifics by the number. He hadn’t even been on the boat so best I could do was give him some build history and characteristics that often correspond to structural problems. Yes my information was from “ 50-years ago ? “ but then isn’t the boat 50 years old ?
Regards
The following comment was made by a member who is well versed and has considerable experience. It’s a remark that I’ve heard for years in one form or the other that many take as gospel despite the fact that it’s pretty much false.
“ Wooden boats have significantly more potential for unpleasant surprises than a plastic boat. “
The fact is hidden structural hull and deck problems with fiberglass boats can be tricky to find and many times trickier to confirm than conventional wood construction. Same goes with onboard system components. Let me explain
Hull Wood: a conventional planked hull that is sick or damaged will almost always provide visual cues to somebody who can read them. Slack weeping plank seams indicates rotted or started caulking usuall the result of bad fasteners. Rotted planks usually remain wet after the rest of the bottom has dried. Uneven or knuckled plank edges point to broken frames. Rotted or brooms planks talk to the hammer. You get my drift I think but there is pretty much always visual and physical evidence.
Hull GRP: First off you need to ascertain how the hull is constructed, is it solid, sandwich cored and what kind of core, Balsa, Airex, Klegecell ?. Is the bottom cored or solid and topsides cored ? Trust me lots of surveyors can’t tell or know how to tell. Factory spec sheets aren’t always laying around. Is the hull and core wet. Are the glass hull skins delaminated from core. Is core decayed. Will a hammer test suffice or do I need a meter. Is the hull suffering from osmotic blistering if so to what depth and range. So as you see nothing is easily detected from a visual inspection and if problems do exist often the next step is destructive testing by hole saw. Some surveyors rely on IR Thermal Imaging equipment to scan hulls but often too much info becomes a problem. So it would appear fiberglass hulls are not as forthcoming with information as some may think.
Deck Wood: A laid and caulked deck will leak if seams are started and slack whether it’s a fir, teak or whatever. With a laid deck over a plywood subdeck it’s often fairly easy to pop or remove a few bungs or plugs, draw the screw if it will come out and with a undersized drill bit in hand or a small gimlet probe the fastener hole to depth, turn the tool and withdraw. If what you find is a dark earthy smelling soft gunk then your plywood is rotted. So continue around the deck to make a representative evaluation. If there is no plywood under the deck planks a trip below and to look for water stains, plastic tents etc will speak for itself.
Deck Fiberglass: Well like the hull it’s necessary to verify how the deck is constructed. In England Halmatic made solid glass decks but very few are made that way over here. So most are sandwich cored. The early 60’s thru 80’s production sailboats used end grain balsa core with abysmal results. Many powerboats did also but plywood with fiberglass sheathing was more common. Later with vacuum bagging cores changed to Divinycell or Klegecell and other closed cell structural foams and most wet decks stopped. The Taiwanese approach has been typically glassed plywood with screwed teak planking over and rabetted seams payed with polysulphide. Most will eventually leak allowing water migration into the plywood subdeck below. The same drill bit or gimlet inspection technique will work. There are so many different type of deck layups on fiberglass boats that you’ll need a plastic hammer, moisture meter or probes to hopefully figure out what you have. But none are obvious like a wood planked deck so some sleuthing is required
The strangest deck I ever encountered as a early Far East Yachts main deck laid with like 3mm Lauan plywood then 3/4” x 2 - 2 1/2” wide unknown wood species that was covered with a black mastic then overlayed with another sheet of 3mm plywood that was glassed and finally capped with a lovely laid teak deck. I actually pulled the forepeak chain pipe fitting to see the layers.
Superstructure Wood: Other than custom high end sail or power that used planked or plywood with rabetted corner posts most production boats were plywood painted or paper faced Haborite marine grade plywood painted. Painted plywood is like a bad poker player it just can’t hide problems like delamination or rot so it’s pretty straight forward finding problems. Same with mahogany the preferred wood for windshield frames, corner posts sills and coamings. Again you don’t need X-Ray vision to see funny paint surface features or very soft wood. Likely
areas to investigate are around windows, windshields, portlights, the cockpit main beam or area where you step up or down from saloon to cockpit.
Superstructure Fiberglass: With many oriental far East built trawlers and cruisers the plywood quality is suspect but then the practice over there was and is to fiberglass over it. Water migration behind the fiberglass into the plywood invariably causes rapid decay. It’s not visible to the naked eye but can be detected with a meter and a surveyors hammer. Destructive boring is sometimes necessary to confirm for sellers and brokers
Hull Interior Wood : A musty earthy smell often alerts a surveyor or buyer to fungal rot but not always. Most hull framing is partially concealed by ceiling or built-Ins and furniture. But this should not preclude a nosy buyer from forming an opinion. A run of broken frames is almost always found from the machinery space aft. As such it’s usually possible for a ferrety surveyor to use mirrors and lights or a endoscope to see what needs to be seen. As mentioned before a string of broken frames are always broken at the same place such as the bilge stringer and from the exterior of the hull this will show as a ‘ knuckle ‘ to the discerning eye. Floors, keel, portions of a stern post, deck beams shelves and clamps almost everything else is generally accessible to varying degrees. Even frames behind tanks where a long mirror from under and between frames will reveal. You don’t always need to be an expert to evaluate many of the damaged or deteriorated wood members. You do though have to be willing to get dirty, open hatches, and probe with a good light and a pick..
Hull Interior Fiberglass: Now this is an almost impossible mission since all hulls since the 80’s have what’s called a ‘pan’ or liner. These are dropped in before the deck goes on. Now the Taiwanese hulls are different as they have the joiner crews to come in a fit up ceiling panels, cabinets and furniture that pretty much covers the entire inner hull skin. With a full ‘ pan ‘ most
of the interior hull skin is impossible to view except below the sole, engine room, lazarette or chain locker. Stringer are often concealed making inspection a hard call as it often destructive. Some of the worst builders actually bury wiring and piping runs under the ‘ pan’. Same with critical engine exhaust runs that are effectively buried in furniture that is glass tabbed to the hull skin. Your in-house technical expert Steve D. can certainly fill in my blanks per the ABYC and the law.
So it appears that the fiberglass hull hides her secrets better than the old wooden predecessors. So well in fact that many can change hands over and over without discovery.
Rick
“ Wooden boats have significantly more potential for unpleasant surprises than a plastic boat. “
The fact is hidden structural hull and deck problems with fiberglass boats can be tricky to find and many times trickier to confirm than conventional wood construction. Same goes with onboard system components. Let me explain
Hull Wood: a conventional planked hull that is sick or damaged will almost always provide visual cues to somebody who can read them. Slack weeping plank seams indicates rotted or started caulking usuall the result of bad fasteners. Rotted planks usually remain wet after the rest of the bottom has dried. Uneven or knuckled plank edges point to broken frames. Rotted or brooms planks talk to the hammer. You get my drift I think but there is pretty much always visual and physical evidence.
Hull GRP: First off you need to ascertain how the hull is constructed, is it solid, sandwich cored and what kind of core, Balsa, Airex, Klegecell ?. Is the bottom cored or solid and topsides cored ? Trust me lots of surveyors can’t tell or know how to tell. Factory spec sheets aren’t always laying around. Is the hull and core wet. Are the glass hull skins delaminated from core. Is core decayed. Will a hammer test suffice or do I need a meter. Is the hull suffering from osmotic blistering if so to what depth and range. So as you see nothing is easily detected from a visual inspection and if problems do exist often the next step is destructive testing by hole saw. Some surveyors rely on IR Thermal Imaging equipment to scan hulls but often too much info becomes a problem. So it would appear fiberglass hulls are not as forthcoming with information as some may think.
Deck Wood: A laid and caulked deck will leak if seams are started and slack whether it’s a fir, teak or whatever. With a laid deck over a plywood subdeck it’s often fairly easy to pop or remove a few bungs or plugs, draw the screw if it will come out and with a undersized drill bit in hand or a small gimlet probe the fastener hole to depth, turn the tool and withdraw. If what you find is a dark earthy smelling soft gunk then your plywood is rotted. So continue around the deck to make a representative evaluation. If there is no plywood under the deck planks a trip below and to look for water stains, plastic tents etc will speak for itself.
Deck Fiberglass: Well like the hull it’s necessary to verify how the deck is constructed. In England Halmatic made solid glass decks but very few are made that way over here. So most are sandwich cored. The early 60’s thru 80’s production sailboats used end grain balsa core with abysmal results. Many powerboats did also but plywood with fiberglass sheathing was more common. Later with vacuum bagging cores changed to Divinycell or Klegecell and other closed cell structural foams and most wet decks stopped. The Taiwanese approach has been typically glassed plywood with screwed teak planking over and rabetted seams payed with polysulphide. Most will eventually leak allowing water migration into the plywood subdeck below. The same drill bit or gimlet inspection technique will work. There are so many different type of deck layups on fiberglass boats that you’ll need a plastic hammer, moisture meter or probes to hopefully figure out what you have. But none are obvious like a wood planked deck so some sleuthing is required
The strangest deck I ever encountered as a early Far East Yachts main deck laid with like 3mm Lauan plywood then 3/4” x 2 - 2 1/2” wide unknown wood species that was covered with a black mastic then overlayed with another sheet of 3mm plywood that was glassed and finally capped with a lovely laid teak deck. I actually pulled the forepeak chain pipe fitting to see the layers.
Superstructure Wood: Other than custom high end sail or power that used planked or plywood with rabetted corner posts most production boats were plywood painted or paper faced Haborite marine grade plywood painted. Painted plywood is like a bad poker player it just can’t hide problems like delamination or rot so it’s pretty straight forward finding problems. Same with mahogany the preferred wood for windshield frames, corner posts sills and coamings. Again you don’t need X-Ray vision to see funny paint surface features or very soft wood. Likely
areas to investigate are around windows, windshields, portlights, the cockpit main beam or area where you step up or down from saloon to cockpit.
Superstructure Fiberglass: With many oriental far East built trawlers and cruisers the plywood quality is suspect but then the practice over there was and is to fiberglass over it. Water migration behind the fiberglass into the plywood invariably causes rapid decay. It’s not visible to the naked eye but can be detected with a meter and a surveyors hammer. Destructive boring is sometimes necessary to confirm for sellers and brokers
Hull Interior Wood : A musty earthy smell often alerts a surveyor or buyer to fungal rot but not always. Most hull framing is partially concealed by ceiling or built-Ins and furniture. But this should not preclude a nosy buyer from forming an opinion. A run of broken frames is almost always found from the machinery space aft. As such it’s usually possible for a ferrety surveyor to use mirrors and lights or a endoscope to see what needs to be seen. As mentioned before a string of broken frames are always broken at the same place such as the bilge stringer and from the exterior of the hull this will show as a ‘ knuckle ‘ to the discerning eye. Floors, keel, portions of a stern post, deck beams shelves and clamps almost everything else is generally accessible to varying degrees. Even frames behind tanks where a long mirror from under and between frames will reveal. You don’t always need to be an expert to evaluate many of the damaged or deteriorated wood members. You do though have to be willing to get dirty, open hatches, and probe with a good light and a pick..
Hull Interior Fiberglass: Now this is an almost impossible mission since all hulls since the 80’s have what’s called a ‘pan’ or liner. These are dropped in before the deck goes on. Now the Taiwanese hulls are different as they have the joiner crews to come in a fit up ceiling panels, cabinets and furniture that pretty much covers the entire inner hull skin. With a full ‘ pan ‘ most
of the interior hull skin is impossible to view except below the sole, engine room, lazarette or chain locker. Stringer are often concealed making inspection a hard call as it often destructive. Some of the worst builders actually bury wiring and piping runs under the ‘ pan’. Same with critical engine exhaust runs that are effectively buried in furniture that is glass tabbed to the hull skin. Your in-house technical expert Steve D. can certainly fill in my blanks per the ABYC and the law.
So it appears that the fiberglass hull hides her secrets better than the old wooden predecessors. So well in fact that many can change hands over and over without discovery.
Rick
mvweebles
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The 'other thread' where you wax poetically on how brilliant wood boats are, about how no one speaketh the truth about them. About how you and only you are the knower of truth.
https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s3/oh-my-god-not-wooden-boat-67425.html
Specifically, Post #4 - an unsually short post for you.
I appreciate your view on this but I think I have a grasp of this crew. What I can’t understand are the constantly derogatory statements by people who honestly don’t have a clue. If I could load a buss full of these crusaders I’d turn them around in a day of boatyard boat shop visitations.
What is particularly ironic is the pictures I posted of horrendously rotted ribs were from (.....wait for it....) a boatyard. Obviously not one of the mythical boatyards you would load us clueless dolts into a bus to visit. Taken together, these two threads have at least a dozen wooden boat owners who essentially say some form of "Extreme caution warranted" to "Been there, done that - ain't doing it again...ever." Including my photographic evidence. On the other side is you pontificating about how we collectively don't have a clue.
Rick, I am stunned you're doubling down on this. But it sure is fun to watch.
Peter
psneeld
Guru
I have always interpreted "don't have a clue" meaning people don't know what they don't know but aren't necessarily dumb or stupid.
I am ignorant/don't have a clue on a lot of engine stuff (but I know what I know), a lot of automotive stuff and even say medical stuff.... but I really have never earned the moniker of dumb or clueless.
Clueless on the other hand I do take to be harsh..... meaning that it describes a person that can't find their butt with either hand, let alone both.
When threads and posters jump back and forth between the way a boat starts out and finishes up its life, many times descriptions become clouded and people are usually arguing 2 different things because they are envisioning 2 different stages.
Wooden boats are a classic example.
Another would be the guy who bought his Grand Banks 40 years ago and thought it was a great boat. 40 years later after several owners repairs (ya know ....the ones many here describe as nightmares compared to their jobs even though their next owner says the same about them) TFers start describing their boat or one they might buy and everyone says run for the hills. Yet they might turn around and recommend the same brand as long as you are buying that brand new or slightly used.
So beside some really selective thin skins I see here now and then, many times language, perspective and mannerisms (plus not recognizing sarcasm and jumping on someone) seems to create an unnecessary stir.
The best way to downsize a lot of back and forth is to be very specific in your points and rebuttals.
It's only the internet so get over it... if it's egregious enough...it will get flagged.
I am ignorant/don't have a clue on a lot of engine stuff (but I know what I know), a lot of automotive stuff and even say medical stuff.... but I really have never earned the moniker of dumb or clueless.
Clueless on the other hand I do take to be harsh..... meaning that it describes a person that can't find their butt with either hand, let alone both.
When threads and posters jump back and forth between the way a boat starts out and finishes up its life, many times descriptions become clouded and people are usually arguing 2 different things because they are envisioning 2 different stages.
Wooden boats are a classic example.
Another would be the guy who bought his Grand Banks 40 years ago and thought it was a great boat. 40 years later after several owners repairs (ya know ....the ones many here describe as nightmares compared to their jobs even though their next owner says the same about them) TFers start describing their boat or one they might buy and everyone says run for the hills. Yet they might turn around and recommend the same brand as long as you are buying that brand new or slightly used.
So beside some really selective thin skins I see here now and then, many times language, perspective and mannerisms (plus not recognizing sarcasm and jumping on someone) seems to create an unnecessary stir.
The best way to downsize a lot of back and forth is to be very specific in your points and rebuttals.
It's only the internet so get over it... if it's egregious enough...it will get flagged.
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This has turned into a free for all!
Face it guys and gals... wood is wood, glass is glass, steel is steel... etc, etc. One boat may be in better condition than the next.
Some on this thread know a little some seem to know a lot. Sharing ideas and experiences is what TF is made for. Not trying to show who wears the biggest boots.
This isn't grade school for grade school squabbles. We're mature adults. At least that was my previous impression.
Face it guys and gals... wood is wood, glass is glass, steel is steel... etc, etc. One boat may be in better condition than the next.
Some on this thread know a little some seem to know a lot. Sharing ideas and experiences is what TF is made for. Not trying to show who wears the biggest boots.
This isn't grade school for grade school squabbles. We're mature adults. At least that was my previous impression.
SteveK
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SteveK
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That actually describes the meanings well.If those following this thread think I’m looking for a fight or “ doubling down “ then let me say empathically that this is not the case. I’ve spent time constructing posts for this forum and most are supported by real world facts or my old files. In so doing I’ve attempted to impart some honest information on boat construction and repairs, engines and related system components, boatyard and repair crew procedures, solutions to known vessel class problems, etc. etc. and some history where I could. To those that feel I may be a internet fraud then so be it, but if you’re looking for U-tube or website verification sorry but I’ve never advertised other than business cards. Disagreements are a honest bi-product of discourse and that’s what these forums are, or should be, about. But there are a few who ignore the civil rules of discourse and instead elect to blatantly mis-quote, slander and generally ignore the contents of a post and fabricate statements attributed to a poster that don’t exist. Please carefully read my posts and see for yourself if in fact I’m the fraud and the one posting BS.
Not trying to be incendiary here but everybody should have the right to defend themself.
Rick
Not trying to be incendiary here but everybody should have the right to defend themself.
Rick
Hear-Hear, There-There and Here-Here... Case Dismissed!
Now, let's get back to informative, good, honest-experience semi-anecdotes about boats and their lives!
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Roy Ferguson
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In my opinion I would never purchase wooden vessel with out a survey.
Welcome Ray! Professional and personal survey is required for any boat of cost... IMO
- Art
Agreed!
IMO... to really know how to, what to and where to inspect an older wood boat:
Ya gotta have considerable hands-on experience with old wood boats... you know better than most... liven with em, maintaining em, repairing em - i.e. making love to em and getting love back from em!
Therefore, most persons who were born past 1965 +/- [exceptions do exist] probably did not have too much hands-on interactions as an adult with wood boats.
As old wood boats slowly die off. Old wood boat owners/workers do too!
BruceK
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For Aussies tempted by a "woody" needing initial inspection or survey ,there are wooden boats still being built,and rebuilt,in Australia. Tasmania, the island state at the southern side of Australia seems to have several.There is Simon Sadubin in Sydney and I expect others, The owner of Presidents Boatshed Sydney, originally the site for building AG Williams cruisers,I think still works. A boat builder is selling a recently built 30ft wooden boat on Lake Macquarie NSW. Afloat magazine is a useful research source.
rpackard
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I have owned four wooden boats and never had any problems. The key is good maintenance.
At such a low price you might want to consider getting liability insurance only. That might be easier to get than hull coverage.
However, if you lack sufficient skills and the time to properly maintain such a large vessel than don't buy it. Boat yard costs are too high for anything other than owner maintenance on a wooden hull. And many yards won't permit owner painting.
Why do you want such a large vessel. Are you seeking a house on the water or a boat that can take you places. these are different things.
I often advise that a boat's annual costs should be no more than 10% of market value. A $35k, 50ft boat will have annual costs far in excess of this rule.
At such a low price you might want to consider getting liability insurance only. That might be easier to get than hull coverage.
However, if you lack sufficient skills and the time to properly maintain such a large vessel than don't buy it. Boat yard costs are too high for anything other than owner maintenance on a wooden hull. And many yards won't permit owner painting.
Why do you want such a large vessel. Are you seeking a house on the water or a boat that can take you places. these are different things.
I often advise that a boat's annual costs should be no more than 10% of market value. A $35k, 50ft boat will have annual costs far in excess of this rule.
Southern Boater
Senior Member
The Tasmanian Wooden Boat Centre in Franklin has groups of wooden boat enthusiasts coming through the school for training and has become a real community for the like minded.
Wilson’s at nearby Cygnet, and the many ex-employees out in the community certainly keep the dream alive, all culminating in the bi-annual boat festival in Hobart, which is something that needs to be seen, incredible examples of great skill and dedication.
Of course, none of this is for the average “off the shelf” boat buyer
Greg QS
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In a word RUN!
My dad started in boating when I was a kid. I was in grade school It was an owens 30 double planked mahogany boat. I understood then , and vowed never to own a wood boat.
In that price range there are tons of glass boats like that. Glass Boats are hard enough to keep up with. Keep looking
My dad started in boating when I was a kid. I was in grade school It was an owens 30 double planked mahogany boat. I understood then , and vowed never to own a wood boat.
In that price range there are tons of glass boats like that. Glass Boats are hard enough to keep up with. Keep looking
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