The "Trawler" part of "Swift Trawler?"

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3 basic hull forms...yet many boats are designed with in between characteristics to meet design compromises.
 
OldDan1943 said:
Rufus said:
Simi 60 said:
Sure there is
Its all about the hull form

I can live with that definition.
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So what's the difference between a planing and SD hull? Are Hatts, Uniflites, and Viking motoryachts planing or SD? Last I looked, the dead rise at the transom between those, and say a GB is dang close.

The Outer Reef marketing positioning ("SD is the best of both worlds") proclaims the oft-repeated "you have reserve speed to outrun a storm." I know people who have used speed to get through seriously high current areas of the PNW, and people who use it to time an opening of a bridge. But I can honestly say I've never heard first hand experience of out running a storm. I've heard plenty who cite the wx capability as justification for owning a SD, but never a decent example of it in practice. I wonder if under passage conditions, the vessel would have sufficient fuel to crank-up.

I agree that trawlers are more of a lifestyle description. Used to mean offshore or coastal passagemaking cruising. That's been replaced by a floating home for early /active retirees. Pretty broad vessel to meet that need.

Peter
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In my mind, an SD hull will plane given enough power, but not as nicely as a planing hull. And typically the bow won't be as buoyant or produce as much lift, partly to reduce violent pitching when running slow. A planing hull will tend to have more of a hump and then really climb up on top.

I'd say a GB is SD, but an old Hatteras, Viking, Uniflite, my boat, etc. are planing. The keels are smaller than the GB, the bows are more full, they typically have chines forward for more lift. Both those slower planing hulls and the GB have no chines aft and instead rely on huge trim tabs for stern lift. And they're both fairly low deadrise. But neither of those is what determines planing vs SD in my mind.
 
Often it is not outrunning a storm...it's picking your way though the least intensity or steering away from the tornado producing cells that there is an advantage to be had.
 
And then we can confuse everyone with a "tug", SD hull form. IE, The American Tug.
I dont think anyone has ever claimed the AT will plane, it just pushes more water as it goes faster.

I sort of figure, the reserve power/speed can be used when entering a 'cut' with a swift current or perhaps trying to get to a slip before dark.
Trying to out run a storm....? You better be real close to protected water.
IMO, Some storms are best ridden out in open water where you can maneuver.
 
psneeld said:
Often it is not outrunning a storm...it's picking your way though the least intensity or steering away from the tornado producing cells that there is an advantage to be had.
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I guess that's about right. I brought an N46 from SF to Blaine WA, about a 5 day run. Halfway through, wx shows a storm coming down from Alaska in a couple days. So I bump up speed 3/4 kts and buy an extra 5-6 hours early arrival. I could have bailed at Gray's Harbor, but all worked out well. Outer bands of the storm showed up shortly after I made the turn into the Straits of Juan de Fuca and had a decent sleigh ride into Port Angeles.

7 kts may not sound fast, but ability to run 170 nm days nonstop works out to be pretty fast. A SD boat would have needed fuel along the way and likely would have missed the wx window.

Really depends on how you're using the boat. I think speed of an SD boat is overstated for coastal cruising. Nice for a long weekend where you have to be back to work on Monday. But for serious cruising? A capable displacement hull is a fast boat even at 7 kts.

The whole "outrun a storm when needed" just makes me cringe. Feels line a table top exercise that has little basis in seamanship skills.

Peter
 
On the East Coast...the difference of a SD boat at 18 knots and a FD at 6-7 knots is huge. While I chose a slow boat while moving my house 2400 miles a year...it's not as important now with a few life changes.


A faster SD boat means running offshore or not, means entering port in daylight or not, means beating weather or avoiding it or not, means only needing shorther wearthe windows for destinations or not...and a comfy cruising boat can be just that without being a full time, no dirt owning liveaboard....


I am thinking of switching from a REALLY SLOW SD boat (6-7 knots) to more Lobster Yacht (15-20 knots) for all those features hat I desire while trading away sheer bulk because living aboard full time is starting to wane. Not sure I want to go all the way to planing as that's another level of compromises.
 
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psneeld said:
Not on the East Coast...the difference of a SD boat at 18 knots and a FD at 6-7 knots is huge.


Means running offshore or not, means entering port in daylight or not, means beating weather or avoiding it or not...


I am thinking of switching from a REALLY SLOW SD boat (6-7 knots) to more Lobster Yacht (15-20 knots) for all those features hat I desire while trading away sheer bulk because living aboard full time is starting to wane. Not sure I want to go all the way to planing as that's another level of compromises.
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Under great conditions for day trips, totally agree. But if you're trying to make some distance, you're constrained by fuel which will reduce your average speed to single digits. Tortoise and the hare thing.

I still don't get the difference between planing motoryacht and SD. It's been a long time since PMM had a cover boat that wasn't on plane. Or close to it. "Trawler" is nothing more than a legacy style of deck house. I get that the Tiara style express cruisers have different hulls. But don't see much of a difference in motoryachts and SD. A 1980 Uniflite ACMY 42 is as solid a hull as a 1980 GB42. Yea, I'm sure there are some sort of stakes on the Uniflite , but I doubt they do much in practice. Much more similar than different.

Peter
 
mvweebles said:
I get that the Tiara style express cruisers have different hulls. But don't see much of a difference in motoryachts and SD. A 1980 Uniflite ACMY 42 is as solid a hull as a 1980 GB42. Yea, I'm sure there are some sort of stakes on the Uniflite , but I doubt they do much in practice. Much more similar than different.
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Yes, the slower (high teens design cruise) planing hulls aren't drastically different from an SD hull. They basically trade a bit more pitching at low speeds and slightly worse tracking at low speed (slightly smaller rudders and a little less keel) for more bow lift and therefore easier and a bit more efficient planing. And maybe a bit better handling on plane.

Basically, the slow planning hulls are meant to run up on plane for hours on end, while the SD hulls are meant to spend a lot of time at low speeds and go faster sometimes.

The fast planing hulls are a different story and lose far more low speed handling in search of lower drag and better high speed handling. These tend to be deeper V for a better ride at high speeds in chop and to be able to ditch the keel, but not always. And the forefoot tends to be shallower which can lead to worse behavior at low speeds and at anchor.
 
Sorry but after years of sailboating and delivery captain..... I get it in spades.

Not that differences of opinion don't matter, just that differences of opinion see things differently.

If you don't see the difference in a SD say a Lobster boat Hull that can carry a ton on the after deck and planing hull like a Sea Ray that bogs down with 8 pax sitting in after seating...then I can't possibly change your mind.

Sure a full displacement trawler is one type a boat, the speed of a sailbiat with lots more room and a difference in comfort mentality.

But then I disagree with the average description of trawler here anyhow.....as the old expression goes about pornography.... like trawlers...I know one when I see one.

Also as I posted...people that see 3 different hull descriptions versus a continuum of design features I feel is out of the loop.
 
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I think it depends on what "outrunning a storm" means to you.



Our boat will cruise pretty comfortably at 15 knots, when needed. This July we used that speed to "outrun" Hurricane Isasis (or however it was spelled). We were in the Bahamas about 160 miles from our home slip when the storm popped up. We ran fast and made it home in two pretty easy days. We could have made it home in a slow boat as well, but that would have meant running all night.


But if your definition of outrunning a storm means hauling bootie away from a nasty thunder cell on the horizon bearing down on you, then no, your not going to do that.
 
psneeld said:
Sorry but after years of sailboating and delivery captain..... I get it in spades.

Not that differences of opinion don't matter, just that differences of opinion see things differently.

If you don't see the difference in a SD say a Lobster boat Hull that can carry a ton on the after deck and planing hull like a Sea Ray that bogs down with 8 pax sitting in after seating...then I can't possibly change your mind.

Sure a full displacement trawler is one type a boat, the speed of a sailbiat with lots more room and a difference in comfort mentality.

But then I disagree with the average description of trawler here anyhow.....as the old expression goes about pornography.... like trawlers...I know one when I see one.

Also as I posted...people that see 3 different hull descriptions versus a continuum of design features I feel is out of the loop.
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That catches another big difference between the slower and faster planing hulls. The faster ones don't carry weight well. The slower ones are often heavier boats and tend to carry weight better, although not as well as a lobster boat type SD.

On my own boat for example, it planes just as easily and runs the same speed (within a tenth or 2 of a knot) at cruise rpm whether the fuel tanks are below half and there are 2 of us on board or if the tanks are full with 6 on board. But it's heavier than a Sea Ray type, and being slower it has bigger props and lower shaft speeds. Those all make it less sensitive to extra weight. That said, weight forward does slow it down (unlike weight aft).
 
Thus my point that hulls are not 3 distinct shapes, designs.....it is a continuum of shapes that slowly fit one range to another...


Despite a few posters that beat us into thinking one formula suits all designs.
 
psneeld said:
Sorry but after years of sailboating and delivery captain..... I get it in spades.

Not that differences of opinion don't matter, just that differences of opinion see things differently.

If you don't see the difference in a SD say a Lobster boat Hull that can carry a ton on the after deck and planing hull like a Sea Ray that bogs down with 8 pax sitting in after seating...then I can't possibly change your mind.

Sure a full displacement trawler is one type a boat, the speed of a sailbiat with lots more room and a difference in comfort mentality.

But then I disagree with the average description of trawler here anyhow.....as the old expression goes about pornography.... like trawlers...I know one when I see one.

Also as I posted...people that see 3 different hull descriptions versus a continuum of design features I feel is out of the loop.
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I was mostly specific with my language - I didn't/don't see a big difference between classic motoryacht style hulls and SD hulls. Yea, GBs have s roughly plumb bow, but there are many that do not. I'm just hard pressed to find the differences. What Outer Reef and so many others call the best of both worlds. Nothing against SD hulls, I just think the big difference is above the waterline in deck house styling.
 
Whatever you are saying...it's not clear to me...


There are advertised SD hulls that are almost planing and some the are almost FD... it only takes a little tweeking to change those characteristics.


There are no definitive lines...even if some designer or association labels a formula or two to separate the basic designs...just a blur wherever the designer made them. Kinda like saying who is fat and who isn't



If you are saying that a trawler is based on looks above and not below the waterline...for that I can agree...to a point....



A fast Trawler...not happening in my book and for the most part...they don't look the part either...same way tugs are called tugs and not trawlers.


All just my opinion...but wherever I have traveled Maine to Florida to San Diego to Alaska... old timers seem to nod in agreement when we talk trawlers...not like many of the comments I have read here. Sure one can believe what they want...it usually shows up in dock talk with the old timers I am used to hanging with.
 
Psneeld - do kiss and tell. In your learned opinion, what boat brands/models qualify as a trawler?
 
Starting to name boats models would just open up the pandoras' box for argument and it is just dust in the wind anyhow.


A "learned opinion"?????...just waterside chatting with some very respectable folks.....
 
psneeld said:
Starting to name boats models would just open up the pandoras' box for argument and it is just dust in the wind anyhow.

A "learned opinion"?????...just waterside chatting with some very respectable folks.....
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I do agree with you but, we do have some heated discussions. Most discussions conclude out of boredom with no hard and fast answer.
I have submitted my answer. I was looking for something that competes with my answer. I am sure there are many other candidates.
 
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psneeld said:
Starting to name boats models would just open up the pandoras' box for argument and it is just dust in the wind anyhow.


A "learned opinion"?????...just waterside chatting with some very respectable folks.....
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You present yourself as much more esteemed than just waterside chat. Would expect more than throwing stones - opinions in the negative, but no examples.
 
OldDan1943 said:
1. Nordhavn 46
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For me, I want a boat that has range of 1500 nms, can carry stores for at least a couple months, and can be reliably operated by a reasonably knowledgeable operator without undue reliance on outside support. It should be reasonably comfortable for long passages. Size matters - over 55-60 feet there are a ton of options. Under 45 feet takes some interesting design and equipment choices. These all support a lifestyle vs are characteristics of a boat.

Willard, Nordhavn, DD, and KK mostly meet the criteria, though there are others.
 
Seriously you are calling me out because I have a strong opinion of what a trawler is despite all the conflicting definitions out there?

I will stand by my assessment that some people don't accept that a boat is anything but just one of the hull types despite the actual shape and performance differences.

But what I call a trawler and decide not to debate with strangers well...I will give a taste. A tug...having the word tug in the name should help, or something like a trunk cabin Marine Trader.....its not hard for many boats but as I did post there are some with descriptions on the border just like hull designs.
 
Our boat was originally marketed as a "42' Motor Yacht". But it has two Ford Lehman 135's na, a long deep keel that extends 12" below the props, and cruises at 8-9mph, with 11mph as top speed. SD hull. I call it a trawler.
 
psneeld said:
Seriously you are calling me out because I have a strong opinion of what a trawler is despite all the conflicting definitions out there?

I will stand by my assessment that some people don't accept that a boat is anything but just one of the hull types despite the actual shape and performance differences.

But what I call a trawler and decide not to debate with strangers well...I will give a taste. A tug...having the word tug in the name should help, or something like a trunk cabin Marine Trader.....its not hard for many boats but as I did post there are some with descriptions on the border just like hull designs.
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I'm calling you out because this thread had vague opinions - talk about all your experience and how you know a Trawler when you see one, and how the 'old timers' agree with you. But when it comes down to solid info, you demur about how you don't want to talk to strangers. Not sure how you rack-up 21k posts by not talking to strangers.

Psneeld - you often give good insights (I recently gave you hi-praise on one post). I was expecting more. not sure why bother with a thread contribution if you only have tomatoes to throw.

Peter
 
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mvweebles said:
I'm calling you out because this thread had vague opinions - talk about all your experience and how you know a Trawler when you see one, and how the 'old timers' agree with you. But when it comes down to solid info, you demur about how you don't want to talk to strangers. Not sure how you rack-up 21k posts by not talking to strangers.

Psneeld - you often give good insights (I recently gave you hi-praise on one post). I was expecting more. not sure why bother with a thread contribution if you only have tomatoes to throw.

Peter
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If you want facts and figures, I will be glad to give them on topics that have them...like hull performance vs design.

But what denotes a trawler is a bit more matter of opinion...and that is almost as bad as the whole COVID section. So throwing tomatoes .....kinda like picking on what I will and won't discuss or how many posts I have.

But.... I will give in to a handful that meet what I have come to think of trawlers at a quick glance...

Some Grand Banks
Some Albins
Some Marine Traders
Most KKs
Most Willards
Nordhavns
Many of the other brands that are Marine Trader and Albin look alikes...sorry the laudry list of names escapes me for now.

There are more....
 
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Sorry Mark...she is a beauty and there are more to go...

Exactly why I didn't want to get in the middle of a great debate.....always someone left out or with hard feelings.
 
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