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Old 08-12-2020, 09:47 AM   #81
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I followed up on the previous post about idle cooling to prevent coking of passages and got this advice from the same engineer....

"I may have misunderstood his message, I read it as circulating oil or raw water after shutdown. Of course it is a good idea to idle the engine for a brief period before shutdown, if for no other reason than to let the turbo bearings and hot section cool a bit.

Shutting down a turbo'ed engine from high idle is really bad advice. All that does is spool up the turbine then remove all oil flow!"
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Old 08-14-2020, 04:47 PM   #82
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Oil going thru a turbo doesn’t just provide lubrication it removes heat.
When I was an engineer aboard tugs the ones without water cooled turbos had an electric oil pump that would run through the turbo for about 20 minutes to cool it down. Tapping the start button before startup would also start the same pump to ensure oil to the turbo when starting. If that pump didn’t work we would idle for 1/2hr before shut down.
My 200tdi land Rover has an exhaust temp gauge. I don’t shut it down until the exhaust temp Is 300 degrees or below.
My Diesel Duck has a Cummins B3.9M. No turbo with 75 Big Horses.
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Old 08-14-2020, 06:20 PM   #83
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Believe that the increase of turbo-engines verses naturally-aspirated id mostly due to governments' concern for air pollution which virtually mandates turbos. ... Thankfully, living naturally-aspirated without noticeable pollution.
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Old 08-14-2020, 07:07 PM   #84
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'Lo All, My old Albin 43 had twin Cummins 6BT5.9M 210 HP engines. Power required to put the boat at hull speed (where I usually ran her), was calculated at about 54 HP (IIRC). I was considering investigating detuning the engines by removing the turbos and changing the injectors. Hurricane Michael obviated the question. At any rate, I believe that the boat was way overpowered. For whatever reason, it didn't plane very well, unless the power was way up, where she guzzled fuel. I did have one turbo freeze up due to carbon in the bearings, but we were able to work it free and it performed properly afterwards - but I always opened the throttles on occasion. And yes, when that turbo froze up, there was a black cloud following us unless the engine was essentially at idle power.
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Old 08-15-2020, 06:08 PM   #85
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on Detroit it is a scavenger pump, They have intake ports , no intake valves. They will not pump air in to the cylinders with out the pump. If you remove and mount on a gas engine then it becomes a supercharger
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Old 08-15-2020, 06:22 PM   #86
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Some real pearls here. Thank you. I’ve learned a thing or two. For the last 3 decades I’ve carried spare injectors, alternator, pumps, belts, filters, some hoses, rescue tape and fluids. Are there other things I should be carrying when off the grid? Does the list change with NA, turbo, or common rail?
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Old 08-16-2020, 12:52 PM   #87
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Performance does not come at the expense of long term reliability

The more one pushes to achieve more torque at higher engine loads the greater the general degradation of long term reliability. It doesn't matter if you are talking a turbocharged diesel or a human being.

My advice based on experience is simple. If you are using your engines at greater than 90% load a majority of the time get every extension to your warranty available to you. About six months before the expiration of the last extension get a good engine survey done and get repaired what needs repair and then sell the boat
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Old 08-16-2020, 02:31 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlr219 View Post
The more one pushes to achieve more torque at higher engine loads the greater the general degradation of long term reliability. It doesn't matter if you are talking a turbocharged diesel or a human being.

My advice based on experience is simple. If you are using your engines at greater than 90% load a majority of the time get every extension to your warranty available to you. About six months before the expiration of the last extension get a good engine survey done and get repaired what needs repair and then sell the boat
As mentioned in previous posts, the % load a diesel can safely operate at is all in the Rating. Genset duty, river tugs, dirt moving equipment etc come to mind when referring to continuous full load operation.

For example, one of the best and most popular industrial diesels out there is the Cat 3406. At an A Rating it is designed for 100% load full time putting out around 350HP. Cummins, Scania, Perkins Sabre, JD, Volvo and others make their versions of continuous duty "A" "M" etc rated diesels. All of course have turbos.
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Old 08-16-2020, 04:09 PM   #89
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Interesting conversation.

However it does beg the question; what is everyone's definition of continuous duty, and the difference in that definition between commercial and recreational?

Is there really any difference between the boat fishing the grand banks for a month at a time and the recreational boat running from Charleston to Bermuda when it comes to running continuous duty?

BTW my diesels are turbo'd but do not have aftercoolers.
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Old 08-16-2020, 04:16 PM   #90
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To me, continuous duty means you can run it at WOT until it's time to change the oil. And do that again and again while still getting a good lifespan out of the engine.
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Old 08-17-2020, 08:21 PM   #91
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I think the notion of load has to play a part in the “work” that the power plant must perform. WOT does not reflect work on its own.

One needs to take into account props, transmission, and external conditions to determine the load on an engine. Running at continuous high load will cause problems in due course.
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Old 08-17-2020, 09:05 PM   #92
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Continuous duty-
For use in applications requiring uninterrupted and unlimited service at full power.
Load Factor: 80% to 100%
Typical Annual Operation Hours: 5000 to 8000 hours
Typical Hull Forms: Displacement
Typical Applications: Freighters, tugboats, bottom drag trawlers, or deep river tugboats, dredges
Heavy Duty

For nearly continuous use in variable load applications where full power is limited to 8 hours out of every 10 hours of operation.
Load Factor: 40% to 80%
Typical Annual Operation Hours: 3000 to 5000 hours
Typical Hull Forms: Displacement
Typical Applications: Mid-water fishing trawlers, crew and supply boats, ferries, purse seiners, and towboats. Or auxiliary applications like thrusters and cargo pumps in dynamic positioning.
Medium Duty

For moderate use in variable load applications where full power is limited to 6 hours out of every 12 hours of operation.
Load Factor: 20% to 80%
Typical Annual Operation Hours: 2000 to 4000 hours
Typical Hull Forms: Semi-displacement and displacement
Typical Applications: Ferries, harbor tugs, fishing boats (designed for high speed), offshore service boats, (non-cargo) displacement hull yachts, or short trip coastal freighters.
Light Duty

For intermittent use in variable load applications where full power is limited to two hours out of every eight hours of operation.
Load Factor: Up to 50%
Typical Annual Operation Hours: 1000 to 3000 hours per year
Typical Hull Forms: Planing and semi-displacement
Typical Applications: Offshore patrol boats, customs boats, police boats, some non-net fishing, fireboats, military and police vessels, or harbor tugs. Or auxiliary applications like emergency fire pumps and hydraulic power packs.
Pleasure Duty

For infrequent use in variable load applications where full power is limited to one hour out of every eight hours of operation.
Load Factor: Up to 30%
Typical Annual Operation Hours: 250 to 1000 hours
Typical Hull Forms: Planing
Typical Applications: Pleasure craft, harbor patrol boats, harbor master boats, some fishing or patrol boats, sportfishers, motoryachts, and cruisers.
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Old 08-18-2020, 08:10 PM   #93
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All and any engines will likely last longest and in best possible condition by always enabling cool down at idle for a minimum of 5 minutes.

This is not rocket science. This is letting the engine's multiple material products' combinations reconstitute back into their relaxed, more normalized molecular positions.
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Old 08-21-2020, 04:41 AM   #94
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The manual for my Yanmar 6LPA recomends that it be run up to high revs 5 times before letting idle for 5 minutes then shutting down. I feel like a teenager with his first motor bike but gotta assume the Yanmar engineers may just know a bit more than some whose opinions i have read. Certainly more than me.
To minimise my embarrassment i run hard at varying high revs for 15/30 minutes before throttling back to enter the marina. Thus demonstrating that i think i know more that the Yanmar blokes.
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Old 08-21-2020, 09:20 AM   #95
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As mentioned in previous posts, the % load a diesel can safely operate at is all in the Rating. Genset duty, river tugs, dirt moving equipment etc come to mind when referring to continuous full load operation.

For example, one of the best and most popular industrial diesels out there is the Cat 3406. At an A Rating it is designed for 100% load full time putting out around 350HP. Cummins, Scania, Perkins Sabre, JD, Volvo and others make their versions of continuous duty "A" "M" etc rated diesels. All of course have turbos.
And just to help people understand, the 3406 in a pleasure boat application is an 800hp engine. So you too can have a “continuous duty” if you run the engine at about 45% power....continuously.
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Old 08-21-2020, 09:24 AM   #96
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And just to help people understand, the 3406 in a pleasure boat application is an 800hp engine. So you too can have a “continuous duty” if you run the engine at about 45% power....continuously.
Keep in mind, unless you underprop the pleasure version heavily, it's not necessarily the same. If, say, the 350hp continuous version is rated at 1800 RPM and the 800hp version is rated at 2200, then backing off to 350hp output on the 800hp engine will likely have you making 350hp at less than 1800 rpm. Depending on what the durability concerns are on that engine and why it's rated the way it is, plus any differences in the fuel curve on the continuous version, you may still not achieve the durability of the continuous output version. Then again, the 800hp version might have some internal upgrades and when backed off to 350hp it might do just as well even with the RPM difference.
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Old 08-21-2020, 10:18 AM   #97
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Turbos are a perfect answer for the typical trawler skipper.
Many think they can run rapids and escape weather. Maybe. Once in a great while it’s possible but 95% of the time .. no.
Guys just like to “let-r-rip”. The’d like to go fast most of the time but that clearly burns too much fuel. Cars, boats and even motorcycles.

But compared to NA engines the turbo gives the option of having a smaller and lighter engine that has overall benefits for performance. Overall performance like boat handling and seaworthiness is a plus for most boats.
But the turbo engine is much like a dream come true. More power and less weight.
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Old 08-21-2020, 11:18 AM   #98
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Turbos are a perfect answer for the typical trawler skipper.
Many think they can run rapids and escape weather. Maybe. Once in a great while it’s possible but 95% of the time .. no.
Guys just like to “let-r-rip”. The’d like to go fast most of the time but that clearly burns too much fuel. Cars, boats and even motorcycles.

But compared to NA engines the turbo gives the option of having a smaller and lighter engine that has overall benefits for performance. Overall performance like boat handling and seaworthiness is a plus for most boats.
But the turbo engine is much like a dream come true. More power and less weight.
And better efficiency which is why they were mandated(indirectly) in the first place.
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Old 08-21-2020, 06:07 PM   #99
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To me, continuous duty means you can run it at WOT until it's time to change the oil. And do that again and again while still getting a good lifespan out of the engine.
How do you square that with recreational engine manuals stating that WOT is to be used 10% or less of the running time? Change what WOT is?
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Old 08-21-2020, 06:09 PM   #100
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The manual for my Yanmar 6LPA recomends that it be run up to high revs 5 times before letting idle for 5 minutes then shutting down. I feel like a teenager with his first motor bike but gotta assume the Yanmar engineers may just know a bit more than some whose opinions i have read. Certainly more than me.
To minimise my embarrassment i run hard at varying high revs for 15/30 minutes before throttling back to enter the marina. Thus demonstrating that i think i know more that the Yanmar blokes.
Just run the engine where the turbo is contributing in the 80% load range and forget about all that revving prior to shutdown.
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