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Old 03-25-2017, 05:41 AM   #121
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If you thought redundancy was truly important, shouldn't you own a catamaran?

Ted
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Old 03-25-2017, 08:43 AM   #122
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Knowing this crowd, I'm betting there are many boats here that can say the same. Gotta love redundancy...
Spot on Al, especially for those of us that venture out of reach of Sea Tow, cell phone coverage, mechanics availability, West Marine and egads Face Book!
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Old 03-25-2017, 11:09 AM   #123
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If you thought redundancy was truly important, shouldn't you own a catamaran?

Ted
Have you ever seen a cat underway with one hull filled with water? Me neither.

Cats are not hull redundancy...they are hull efficiency.

My thick, solid Californian hull is stout enough for me.
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Old 03-25-2017, 12:06 PM   #124
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Cats might be redundant but not in a good way. I really want to like them but the negatives just seem to overcome the positives. That and every one I've sailed on wound up turtled.
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Old 03-25-2017, 06:19 PM   #125
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Cats might be redundant but not in a good way. I really want to like them but the negatives just seem to overcome the positives. That and every one I've sailed on wound up turtled.
I hope you cave dive better than you sail.

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Old 03-25-2017, 06:23 PM   #126
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If you thought redundancy was truly important, shouldn't you own a catamaran?

Ted
And in that case, a chainsaw. Or maybe 2 .
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Old 03-26-2017, 04:44 AM   #127
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I hope you cave dive better than you sail.



Ted

Kinda funny the last cat I was on at the Miami show was a gunboat G4. She pitchpoled off of st Bart's during race week with the owner and builder on board. I think cats and cave diving are similar in that both involve pushing to find the edge. Both can be done recreationally with reasonable safety but for some that's not enough. In cave diving there are old divers and bold divers but no old bold divers. I just say no to both now but every once in a while I get tempted.
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Old 03-26-2017, 05:47 AM   #128
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Kinda funny the last cat I was on at the Miami show was a gunboat G4. She pitchpoled off of st Bart's during race week with the owner and builder on board. I think cats and cave diving are similar in that both involve pushing to find the edge. Both can be done recreationally with reasonable safety but for some that's not enough. In cave diving there are old divers and bold divers but no old bold divers. I just say no to both now but every once in a while I get tempted.
Used to be into deeper stuff, now like it easier. Did a week down in Mexico in 2015 and decided the caves down in Akumal suited me just fine. Still do some stuff in N Fl, just nothing deep anymore.

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Old 03-26-2017, 08:33 AM   #129
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Used to be into deeper stuff, now like it easier. Did a week down in Mexico in 2015 and decided the caves down in Akumal suited me just fine. Still do some stuff in N Fl, just nothing deep anymore.



Ted


Akumal has nice, shallow, warm but long duration caves. I've only been once, late '80's.
Cave nirvana. I may have passed my tolerance for the 4 and 5 tank dives. Done eagles nest and diepolder 3 a few times and still consider a retirement plan that targets ft white. But there is so much discovery to do in the bahamas underground world.
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Old 03-26-2017, 09:54 AM   #130
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Akumal has nice, shallow, warm but long duration caves. I've only been once, late '80's.
Cave nirvana. I may have passed my tolerance for the 4 and 5 tank dives. Done eagles nest and diepolder 3 a few times and still consider a retirement plan that targets ft white. But there is so much discovery to do in the bahamas underground world.
Done the Nest a few times. I'm at that point where I want the bottom time longer than the deco. Back to back 2 hour dives with lunch in between in Akumal with no deco is my idea of fun cave diving.

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Old 03-27-2017, 04:19 AM   #131
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Cool so we have some old school cavers here. OC when I first saw your handle I immediately thought OC meant open circuit, then I stopped in ocean city for fuel and saw your charter boat and figured it out. Dave if you want a perfect n fl gas station send me a pm. I need to sell a Bauer mariner with securus filtration along with a 4500 psi cascade system. I think it has a little over 1000 hrs on it.
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Old 03-27-2017, 06:13 PM   #132
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As a pilot, I learned to live by and love redundancy after many years operating single engine airplanes. Both have their place, but given the chance, a twin is my choice.

In fact, I enjoy redundancy in significant capabilities on my boat that make a difference to me besides propulsion. Lighting, heat, ventilation, coffee-making, refrigeration, entertainment, Wifi, and navigation to name a few that immediately come to mind. For others, I try to carry a spare part that may make a difference someday.

Knowing this crowd, I'm betting there are many boats here that can say the same. Gotta love redundancy...
FlyWright,

I'm with you on a airplane.... but a different animal. When the engine in single quits, you ARE coming down, but may make an airport. If the engine quits in your twin engine plane you MAY come down, but really have an excellent chance of never being a statistic. However a twin engine airplane is a bunch more than a single, vs a twin boat is a bit more than a single.

With the boat, if the single engine quits, it's an inconvenience, if an engine in a twin engine boat quits, it's a nothing... just a bit more time. Neither one will cause a crash.

However, comparing a planes vs boat, once you get to turbines and diesels, they rarely quit, and a stronger argument could be made for a single.

In aviation, I've had zero turbine failures, but 5 piston failures..... huge difference.

In boating, I've never had a diesel, but I could easily take the single.... just for simplicity. In the piston boats, twins or singles they ALL have failed at some point, but mostly minor and have never required a tow service, but have been towed many times over the past 30+ years.

As for a choice, get what makes sense to your operation.
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Old 03-27-2017, 06:16 PM   #133
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Erie Canal is speeds though, nothing to do with wakes.

Florida has two type of wake zones.

Idle Speed-No Wake. The minimum speed necessary to maintain steerage. No wake expected.

Slow Speed-Minimum Wake. Very small wake. Bow can not be even slightly elevated.

Florida also has 25 mph, 30 mph, and 35 mph speed zones.
BandB,

Question..... do the wake police actually check for speed in the Erie? Never been there.

However, in FL they only look at the wake, not the speed. Also, on the west coast I've never heard or seen one stopped from going too fast in the 25 to 35 zones. No and slow wake they're getting stopped all the time.
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Old 03-27-2017, 06:28 PM   #134
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Ahh, but its not just engine issues. Twin props and shafts provide redundancy if you hit a deadhead, whale reef ECT.
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Old 03-27-2017, 06:42 PM   #135
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BandB,

Question..... do the wake police actually check for speed in the Erie? Never been there.

However, in FL they only look at the wake, not the speed. Also, on the west coast I've never heard or seen one stopped from going too fast in the 25 to 35 zones. No and slow wake they're getting stopped all the time.
Actually the speed limits are all about lock timing. If it says 5 mph in an area and it's two miles to the next lock, that means they're going to expect you to arrive to the next lock in 24 minutes and if you arrive sooner, you'll sit and wait. So, they're not so much to control wakes as they are timing mechanisms. The lockmasters would be the ones who would say something and i never heard them say a word to anyone about speed.

We've only been through once and it was very early in the season so not a lot of traffic. Here's the canal's write up on speed.

Canal Speed Limits are established to regulate the speeds of vessels transiting through the New York State Canal System in a way that minimizes wake damage to residential property and canal infrastructure, while ensuring that recreational and commercial boaters have a safe and enjoyable experience on the waterway.

Locks along the Canal System are set up to admit traffic through based on travel times in accordance with established limits, so exceeding the speed limit when traveling from lock to lock will not result in traveling through the Canal System more quickly. Boaters who exceed the speed limit may be subject to fines and may have their Canal pass revoked.

Speed limits established for vessels traveling through the Canal System do not necessarily apply to smaller recreational vessels using the rivers, lakes, and reservoirs which comprise the Canal System, but not traveling through the locks. Operators of these vessels should ensure compliance with all aspects of New York State Navigation Law Leaving NYS Canal's Website , as well as local ordinances and advisories, observe "No Wake" restrictions, and boat safely and courteously.
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Old 03-27-2017, 09:39 PM   #136
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.....In aviation, I've had zero turbine failures, but 5 piston failures..... huge difference.....
So,replace existing single or twin boat engines with one turbine engine, problem solved.
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Old 03-27-2017, 10:06 PM   #137
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Actually the speed limits are all about lock timing. If it says 5 mph in an area and it's two miles to the next lock, that means they're going to expect you to arrive to the next lock in 24 minutes and if you arrive sooner, you'll sit and wait. So, they're not so much to control wakes as they are timing mechanisms. The lockmasters would be the ones who would say something and i never heard them say a word to anyone about speed.

We've only been through once and it was very early in the season so not a lot of traffic. Here's the canal's write up on speed.

Canal Speed Limits are established to regulate the speeds of vessels transiting through the New York State Canal System in a way that minimizes wake damage to residential property and canal infrastructure, while ensuring that recreational and commercial boaters have a safe and enjoyable experience on the waterway.

Locks along the Canal System are set up to admit traffic through based on travel times in accordance with established limits, so exceeding the speed limit when traveling from lock to lock will not result in traveling through the Canal System more quickly. Boaters who exceed the speed limit may be subject to fines and may have their Canal pass revoked.

Speed limits established for vessels traveling through the Canal System do not necessarily apply to smaller recreational vessels using the rivers, lakes, and reservoirs which comprise the Canal System, but not traveling through the locks. Operators of these vessels should ensure compliance with all aspects of New York State Navigation Law Leaving NYS Canal's Website , as well as local ordinances and advisories, observe "No Wake" restrictions, and boat safely and courteously.
BandB,

That make no sense, as who knows when you're going to enter the canal. After you're in there, from lock to lock it does make sense to time it, as do timed traffic lights. I have no issue with whatever, but when I get to the Erie, I prefer to know the protocol.
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Old 03-27-2017, 10:07 PM   #138
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So,replace existing single or twin boat engines with one turbine engine, problem solved.
BruceK,

Makes sense.
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Old 03-27-2017, 10:30 PM   #139
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BandB,

That make no sense, as who knows when you're going to enter the canal. After you're in there, from lock to lock it does make sense to time it, as do timed traffic lights. I have no issue with whatever, but when I get to the Erie, I prefer to know the protocol.
No, it makes sense. If it works like designed and you kept the speed, then every lock would open up for you moments before your arrival and the trip would be very smooth. We did have locks timing perfectly for us but we were often the only boat so didn't necessarily attribute it to speed. Also, a lot of people have trouble trying to hold position to wait for a lock to open and the design is to eliminate that.

We found the lockmasters to be very nice and seldom had to wait long. The process was very smooth for us, but then there were not a lot of other boats on the canal yet.
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Old 03-28-2017, 07:48 AM   #140
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No, it makes sense. If it works like designed and you kept the speed, then every lock would open up for you moments before your arrival and the trip would be very smooth. We did have locks timing perfectly for us but we were often the only boat so didn't necessarily attribute it to speed. Also, a lot of people have trouble trying to hold position to wait for a lock to open and the design is to eliminate that.

We found the lockmasters to be very nice and seldom had to wait long. The process was very smooth for us, but then there were not a lot of other boats on the canal yet.
BandB,

I'd agree, it would make sense to time the locks, I thought in "entering" the canal we were talking about something else.

Now, question for you.... When you "enter" the canal, do you call the first lock and give them an ETA. How far out would you do that. Also, is there a best time of the year to do the canal or a bad time? I assume from what I hear there are a lot of locks along the canal.
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