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Old 01-28-2018, 05:04 PM   #21
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Only on oil recommendations and/or engine/transmission oil analysis.
two discussions come up for trannies....

oil or ATF....

and only non detergent motor oil or any new oil with detergent and even multi vis....
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Old 01-28-2018, 05:04 PM   #22
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Only on oil recommendations and/or engine/transmission oil analysis.
Tom
Would the Castrol Garden 4T 30W be suitable for my TD 506's? Castrol claim it is suitable for API CD or CF lubrication needs as well, and NBs (post #3) indicated that CD oil is likely to be suitable.
https://www.castrol.com/en_au/austra...garden-4t.html
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Old 01-28-2018, 05:47 PM   #23
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hgjm8,
Do you think using engine lube oil in marine gearbox’s is an appropriate practice?

Lots of additives for engine oil would be not of any benefit or even harmful in a gearbox application. At best additives like what they put in to keep the oil from mixing w fuels is space lost where oil there could definitely help lubricate the gears and bearings. The extreme pressure additives help the gear oil from prematurely breaking down in gear oils but I don’t think they are found in engine lube oil. There again oil could be substituted for additives that are not needed. But then I see gear oils with multi-vis additives.
It seems to me oils should be chosen to best suit the usage. And additive packages are the biggest variable in specific usage.

Also speaking of additives multi-viscosity improvers are added to lube oil to stabilize the oils viscosity. What are they like physically and what percentage of the oil needs to be removed to accomodate them? I heard or read that VI improvers were very small rubber balls. As a powder probably but I’m curious about this.
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Old 01-28-2018, 06:53 PM   #24
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Tom
Would the Castrol Garden 4T 30W be suitable for my TD 506's? Castrol claim it is suitable for API CD or CF lubrication needs as well, and NBs (post #3) indicated that CD oil is likely to be suitable.
https://www.castrol.com/en_au/austra...garden-4t.html
Insequent,
Most engine oils will be suitable for use in marine gear transmissions as they are not friction modified so clutches should lockup soundly and without excessive slip or shudder. Automatic Transmission Fluids (ATFs) could also be used and would provide much longer life than engine oils. ATFs are friction modified and tend to smooth out shifts by laying down a very fine layer of friction modifier chemistry on the clutch friction surfaces. Check with the gearbox manufacturer to see if they now recommend ATF formulations. If so, you'd be best off with an Allison approved TES-295 product since it would be stable for many many hours (perhaps years). I wrote the Allison TES-295 specification when I was there.

API CD and CF are quite old categories. API "C" means "Compression Ignition" so these API categories define diesel oil specifications. Passenger car motor oils (PCMOs), on the other hand, will carry an API "S" designation meaning "Spark Ignition". The latest PCMO API Category is "SN". Whereas the latest API HDDO (Heavy Duty Diesel Oil) category is API CK-4. You'll still find plenty of API CJ-4 oils on the market and they will be quite good at providing viscosity and oxidation resistance along with all the other properties formulated into these products (seal compatibility, rust/corrision resistance, etc).

With regard to the "30W" viscosity, that I see being used here, per SAE, "W" means winter. So, it only applies to multi-grade products (SAE 5W-30, SAE 15W-40, etc). If it's a straight weight viscosity grade (30, 40, etc.) you should refer to it as "SAE 30 Grade". That is the proper use of these viscosity terms. You'll find engine oil viscosity specifications in the SAE J300 Standard (link to the SAE J300 table below).

Hope this helps !!! PS: I'm not here to write books; so, please keep it simple and look through my technical paper.

Links:

API CATEGORIES: API | Oil Categories

SAE J300 STANDARD: SAE J300 | Widman International
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Old 01-28-2018, 07:00 PM   #25
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hgjm8,
Do you think using engine lube oil in marine gearbox’s is an appropriate practice?

Lots of additives for engine oil would be not of any benefit or even harmful in a gearbox application. At best additives like what they put in to keep the oil from mixing w fuels is space lost where oil there could definitely help lubricate the gears and bearings. The extreme pressure additives help the gear oil from prematurely breaking down in gear oils but I don’t think they are found in engine lube oil. There again oil could be substituted for additives that are not needed. But then I see gear oils with multi-vis additives.
It seems to me oils should be chosen to best suit the usage. And additive packages are the biggest variable in specific usage.

Also speaking of additives multi-viscosity improvers are added to lube oil to stabilize the oils viscosity. What are they like physically and what percentage of the oil needs to be removed to accomodate them? I heard or read that VI improvers were very small rubber balls. As a powder probably but I’m curious about this.
Nomad Willy,
I discuss "Viscosity Index Improvers" (VII) in my technical paper. Basically, they are very long chain polymers that impart higher viscosity to low viscosity base oils. Take a multi-grade oil like SAE 5W-30. You start with base oils that meet the SAE J300 Standard for SAE 5W oils. Then you add VII polymers that swell with temperature and make the oil act like an SAE 30 grade oil at operating temperature as measured at 100C (212F). With time, these polymers get cut-up by gears and bearings under very high stresses. This action is called "sheardown". It happens with multi-grade oils only and not with straight weight oils. However, you'll have better overall viscosity coverage with a multi-grade oil if the engine is exposed to wide ambient (outside air) temperature swings. I cover this in my Technical Paper.

NOTE: Among other oil parameters, oil analysis, measures the oil's viscosity at 100C. This allows the boat owner to know the amount of shear that has occurred over time and whether or not the oil remains "in grade". For instance, SAE J300 defines oil viscosities and specifies a minimum viscosity of 9.3 cSt (centi-Stokes), as measured at 100C, for SAE 30 grade oils. Once the oil drops below 9.3 cSt, it is no longer considered an SAE 30 oil and may begin to effect engine/gearbox wear since it may no longer be able to adequately support the loads within the engine/transmission (gearbox) gears and bearings.

Hope this helps !!!
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Old 01-28-2018, 07:51 PM   #26
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hgjm8,
I read that to be saying engine lube oil and returns to a viscosity closer to it’s base. In your example 5W-30 would become perhaps 0W-20 after a peroid of time. Is that period of time within normal change intervals or beyond it?

How much “sheardown” does SAE 30 experience? I would expect none as there’s no “polymers” to break down.

I’m one to tend toward using SAE 30 and warming my boat engine up slowly eliminating the need for MV oils. Our engine compartments are kept above 40 degrees with heaters in winter and warm (relative) surrounding waters in contact with the hull. Even in Alaska I had no starting problems whatsoever. I reason my SAE 30 is slightly better at 100c than SAE 5W-30. Any truth in that in your opinion?

Also will an SAE 30 oil have additives that make it more suitable to boats in marine use than SAE 5W-30? My thinking is that SAE W15-40 is best suited as a truck engine lube oil and SAE 30 is more suitable bor boats and marine.
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Old 01-29-2018, 01:24 AM   #27
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Thanks for replies!

Auskiwi - info on the CAT oil would be useful when you can provide it.

Commodave - Amazon started here with much fanfare and nervousness from competitors last Dec. But they have pretty much flopped so far, not much range and no engine/gear oil, prices often not competitive.

I can source some 30W oil, but not sure of spec at this point. One is Castrol 4T, a 30W oil for 4 stroke lawnmowers. Another is Prolube. I have never heard of them but their product would seem to be suitable.
https://prolube.com.au/shop/diesel-e...ae-30-cd-sf-3/

The major oil suppliers eg Shell don't appear to routinely carry it in outlets, but likely it can be ordered in.
Here is what Twin Disc recommended that I use in my Trannies. They told me NOT to use regular automotive 30wt. I have 3208T/As connected to them.
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Old 01-29-2018, 01:37 AM   #28
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Insequent,
Most engine oils will be suitable for use in marine gear transmissions as they are not friction modified so clutches should lockup soundly and without excessive slip or shudder. Automatic Transmission Fluids (ATFs) could also be used and would provide much longer life than engine oils. ATFs are friction modified and tend to smooth out shifts by laying down a very fine layer of friction modifier chemistry on the clutch friction surfaces. Check with the gearbox manufacturer to see if they now recommend ATF formulations. If so, you'd be best off with an Allison approved TES-295 product since it would be stable for many many hours (perhaps years). I wrote the Allison TES-295 specification when I was there.

API CD and CF are quite old categories. API "C" means "Compression Ignition" so these API categories define diesel oil specifications. Passenger car motor oils (PCMOs), on the other hand, will carry an API "S" designation meaning "Spark Ignition". The latest PCMO API Category is "SN". Whereas the latest API HDDO (Heavy Duty Diesel Oil) category is API CK-4. You'll still find plenty of API CJ-4 oils on the market and they will be quite good at providing viscosity and oxidation resistance along with all the other properties formulated into these products (seal compatibility, rust/corrision resistance, etc).

With regard to the "30W" viscosity, that I see being used here, per SAE, "W" means winter. So, it only applies to multi-grade products (SAE 5W-30, SAE 15W-40, etc). If it's a straight weight viscosity grade (30, 40, etc.) you should refer to it as "SAE 30 Grade". That is the proper use of these viscosity terms. You'll find engine oil viscosity specifications in the SAE J300 Standard (link to the SAE J300 table below).

Hope this helps !!! PS: I'm not here to write books; so, please keep it simple and look through my technical paper.

Links:

API CATEGORIES: API | Oil Categories

SAE J300 STANDARD: SAE J300 | Widman International
Thanks for your response! It clarifies things for me.
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Old 01-29-2018, 01:44 AM   #29
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Here is what Twin Disc recommended that I use in my Trannies. They told me NOT to use regular automotive 30wt. I have 3208T/As connected to them.
Thanks ASD
Your gears are likely more modern than mine, which are 1981. I will try and get a response from the local TD guys that is specific to old 506's. I'm sure the CAT oil would be very good, but I might not need that good a spec.
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Old 01-29-2018, 01:51 AM   #30
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I seem to remember when frequenting automotive workshops that gearbox oils had a distinctive smell. Or was it diff oils? Or both? That said, better rely on manufacturer advice than olfactory senses.
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Old 01-29-2018, 02:00 AM   #31
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Thanks ASD
Your gears are likely more modern than mine, which are 1981. I will try and get a response from the local TD guys that is specific to old 506's. I'm sure the CAT oil would be very good, but I might not need that good a spec.
Mine are 1987 MG-507
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Old 01-29-2018, 07:26 AM   #32
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hgjm8,
I read that to be saying engine lube oil and returns to a viscosity closer to it’s base. In your example 5W-30 would become perhaps 0W-20 after a peroid of time. Is that period of time within normal change intervals or beyond it?

How much “sheardown” does SAE 30 experience? I would expect none as there’s no “polymers” to break down.

I’m one to tend toward using SAE 30 and warming my boat engine up slowly eliminating the need for MV oils. Our engine compartments are kept above 40 degrees with heaters in winter and warm (relative) surrounding waters in contact with the hull. Even in Alaska I had no starting problems whatsoever. I reason my SAE 30 is slightly better at 100c than SAE 5W-30. Any truth in that in your opinion?

Also will an SAE 30 oil have additives that make it more suitable to boats in marine use than SAE 5W-30? My thinking is that SAE W15-40 is best suited as a truck engine lube oil and SAE 30 is more suitable bor boats and marine.
You are correct, in that, SAE 30 grade oils do not have Viscosity Index Improver (VII) additives. Therefore, they should remain constant viscosity of between 9.3 and 12.4 cSt at 100C. Multi-grade oils will sheardown and the rate of shear is related to the amount of VII in the formulation along with the amount of stresses over a period of time. Oil analysis reveals the change in viscosity over time (shear rate). There's no other way to measure it. In the case of an SAE 5W-30, the oil will eventually shear down to the base oil viscosity (BOV) and it will eventually become an SAE 5W oil. If oils are left in too long without checking them, they can undogo many changes that include loss of viscosity, oxidation (which tends to make the oil more acidic and thicker over time) and contamination from fuel dilution, dust, dirt, etc.

"Oil Life" can be pictured as a (3) legged stool
The (3) legs of oil life are viscosity (physical change), oxidation (chemical change) and contamination. If any of the (3) legs weakens, the oil falls apart and needs to be changed. Oil sampling and analysis reveals all three and will set the proper change interval for optimum oil life. This is true in engines and transmissions (gearboxes).

Hope this helps !!
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Old 01-29-2018, 07:45 AM   #33
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Mine are 1987 MG-507
Link to MG-507 Owner's Manual:http://www.twindisc.com/wp-content/u...vH_0116_CD.pdf

In Section 2, it specifies any Allison C-4 oil may be used. I signed most of the C-4 approvals for Allison Transmission. I can tell you that the Allison C-4 specification is now obsolete. But it included both engine oils and automatic transmission fluids (DEXRON-II, DEXRON-IIE and DEXRON-III). So, my recommendation would be to use an Allison approved TES-295 fluid which can be found at this link. Any of these oils will give excellent performance and last for very long periods of time. You'd just want to do oil sampling annually to check for any type contamination. The oil itself will remain stable over a very long period of time (years).

Allison TES-295 fluids list: On-Highway Fluids
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Old 01-29-2018, 08:44 AM   #34
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hzjcm8,
It does indeed.
Lots of variables.
I like the three legged stool.
I’ll just keep on keep’n on w SAE 30 and change often.

Re the gear oil I have a BW and use ATF. Will apply continue and change often.
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Old 01-29-2018, 01:00 PM   #35
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Link to MG-507 Owner's Manual:http://www.twindisc.com/wp-content/u...vH_0116_CD.pdf

In Section 2, it specifies any Allison C-4 oil may be used. I signed most of the C-4 approvals for Allison Transmission. I can tell you that the Allison C-4 specification is now obsolete. But it included both engine oils and automatic transmission fluids (DEXRON-II, DEXRON-IIE and DEXRON-III). So, my recommendation would be to use an Allison approved TES-295 fluid which can be found at this link. Any of these oils will give excellent performance and last for very long periods of time. You'd just want to do oil sampling annually to check for any type contamination. The oil itself will remain stable over a very long period of time (years).

Allison TES-295 fluids list: On-Highway Fluids
The pic below is what is recommended for my MG-507. Must pass TO-2. This has been updated to TO-4. Depending on the operating temp will determine which viscosity you would use, 30wt or 40wt. Because I operate in the PNW and Alaska, I use 30wt.

I could not find TO-4-30wt in your normal auto stores. I could special order Delo Torque Force. It was easier to go to the local CAT store. Not that it matters, my MG-507 are stamped Caterpillar. I am told that the engine and tranny was a package.
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Old 01-29-2018, 03:49 PM   #36
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I have mg5061 gear and service manual say: use only SAE-API service class CD engine oil certified to meet TO-2 transmission oil specification or type C-3 transmission fluid. Also approved is SAE-API service class CC engine oil.

Steady operation conditions(GEAR OIL) 150°-185° f SAE30 and 185°-210° f SAE40

And Multi-viccosity oils (i.e. 10W-40, etc.) should not be used in Twin Dick marine Transmissions.

I hope help your oil questions.

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Old 01-29-2018, 04:54 PM   #37
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Tom, some great info on debunking the mythical alphabet soup of lubricants. I went through this exact same exercise in 2016 with our TD MG506-1's. I went back and forth with TD and finally engaged some technical services folks at Amsoil, a product I use exclusively. I did not see any references to synthetic oils in the thread and thought I'd share our results. First, TD's spec was "any two of the three listed below" which included one motor oil, one transmission fluid and one gear oil. So, since they seemed to like motor oil in these boxes the best, I went with 15-40 Diesel oil. (synthetic of course) A couple of things happened.

First, a persistent howl in the port tranny at 1,000 RPMs dissappeared. Second, gear oil temps declined by about 30 degrees after a full day of running. Over 4,000 hours on both and they hum like sewing machines.
One common misconception is the oil will break down and go from 40w to 15w. This is not true.

As an aside, one of the docs I got from TD listed "used motor oil" as an acceptable fill. I'm thinking these things may not be that fussy, as long as you are using the right type of lubricant, motor oil, gear oil, transmission fluid - based on your best info for that particular mixer. On the transmission tags mine say "check the manual for proper lubricant" I have the manual and it says "check the tag on the transmission for proper lubricant"
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Old 01-29-2018, 06:16 PM   #38
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Interesting experience. My takeaway is that the old 506's are built like a brick sh...house, and if not pushed hard then almost anything will do. Caltexflanc's tagline is echoing in my head for some reason......


But here is a short reply from the local TD dealer:

Hi Brian

SAE 30 MONO GRADE OIL is correct and definitely no Multi grades as this is a hydraulic transmission and Multi grades are not suitable in hydraulics.
Or for gear protection in transmissions.
Cheers.

Best regards
Kevin Nugent | Workshop Manager


I now have Kevin's phone #, but don't really see a need to take it further. I'll continue with SAE 30, very likely the Prolube I linked to above. I mostly cruise at 8-9kn. Were I pushing the gears hard, running at 16-17 kn for long periods, then I would likely go for the CAT or Allison oils.

Thanks to everyone for your comments, I learnt a few things....
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Old 01-29-2018, 07:37 PM   #39
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Tom, some great info on debunking the mythical alphabet soup of lubricants. I went through this exact same exercise in 2016 with our TD MG506-1's. I went back and forth with TD and finally engaged some technical services folks at Amsoil, a product I use exclusively. I did not see any references to synthetic oils in the thread and thought I'd share our results. First, TD's spec was "any two of the three listed below" which included one motor oil, one transmission fluid and one gear oil. So, since they seemed to like motor oil in these boxes the best, I went with 15-40 Diesel oil. (synthetic of course) A couple of things happened.

First, a persistent howl in the port tranny at 1,000 RPMs dissappeared. Second, gear oil temps declined by about 30 degrees after a full day of running. Over 4,000 hours on both and they hum like sewing machines.
One common misconception is the oil will break down and go from 40w to 15w. This is not true.

As an aside, one of the docs I got from TD listed "used motor oil" as an acceptable fill. I'm thinking these things may not be that fussy, as long as you are using the right type of lubricant, motor oil, gear oil, transmission fluid - based on your best info for that particular mixer. On the transmission tags mine say "check the manual for proper lubricant" I have the manual and it says "check the tag on the transmission for proper lubricant"
“One common misconception is the oil will break down and go from 40w to 15w. This is not true. “

It is true. Oil analysis will confirm it and It will happen every time. It won’t go all the way down to SAE 15W, in most cases, but it will always drop. That’s just the nature of the viscosity index improvers.
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Old 01-30-2018, 04:01 PM   #40
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hzjcm8,
It does indeed.
Lots of variables.
I like the three legged stool.
I’ll just keep on keep’n on w SAE 30 and change often.

Re the gear oil I have a BW and use ATF. Will apply continue and change often.
Here's a "visual" of my 3-legged stool analogy.
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