Wolverine heater

[dhays]

A bit of thread confusion. This really isn't about making sure the oil will flow well (although that is a plus). I use 15W40 anyway per Cummins.

 

[twistedtree]

I guess I'm struggling with the value of engine heaters. I have (or have had) boats, tractors, dozers, excavators, generators, and trucks, all with diesels. Other than the boats, all spend the winter outside in temps way, way colder than the PNW. I've started all of them in temps well below zero (F, not C), and never had a problem with any of them.

 

[Ken E.]

​

I guess I'm struggling with the value of engine heaters. I have (or have had) boats, tractors, dozers, excavators, generators, and trucks, all with diesels. Other than the boats, all spend the winter outside in temps way, way colder than the PNW. I've started all of them in temps well below zero (F, not C), and never had a problem with any of them.

Engine heat in the PNW certainly isn't a necessity like it is with an 8D Cat Dozer in Fargo North Dakota, but it's still nice to have. Detroits love heat when it's cold. I had 8v71s that would fire on the first rotation with heat versus having to grind on the starters until they'd finally catch. I use them with my current Cummins just to get rid of moisture and condensation. Everything is dry downstairs throughout the winter. I like immersion heaters rather than pads, but that's just a personal preference.

 

[twistedtree]

​

Engine heat in the PNW certainly isn't a necessity like it is with an 8D Cat Dozer in Fargo North Dakota, but it's still nice to have. Detroits love heat when it's cold. I had 8v71s that would fire on the first rotation with heat versus having to grind on the starters until they'd finally catch. I use them with my current Cummins just to get rid of moisture and condensation. Everything is dry downstairs throughout the winter. I like immersion heaters rather than pads, but that's just a personal preference.

My Cat D5 Dozer started right up in sub-zero Vermont, along with everything else. I've never seen starting be a problem, even in the coldest weather.

 

[dhays]

I didn't decide to use a pan heater because of difficulties starting in cold temps. I swear I've posted that a few times already.

 

[Nomad Willy]

A bit of thread confusion. This really isn't about making sure the oil will flow well (although that is a plus). I use 15W40 anyway per Cummins.

But Dave Cummins dos'nt know whether you live in Florida or Anchorage Ak. Where we are in the PNW the relatively warm water under the boat hull will keep the engine compartment warm enough almost all the time. All the time while cruising running the engine every day.
As I've said I use single weight oil but if you feel you need some MV in your oil you may notice the list of recomended oils may include an oil w less viscosity improver (little rubber balls I've read) and have an oil more suited to this climate.
But you're right by following the manufacturer's recomendations. But you could be even more correct by choosing the best oil for YOU. If such alternatives are offered/listed. What temperature range is listed for 30 weight oil for your engine ... or is it listed?
At times I have mixed 30 and 40 weight same brand ect. Not mixed MV oil w straight weight but if all else is the same (brand and type like Delo400) should be very compatible. You may be able to mix you're perfect oil. Probably not your style as you seem to like da book.

Seems to me there was a car brand that voided warranties if you used 10-40 oil. The idea being that there was excessive VI in the oil. Does anybody recall that?

 

[dhays]

I understand your point about the temperatures we operate in. Our boats sit on a massive heat sink that stays at a pretty constant 50 degrees. Here is the chart from the Cummins manual. In the text the never mention a single weight oil but talk a lot about the additives in the high quality MV oil they recommend. They prefer 15W40 but say that lower viscosity oils can be used if operating in very cold conditions. They really don't like single weight oils.

 

[BruceK]

At times I have mixed 30 and 40 weight same brand etc

Eric, Why am I surprised, I should expect the man who modifies and redesigns anchors blends his own multigrade oil. How did it go?

 

[Nomad Willy]

Dave,
Yea I see they don't even list the strait oil. Well I'll go w MV if I can be convinced it's better. The problem w my thinking straight is better is just that it lacks the viscosity improvers that is not a lubricant and is (or at least been rejected in the past) somewhere in the industry.
Also synthetic oil will be rated as a MV oil even w/o any VI in the oil as synthetic oil has MV properties w/o the improvers. It just dos'nt thin much when it gets hot.

Bruce,
OK ya got me. So I'm predictable. Tried to work on my XYZ anchor today but my saber saw blades wer'nt up to the task.

 

[LarryM]

I excerpted this from Cummins Service Bulletin 3810340-06, 11-MAY-2007 at Seaboard Marine.

Cummins Inc. Recommended SAE Oil Viscosity Grades
Cummins Inc. primary recommendation is for the use of 15W40 multigrade for normal operation at ambient temperatures above -15°C [5°F]. The use of multigrade oil reduces deposit formation, improves engine cranking in low temperature conditions, and increases engine durability by maintaining lubrication during high temperature operating conditions. Since multigrade oils have been shown to provide approximately 30 percent lower oil consumption, compared with monograde oils, it is important to use multigrade oils to be certain your engine will meet applicable emissions requirements. While the preferred viscosity grade is 15W-40, lower viscosity multigrades can be used in colder climates.

Oils meeting API CI-4 and CJ-4 and a 10W30 viscosity grade, must meet a minimum High Temperature / High Shear viscosity of 3.5 cSt., and ring wear / liner wear requirements of Cummins Inc. and Mack tests. Thus, they can by be used over a wider temperature range than 10W30 oils meeting older API performance classifications. As these oils will have directionally thinner oil films than 15W40 oils, top quality Fleetguard® filters must be used above 20°C [70°F]. Some oil suppliers might claim better fuel economy for these oils. Cummins Inc. can neither approve nor disapprove any product not manufactured by Cummins Inc. These claims are between the customer and the oil supplier. Obtain the oil supplier's commitment that the oil will give satisfactory performance in Cummins® engines, or do not use the oil.

WARNING
An SAE 10W30 designation on a product is a viscosity designation only. This designation alone does not imply that the product meets Cummins Inc. requirements. Only 10W30 oils with diesel performance credentials listed in table 1 can be used in Cummins® Engines if the reduced ambient temperature indicated in Figure 1 is observed. Only 10W30 oils meeting CES 20078 (API CI-4) and CES 20081 (API CJ-4) can be used in the ambient temperature range similar to 15W40 oils.

Synthetic Oils
Use of “synthetic engine oils” (those made with API group 3 or group 4 base stocks) is permitted subject to the same performance and viscosity limitations of petroleum (mineral) based engine oils. The same oil change intervals must be applied to synthetic oils that are applied to petroleum (mineral) based engine oils.

Monograde Oils
Use of monograde oils can affect engine oil control. Shortened drain intervals might be required with monograde oils, as determined by close monitoring of the oil condition with scheduled oil sampling.

All in all, this is a very interesting service bulletin. I would recommend that anyone with Cummins power download and read it. Actually, I think it would be good reading for anyone interested in diesel lubrication, regardless of manufacturer.

 

[dhays]

It is essentially the same verbage that is is used in the Cummins manual for my 2009 build QSB 5.9L engine.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Re the Cummins bulletin ....

"Use of monograde oils can affect engine oil control."
The word "can" makes that statement almost meaningless.....

Shortened drain intervals "might" be required. Again an asteroid might fall on us.

The warning about API designations is good advice. IMO

"Since multigrade oils have been shown to provide approximately 30 percent lower oil consumption, compared with monograde oils" ....
Consumed by the engine during operation or by more frequent oil changes? Questionable and I wonder how that would come about? Perhaps during very cold startups?

"improves engine cranking in low temperature conditions".
Of course but is better engine cranking needed? No. Not in our boats.

"While the preferred viscosity grade is 15W-40, lower viscosity multigrades can be used in colder climates"

This statement at least implies if not states that higher viscosity oil is better except when real cold. When is it real cold in our boats? Only when they are not in use on the hard.

But if the viscosity improvers have so little downside that their use is nothing more than being unrealistic or even silly then I should ditch my notions about monograde oils and use the MV options. I know there are undesireable side effects from using viscosity improvers but don't know to what extent. Is there an objective non-biased source that has such information?

FYI I did use 15W40 during my engines break-in.

 

[diver dave]

What's all the fuss about?

Low viscosity oil is not needed on a boat for startup. Consider that oil is a fluid and basically not compressible. And that oil pumps are positive displacement pumps so if an oil pump turns 100 rpm it pumps x amount of oil wether it's 30 weight or 15 weight. And thicker oil is better at keeping metal parts appart and the residual oil will be thicker if you run 30 weight.

What keeps engine parts from touching is oil pressure, not oil viscosity. Consider that cold start with thick oil. Yes, it's a constant flow oil pump, matters little what the viscosity is. However, just downstream is the oil relief valve, which bypasses all that thick oil pumped that can't flow into the bearing journals.

Straight weight oil would be the better oil if the oil temperature was hot at startup. All this multi-V benefit exists for the first 10/15 minutes of warmup.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Diver,
If you substituted water for oil under double the normal oll pressure your bearings would fail almost instantly IMO. If you just had enough pressure to fill the bearing gap but had fairly thick oil the bearings would probably last awhile. All the pressure does IMO is to insure the replacement of the lost oil.

So I disagree w you. But it's just an opinion. I do'nt really know.

However I was an oiler on gold dredges in Alaska and put grease into many bearings. The grease gun pressure lasted only a few moments but the bearing did'nt require more grease for about an hour. I know grease is'nt oil but it's similar enough to make this analogy applicable to some degree.
Also there are bearings (plain) that are lubricated by oil cups whereas lube oil drips into the bearing slowly. No pressure at all.

I just disagree w you Diver. And a search on yahoo just brings up adds.

 

[diver dave]

Not a problem Willy; It's a minefield! I'm really thinking of shell bearings. I too have used sticky grease, in my case on ballscrew mechanisms on some automation. Quite a different topic too.

 

[Benthic2]

OP: did you consider a dipstick heater ? May not be quite as effective, but the installation would be considerably easier

https://www.walmart.com/ip/24-Oil-Dipstick-Heater/39087981

very interesting thread.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Benthic2,
Oh yes and will probably consume much less power.

Welcome to our fourm.

 

[dhays]

OP: did you consider a dipstick heater ? May not be quite as effective, but the installation would be considerably easier

https://www.walmart.com/ip/24-Oil-Dipstick-Heater/39087981

very interesting thread.

Never even thought about it. I'm not sure that it would work as well as the heat isn't spread out as well. To get the same wattage, with a lot less surface area I would be concerned about hot spots.

You are right, the install would have been much easier!

 

[Mako]

Use of “synthetic engine oils” (those made with API group 3 or group 4 base stocks) is permitted... The same oil change intervals must be applied to synthetic oils that are applied to petroleum (mineral) based engine oils.

I've always read this in operations manuals for diesels. The objective of using expensive synthetics is to lengthen oil change intervals.

Is it just a cover your butt statement?

 

[Art]

GoldenRod(TM) is what I use to keep bilge engine compartment warm, dry and mold free. Listed below, for understanding, is a compilation of different distributors' input regarding "GoldenRod" dehumidifier/heater. Can be seen in West Marine website. https://www.westmarine.com/buy/goldenrod--goldenrod-dehumidifiers--P012_360_002_501

GoldenRod® Dehumidifier Rod

• Circulates dry air throughout an enclosure on a 24-hour basis
• Won't reach the flash point of paper or plastic
• Available with a removable plug

Find relief from humid days and nights with the GoldenRod Dehumidifier Rod. It circulates dry air throughout an enclosure on a 24-hour basis. With maximum power of 38 watts, it generates the necessary heat needed to dehumidify without reaching the flash point of paper or plastic, so you stay safe. Available with a removable plug in case you need to route wires through a wall, partition or cabinet. Comes with a 6-ft. cord. Made in USA.
Finish: Gold Anodized.

You can never overdry with GoldenRods™. To work effectively, these units should be mounted horizontally at the bottom of the enclosure.

Length and Warmth Coverage in Cubic Feet and Watts
12" L / 100 ft / 12 w
18" L / 200 ft / 18 w
24" L / 300 ft / 25 w
36" L / 500 ft / 38 w


12" Price: $37.46
18" Price: $38.96
24" Price: $41.96
36" Price: $46.46

 

[Nomad Willy]

Art,
Good call. I have several "goldenrods". Put two small ones beside my head and two long ones in the engine compartment. The wattage is extremely low but I use them only as freeze protection.

Dave,
The dip stick heaters I'm quite sure won't provide nearly as much heat as your pan heater. But can be left on most (or even all) of the time. No need to install timers (and be dependant on them) or go to the boat often.

 

[Nomad Willy]

I've always read this in operations manuals for diesels. The objective of using expensive synthetics is to lengthen oil change intervals.

Is it just a cover your butt statement?

mako,
I'm grappling w this now re my VW Jetta that requires synthetic oil and has a 10,000 mi change schedule. Had another Jetta w same schedule and changed at 5,000 miles. I read at least once the reason for the longer intervals but can't remember. My present Jetta is a 5cyl and takes over 6 quarts of oil. So the $ savings from the long intervals is attractive.

The reasons for the changes in the first place (I think) is to remove the carbon in the oil and the oil molecules that have been shortened from use. Longer molecules give better viscosity they say. Viscosity falls w use. So perhaps the synthetic molecules can't be beat up and shortened as quickly as dino molecules. But the carbon (an abrasive) is in .. and comes from the fuel so I would think carbon would accumulate just as fast w synthetic oil as w dino.

So I'd like to be more clear on this too.

 

[Mako]

Nomad-
... and then to make it more confusing, we start thinking about adding Gulf filters with paper towel rolls inside!

Anyway, back to my original question, I did speak with the Netherlands technical support for Weichai about this. The subject was a medium speed diesel with a capacity of about 26 gallons of lube oil. He said that he was well-aware that synthetics would lengthen oil change intervals, but that the company had no data/conclusions/advise to offer regarding this.

Once again, I think it's just CYA.

 

[Nomad Willy]

mako,
I've run into this before.
Manufacturers not recomending products or proceedures or other things just because they don't want to be bothered w it. Testing and evaluation takes time and money.

But there is a well known reason for synthetic oil to last longer than dino. I'm hoping someone w the knowledge will pop up and post.

Some of the lower viscosity standards may be questionable as they provide lower EPA fuel consumption numbers. And that sells product.

Oh the TP filters have been on the market for a very long time and are IMO quite to very good. As a matter of fact the bypass filters were all that they had in the 30's and 40's. Full flow spin on filters came about in the 60's I think.
However the amount of carbon that by pass filters filter is not known by me. Maybe lots maybe not. By pass will actually keep your oil visually clean in a gas engine but I don't know if it could do that on a diesel boat engine. But by pass filtration along w full flow filtration is very good.

 

[dhays]

Art,
Good call. I have several "goldenrods". Put two small ones beside my head and two long ones in the engine compartment. The wattage is extremely low but I use them only as freeze protection.

Dave,
The dip stick heaters I'm quite sure won't provide nearly as much heat as your pan heater. But can be left on most (or even all) of the time. No need to install timers (and be dependant on them) or go to the boat often.

Art, I have a goldenrod that we used a lot on the saiboat and it is great. However, all it does is provide a little heat. That simply is an attempt to raise the temperature which allows the air to hold more water. Not a bad thing at all and that is what I am trying to do with the pan heater on the engine. I think the goldenrod is great for use in closed areas but for general use I much prefer one of these. They provide a small amount of heat but also a low speed fan which provides active circulation, something the Goldenrod doesn't do.

The pan heater is something that I will leave on at all times at the dock. My engine room AC circuit is not connected to the inverter so the switch just stays on. I did the same with the very ancient version of this that would always sit in the ER. It was 1000 watts but didn't keep the engine as warm as the 250 watt pan heater.

 

[Art]

Art, I have a goldenrod that we used a lot on the saiboat and it is great. However, all it does is provide a little heat. That simply is an attempt to raise the temperature which allows the air to hold more water. Not a bad thing at all and that is what I am trying to do with the pan heater on the engine. I think the goldenrod is great for use in closed areas but for general use I much prefer one of these. They provide a small amount of heat but also a low speed fan which provides active circulation, something the Goldenrod doesn't do.

The pan heater is something that I will leave on at all times at the dock. My engine room AC circuit is not connected to the inverter so the switch just stays on. I did the same with the very ancient version of this that would always sit in the ER. It was 1000 watts but didn't keep the engine as warm as the 250 watt pan heater.

In our boat's my engine compartment:

With vents provided, representing bilge blower actuated as well as ambient air pressure/exterior breeze actuated airflows, I've found by having the goldenrod heater in good location that the slightly warmed, slightly moving air inside the engine compartment keeps things condensation free.

I'm sure your pan heater well fulfills keeping the engine area warm.