SteveK
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Peter,
Care to list what we should gauge by?
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Advice on insurance
- Thread starter Eaton Crowe
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The friendliest place on the web for anyone who enjoys boating.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
Care to list what we should gauge by?
Compare the key policy terms. Deductible, coverage limits, coverage areas, etc etc.
Credit rating of insurer.
And maybe some intangible sense of who is fair to deal with for getting claims reimbursed. (The latter is where an expert in the industry is useful)
Eaton Crowe
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The agents I am dealing with are: Bobby Tambascio at Gowrie, Maritime Program Group (agent) who offers the Chubb policy,
Tom Jackson at United marine Insurance (on-line quote but could actually talk to a person)
BoatUS/Geico - no individual to talk to, just on-line. The on-line programs make you look at a bunch of pictures and tell what you see to prove you aren't a robot but how do you know you aren't going to send your money to a robot?
BoatUS/Geico îs the cheapest but liability coverage is limited 500K.
Tom Jackson at United marine Insurance (on-line quote but could actually talk to a person)
BoatUS/Geico - no individual to talk to, just on-line. The on-line programs make you look at a bunch of pictures and tell what you see to prove you aren't a robot but how do you know you aren't going to send your money to a robot?
BoatUS/Geico îs the cheapest but liability coverage is limited 500K.
Eaton Crowe
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Haven't decided yet but looking to be well covered for first season with a new boat and shop for better. Need coverage quickly to close and get underway. Sent you a personal message to learn about your Sabre.
Every page and line of the policy, the coverage and the exclusions.
Key elements include their payments on total losses and their payment calculations on partial losses, any depreciation. Then their environmental and their towing and salvage coverage. Cruising areas and limitations. Requirements in named storms. Consequential damages.
Then after looking at the complete policy, it's their history of payment. How easy will it be to get your claim paid? How will they treat the other party if an accident with another boat?
Find a good broker and insist on going over the entire policy with them to be sure you understand exactly what you have and what your responsibilities are in the event of a claim.
Boat insurance isn't like auto insurance where there are standards in each state and the insurer has to conform. Even homeowners' insurance has a great deal of state regulation, although less consistency than auto. Boat insurance has far more variation from company to company and policy to policy even within one insurer.
Some key elements are is it all risk, how does it cover wear and tear, does it have agreed fixed value, is it new for old, what about excess free claims, any emergency accommodation of travel coverage, what about breakdown assistance, what about engine breakdown, what is the level of third party liability coverage, does it have a rider for personal accident coverage, and even clauses most don't have but should you have a policy for war, strike and political acts. Who can operate the boat under the policy. What about coverage at the boatyard and damage by the yard.
The insurer writes the contract and every line in it is carefully chosen on their behalf. You need to know what you're getting.
Eaton Crowe
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This is a very helpful, thoughtful contribution to the discussion. Thanks. Looks like I am already getting a lot of good advice from the Forum.
Thanks
Thanks
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Yessir.
Coverage first and foremost. I can get you a policy that is dirt cheap, but caveat emptor if/when a claim occurs…
Two vessels identical in every way except for the owner can have radically different annual costs, based on the user’s information (experience, loss history, and more).
SteveK
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BB, Not the answer I was looking for, too obvious.
deductible can be lowered with higher premium, I am claims free boater so premium is my main concern. coverage limits? I have up to 2mil for each incident. coverage areas are what I specified asking for quote.
My biggest concern was discharge of fuel or oil in a marina. This has become much more concern protecting the environment.
I solved that concern by installing bilge switches that sense fuel and oil and will only discharge water. Should the bilge fill with fuel my high water alarm will alert me remotely.
Destinees
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After 7 years with GIECO through an independant Agent, GEICO is no longer writing or considering previous policies written through outside agents. We asked our AARP vehicle insurance company Hartford about marine insurance and they extended this through a Hartfort solutions partner. But their premium would probably not be any lower than the lowest quote that you already have acquired.
Sorry about that!
I too carefully looked at environmental coverage and was impressed with how generous my carrier AIG was. To be candid, I didn't shop policies as AIG is my primary insurer, and they have a great reputation. I paid 0.7% of hull value for comprehensive coverage.
I also made sure the liability coverage limits dovetailed into my umbrella liability policy.
My concern was less damage to the boat (2% deductible) but rather those other costs that could be far higher like environmental and personal liability, mainly hurting someone or getting sued for that.
I also wanted a carrier that I could trust, and hence having a longer term relationship with them.
Marsh is a very large multi line insurance broker, and they handle all my insurance policies, so that was another layer of protection for me for being treated fairly.
I also came to the conclusion that almost as important in your boating record, is a great credit record for deciding whether they will extend coverage to you, which originally surprised me.
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SteveK
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Credit score. I guess they can look it up behind the scene. They may have asked if there was a loan, but I do not remember. Mostly my boating resume.
I know the agent I spoke to made comments which suggested I would have no trouble getting approved at a good rate.
I think it's a proxy for being responsible and reliable. I'm sure they look at your driver's record too. I wish you the best as its unnerving since it is such a black box, with all of us just guessing.
What's frustrating is that you can get denied or dropped for reasons unrelated to yourself. They decide they have too much exposure to a certain area, or you have an older boat or a wood hull.
For example, AIG won't renew coverage on my house as they are dropping all policies in that state due to the state's insisting they cover unprofitable geographic areas for wildfire fire coverage, yet can't raise rates there to cover the risk. (I'm not in their risk area either.) I have until June to find a new carrier.
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I’ll +1 that as well. I just finished buying my first boat and Peter was the first person I talked to, first by email then at a boat show. He hooked me up with a broker (Jon Heisel at Irwin) and lender (Michael Jenkins at Trident) and they made the experience a cake walk.
I chose to go with Markel, even though they are requiring a training captain for +/-18 hrs. As a new boater I think it’s a good idea anyways. Peter hooked me up with a captain as well.
AlanT
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I just want to chip in here as a common theme in these insurance threads is insurers that arbitrarily change their requirements and send non-renewal notices as happened to Bowball or impose untenable renewal terms.
I was an independent insurance broker for ~40yrs providing solutions for mainly Oil Cos, Offshore Drilling Contractors and Shipowners. What we small boat owners are experiencing is common throughout the insurance industry in all specialist lines of business. There are a variety of reasons for this which I can dive into if needed but the bottom line is that the largest buyers of insurance including in my personal experience: Shell, Esso/Exxon, Pemex, Petronas, Crowley etc. also face this exact same issue despite their massive buying power.
My job was to research and develop connections with a wide range of qualified insurers so that when the inevitable 'non-renewal' notice arrived, or the renewal terms offered were untenable, my clients had options.
That is what a broker does.
By and large the broker is paid by the insurer, not the insured, so their representation of us boat owners does not add to our cost. (Not true of my former clients which were mainly fee-based clients).
When you hire a broker you are getting your own representative in dealing with a number of insurers. You should ask for and expect to receive several competing quotes and an evaluation of those quotes considering insurer quality, claims responsiveness, coverage comparison etc. For more difficult risks (old wood boats, inexperienced owners etc.) there may be few options and it is even more important that you have on your side someone qualified to seek them out.
That is why I strongly recommend making a connection with a broker. Find a good Marine/Yacht insurance broker and THAT will become your long-term relationship as the insurers come and go over the years.
Bottom line: My recommendation is that you do your due diligence in the selection of a broker, then allow the broker to do his due diligence in the negotiation and selection of an insurer or a panel of insurers from which to choose.
My broker has been my broker since 2006. In 16 years we have moved insurers 5 times. Never for price, always for coverage and my required navigation limits.
~A
You describe the situation well and reiterate what I keep screaming and that is to shop brokers, not insurance and then let the broker work for you. The broker can stay with you for decades but the insurance policy is highly unlikely to do so.
I don't like changing insurers but learned long ago that sometimes you don't have a choice or a reasonable one. Then I want someone who knows me and who I know and trust to navigate the perilous insurance sea for me.
Eaton Crowe
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Outcome of insurance shopping
I apologize for not responding earlier to tell what I bought. Been too busy finalizing the sale and bringing the boat north. Here is a short summary.
I went with Chubb Masterpiece Policy, brokered through Gowrie, with a $2300 annual premium. It was the most expensive and has more coverage than I thought I wanted. I considered BoatUS/GEICO ($1700) or United Marine ($1300). Yes, big differences but I didn't like the on-line shopping experience with the them. The customer has to prove he/she is an authentic human being by identifying which pictures in a grid have traffic lights or a tractor but there is no assurance that you will be able to talk to a human being if you have questions or a claim. No one to talk to at GEICO and no survey required. After getting a quote from United, it was hard to talk to someone. I had numerous phone calls and emails with just ONE agent at Gowrie. Chubb policy includes $145K for emergency towing and service. Given that I was about to hop on a 20 year old boat and take it 900 miles north, that was a big plus.
Hope this sheds some light for others. I am just learning how to communicate on the forum.
Chris Mansfield
AKA Eaton Crowe
MV Haven, Sabre 36 Fast Trawler (won't be going very fast)
I apologize for not responding earlier to tell what I bought. Been too busy finalizing the sale and bringing the boat north. Here is a short summary.
I went with Chubb Masterpiece Policy, brokered through Gowrie, with a $2300 annual premium. It was the most expensive and has more coverage than I thought I wanted. I considered BoatUS/GEICO ($1700) or United Marine ($1300). Yes, big differences but I didn't like the on-line shopping experience with the them. The customer has to prove he/she is an authentic human being by identifying which pictures in a grid have traffic lights or a tractor but there is no assurance that you will be able to talk to a human being if you have questions or a claim. No one to talk to at GEICO and no survey required. After getting a quote from United, it was hard to talk to someone. I had numerous phone calls and emails with just ONE agent at Gowrie. Chubb policy includes $145K for emergency towing and service. Given that I was about to hop on a 20 year old boat and take it 900 miles north, that was a big plus.
Hope this sheds some light for others. I am just learning how to communicate on the forum.
Chris Mansfield
AKA Eaton Crowe
MV Haven, Sabre 36 Fast Trawler (won't be going very fast)
Montenido
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My experience with GEICO has been less than stellar. They took over my US Boats policy when I was in Mexico. My agent knew I was down there and the US Boats policy covered me down there. When I returned to the USA a year and a half ago due to Covid, I called my agent seeking a reduction in my premium since I was now stateside. Not only did I not receive a reduced rate, I was told that I had NOT been covered for the two years that GEICO was cashing my checks. WTF? Is that even legal? I was never notified of their change in coverage and they happily cashed my checks for the whole time.
That left a very bad taste in my mouth. I am currently back in Mexico and carry liability insurance (Chubb) only. Maybe I'll check with Paul about getting coverage again for Mexican waters.
STAY AWAY FROM GEICO!
Cheers, Bill
That left a very bad taste in my mouth. I am currently back in Mexico and carry liability insurance (Chubb) only. Maybe I'll check with Paul about getting coverage again for Mexican waters.
STAY AWAY FROM GEICO!
Cheers, Bill
ksanders
Moderator Emeritus
My opinion regarding insurance is to use your favorite independent Insurance Broker.
You think about insurance once a year when you renew or buy a new policy. Your broker does this for a living.
You think about insurance once a year when you renew or buy a new policy. Your broker does this for a living.
Alaskan Sea-Duction
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Good point
magna 6882
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Does anyone the diference between ACE American and chub. both names are on my paperwork,
BruceK
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Doesn`t seem to meet the insurers mutual obligation of "utmost good faith". If as they claim, they were affording you no cover, they ought return your $. But as that involves you implicitly accepting they were not obliged cover you, before you ask for your $ back,check you have no possible claim,or claim against you,that may be outstanding,or might arise.
Capecodder
Senior Member
Boat Insurance…. I used what I thought was a experienced trustworthy local agent with a good reputation….? Paid my premiums my policy was pretty steady for five or six years and then had a few major increases. then it’s renewal time no contact from the agent no invoice…. Reading comments on here and other sources about huge increases on vessels in Florida. So I telephoned my agent and see what’s up. She says hold on let me grab your file, she reports back that she looked in my file and there was check for last years Premium, they had canceled my policy, as the ins company had stopped writing in Florida?
As she shopped my policy told me the biggest issue I HAD was I HAD a gap in my Insurance coverage, never took ownership that Her agency never notified me… last time I spoke to her she said it was my boat I should’ve made sure I had coverage… So why do we hire agents….?
As she shopped my policy told me the biggest issue I HAD was I HAD a gap in my Insurance coverage, never took ownership that Her agency never notified me… last time I spoke to her she said it was my boat I should’ve made sure I had coverage… So why do we hire agents….?
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ACE acquired the Chubb brand several years ago, so it’s a branding thing,
ksanders
Moderator Emeritus
Here are some other important insurance points.
First buying direct from the insurance company does not save you money Vs using a broker. The broker gets paid by the insurance company, but the "buy direct" companies are not cheaper, they just make more profits, and or do not tailor a policy to fit your needs.
Another point is to actually read your policy. If you have specific questions ask your broker for clarification. If you do not like an exclusion, then go back to your broker and ask to have it removed or modified to fit your needs.
Last is to remember that your insurance policy is not designed to protect you against your unwillingness to properly maintain or protect your boat. It is designed to protect you against unforeseeable losses, not things that you could prevent if you took the time and spent the money to mitigate the risk before it became a big deal.
First buying direct from the insurance company does not save you money Vs using a broker. The broker gets paid by the insurance company, but the "buy direct" companies are not cheaper, they just make more profits, and or do not tailor a policy to fit your needs.
Another point is to actually read your policy. If you have specific questions ask your broker for clarification. If you do not like an exclusion, then go back to your broker and ask to have it removed or modified to fit your needs.
Last is to remember that your insurance policy is not designed to protect you against your unwillingness to properly maintain or protect your boat. It is designed to protect you against unforeseeable losses, not things that you could prevent if you took the time and spent the money to mitigate the risk before it became a big deal.
SteveK
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Was the cheque in the file your payment not cash or a refund cheque not given to you? And why was it for 5 years. When you paid your premiums I assume you were invoiced first and you were not just sending a cheque based on the quoted amount.
The 5 years is the puzzle because it suggests the agent collected your payments and was ready to return your money if you ever asked for it or made a claim.
ACE acquired Chubb and is changing the name to Chubb.
AlanT
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+1.
And while on this topic another important point to note is the difference between an agent and a broker. An Insurance Agent is not the same as an Insurance Broker. An Agent works for and is an agent of the insurer (or sometimes the agent of several insurers). When you deal with an agent you are dealing directly with an insurance company and you have no representation.
The agent's primary responsibility is to his insurer(s) not to the insured boatowner. This is true of any insurer; State Farm, Chubb, Progressive etc. The agent does do not work for you and they can only present quotes from the companies that employ them. On the other hand an Insurance Broker is the agent of the boat owner. He has a responsibility to the owner, not the insurance company. You should clearly set out your requirements to the broker and hold him/her accountable. Depending on your cruising area, your resume & boat specs you should expect several quotes from insurers that best meet your requirements. The presentation of quotes should (must in my opinion) include a coverage comparison.
~A
MikeM
Senior Member
I was previously insured by GEICO through a broker. Now looking for a new carrier. I got several quotes from the broker, with one from Markel being the most likely. Some companies won’t quote us because of our liveaboard status…CHUBB being one.
Since State Farm doesn’t work though independent brokers, I decided to call them directly. I can get essentially the same coverage with them with a much lower deductible and better navigational limits.
I saw a couple of comments from folks insured by State Farm in this thread. Is there anyone else who can comment on their experience with State Farm?
Thanks, Mike
Tuscan Sun
Kadey-Krogen 48 NS
Since State Farm doesn’t work though independent brokers, I decided to call them directly. I can get essentially the same coverage with them with a much lower deductible and better navigational limits.
I saw a couple of comments from folks insured by State Farm in this thread. Is there anyone else who can comment on their experience with State Farm?
Thanks, Mike
Tuscan Sun
Kadey-Krogen 48 NS
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