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01-29-2020, 04:50 AM
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#1
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Guru
City: Saint Petersburg
Vessel Name: Weebles
Vessel Model: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 7,179
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Throttle /gear controls. Single vs double?
Upper and Lowe helm stations on my Willard 36 are being rebuilt. I'm a bit short on space and thinking of replacing my old double lever Morse throttle and gear controls with a single dual-action lever. Outside of personal preference and force of habit, any operational comments? Part of my thinking is my wife, who wants to spend more time doing close quarters so I can handle docking and and anchors, would find a single lever more intuitive.
Thoughts ? Concerns? Any brand better than another, especially for exposed flybridge?
https://www.defender.com/product.jsp...038&id=1449917
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Cruising our 1970 Willard 36 trawler from California to Florida
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01-29-2020, 05:13 AM
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#2
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TF Site Team
City: Seneca Lake NY
Vessel Name: Bacchus
Vessel Model: MS 34 HT Trawler
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 7,828
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I've had both and think your reasoning is spot on.
I dont have a lot of experience but my current single eng / si gel lever electronic Glendining has been flawless in my lower helm (only).
Others have expressed some issues but I dont know the details.
I wouldn't shy away from a boat with either but given a choice it would be a single lever.
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Don
2008 MS 34 HT Trawler
"Bacchus"
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01-29-2020, 05:57 AM
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#3
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Guru
City: St Augustine,Fl
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,798
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Kobelt controls, whether single or double. Ultimate cables are green cablecraft .
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Jack ...Chicken of the sea! Been offshore 3 miles once
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01-29-2020, 06:37 AM
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#4
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Guru
City: Saint Petersburg
Vessel Name: Weebles
Vessel Model: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 7,179
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Thanks Gents! Helpful. Kobelt is pretty pricey - not sure I'll go with them.
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Cruising our 1970 Willard 36 trawler from California to Florida
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01-29-2020, 07:18 AM
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#5
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Guru
City: Rochester, NY
Vessel Name: Hour Glass
Vessel Model: Chris Craft 381 Catalina
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 7,554
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Personally, I much prefer double lever controls. They require less thought / attention to use in a docking situation. No concern for over-shooting idle when going into gear from neutral and the long throttle sweep is easier to be precise with (although some electronic single lever controls have a reduced sensitivity mode for docking).
There's also another benefit to double lever controls, although it's mostly relevant to carb-ed gassers. It's possible to keep an engine throttled just above idle while shifting if you end up with an engine that wants to idle too low for whatever reason and is at risk of stalling.
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01-29-2020, 07:20 AM
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#6
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Enigma
City: Slicker?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,566
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Greetings,
Mr. mv. I much prefer the double controls for the reasons Mr. rs notes in post #5. As well, I very seldom touch the throttles when maneuvering.
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RTF
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01-29-2020, 07:24 AM
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#7
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Guru
City: Brookline, NH
Vessel Name: Shalloway
Vessel Model: Defever 44, twin Perkins
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 2,260
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I also much prefer double controls for many of the reasons cited above. There are plenty of YouTube videos of folks over "shifting" during docking and ending up with way too much throttle.
Ken
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01-29-2020, 07:35 AM
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#8
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Guru
City: Saint Petersburg
Vessel Name: Weebles
Vessel Model: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 7,179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rslifkin
Personally, I much prefer double lever controls. They require less thought / attention to use in a docking situation. No concern for over-shooting idle when going into gear from neutral and the long throttle sweep is easier to be precise with (although some electronic single lever controls have a reduced sensitivity mode for docking).
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This is where my mind was at, but figured 'old dog/new tricks' might apply so I posed the question to TF's 'bigger brain.' I'm slightly embarrassed to admit it, but when I've been away from the boat for a while, I have occasionally been guilty of grabbing the wrong lever. Rare, but it has happened, especially since the controls are on the left side of my flybridge and I'm right-handed.
Despite the personal preference, I will probably go with single-lever controls. I could really use the extra space as I've made room for a large MFD; and frankly I believe it would be much more comfortable for my wife/crew. I can get used to anything, and one of my goals is for her to do more of the helm-work so I can do the heavier lifting on deck.
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Cruising our 1970 Willard 36 trawler from California to Florida
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01-29-2020, 07:44 AM
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#9
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Guru
City: Saint Petersburg
Vessel Name: Weebles
Vessel Model: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 7,179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RT Firefly
Greetings,
Mr. mv. I much prefer the double controls for the reasons Mr. rs notes in post #5. As well, I very seldom touch the throttles when maneuvering.
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This is a really good point - on a double-engine boat, it makes more sense to have dual controls so the gears are isolated from the throttles. On a single-engine such as my Willard, that goes away. A full-keel displacement single engine boat often requires swinging the rudder with throttle-blasts at judicious moments, which is where the lever-mixup can easily occur.
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Cruising our 1970 Willard 36 trawler from California to Florida
Join our Instagram page @MVWeebles to follow along
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01-29-2020, 07:50 AM
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#10
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Guru
City: Rochester, NY
Vessel Name: Hour Glass
Vessel Model: Chris Craft 381 Catalina
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 7,554
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mvweebles
This is a really good point - on a double-engine boat, it makes more sense to have dual controls so the gears are isolated from the throttles. On a single-engine such as my Willard, that goes away. A full-keel displacement single engine boat often requires swinging the rudder with throttle-blasts at judicious moments, which is where the lever-mixup can easily occur.
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I've seen some singles put the levers on opposite sides of the helm (like a twin typically would) to avoid mix-ups. Then it becomes left hand gears, right hand throttle. Whichever hand is free at a given moment is the wheel hand. Likely to be the right hand most of the time, figuring the throttle blast comes after rudder movement.
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01-29-2020, 08:01 AM
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#11
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Technical Guru
City: Wilmington, NC
Vessel Name: Louisa
Vessel Model: Custom Built 38
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 6,194
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Make sure you understand how the single lever controls work when you have both an upper and lower helm. I think the teleflex one posted can only be used on one helm. To tie both helms together you need to go electronic or keep one as a dual lever or some other gymnastics.
The teleflex one posted has a mechanism that converts the pull/push on both cables. You can't simply connect the upper cables to the lower single lever unit and get the same motion.
Other brands might get away from that issue, but I have not researched that.
I too have a single engine dual helm boat, and prefer two levers for the reasons others posted. Also I have the engine idle set quite low and when maneuvering or sitting idle I bump it up a little, which is not possible with the single lever. Or inconvenient.
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01-29-2020, 08:08 AM
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#12
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Senior Member
City: Jacksonville
Vessel Name: Shady Grove
Vessel Model: TMC Custom 41 Trawler & S-2 10.3 Sail
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mvweebles
This is a really good point - on a double-engine boat, it makes more sense to have dual controls so the gears are isolated from the throttles. On a single-engine such as my Willard, that goes away. A full-keel displacement single engine boat often requires swinging the rudder with throttle-blasts at judicious moments, which is where the lever-mixup can easily occur.
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Yes, Twin engine I want double controls, could be because of a lifetime of familiarity . Single engine motorboat no opinion, sailboat definite opinion. Single lever are a godsend on sailboats where 80% are double lever at the steering pedestal with no rhyme or reason as to layout. Up reverse , down reverse, up throttle up, up throttle down on another. This is the stuff of nightmares in close quarters operating a strange boat.
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01-29-2020, 08:16 AM
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#13
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Guru
City: Saint Petersburg
Vessel Name: Weebles
Vessel Model: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 7,179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ski in NC
Make sure you understand how the single lever controls work when you have both an upper and lower helm. I think the teleflex one posted can only be used on one helm. To tie both helms together you need to go electronic or keep one as a dual lever or some other gymnastics.
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Thanks for this - I have a tech support inquiry into TeleFlex asking about config options. I'll update when I hear back.
Electronic controls are not an option (though I sure like them.....on other peoples' boats). Even if they were practical, they move the complexity meter in the wrong direction for my tastes. And above my pay-grade if/when troubleshooting is needed.
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Cruising our 1970 Willard 36 trawler from California to Florida
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01-29-2020, 08:33 AM
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#14
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Guru
City: Oconto, WI
Vessel Name: Best Alternative
Vessel Model: 36 Albin Aft Cabin
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,145
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I wouldn't have electronic controls on my boat. I'd remove them if I had them. Same for electronic steering.
Single or double throttle/shifters. I have double and guess that given a choice I would stay with them. They just seem to be more precise and less complicated than single lever.
Just one man's opinion. (But I guess that is what you asked for)
pete
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01-29-2020, 09:21 AM
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#15
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Guru
City: Ft Pierce
Vessel Name: Sold
Vessel Model: Was an Albin/PSN 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 28,149
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Pro captains often have to switch back and forth between dual controls and singles and between cable and electronic on a regular basis...sometimes multiple times a day. Most captains I know might have preferences but really can't get excited which setup is "better" ....even for particular boats.
The trick is not what the controls are, but a feel for maneuvering that doesn't require sudden or extreme control use.
So ...bottom line is get whatever you want and adjust...it doesn't take long if maneuvering is well practiced (or just done).
Plus electronic controls like many complicated things on a boat are handy for some things, necessary on some boats, or just plain overkill...but not necessarily bad for any one factor.
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01-29-2020, 09:47 AM
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#16
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Guru
City: Saint Petersburg
Vessel Name: Weebles
Vessel Model: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 7,179
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I heard back from TeleFlex/SeaStar (now a Dometic company). And I had a quick conversation with a senior tech. First, Ski/NC is partially right - depending on the cables used on the boat, their system may not be usable. SeaStar uses an intermediary mechanism: cables from each control to a central linkage, and then a single set of cables connect to the engine/trans. Kobelt's system has cables that go from upper helm to lower helm, then to engine, so there is no intermediate linkage.
Bottom line, this is more complicated than I thought. I am in the middle of a pretty comprehensive refit and have a ton of details to work through. I don't think I'll add to the list - just stay the course with dual-lever controls.
Thanks to everyone for your input. Really is helpful to have a sounding board for some of these things.
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Cruising our 1970 Willard 36 trawler from California to Florida
Join our Instagram page @MVWeebles to follow along
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01-29-2020, 10:06 AM
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#17
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Guru
City: Groton, CT
Vessel Name: Datenight
Vessel Model: North Pacific 45
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,106
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Hi Weeb,
Dual function single lever are my preference as well. I have two Kobelt 2046 (have to check to be sure on the number) single lever dual action controls. Bought them used for a project two boats ago but sold it before doing the conversion. At the time Vetus offered a "transmission" the cables went into to make shifting and throttle easier. Don't know if they still do. Also have the cable connectors.
I wil post pictures later if you are interested. Seem to work well. The chrome is a little worn on the arc shaped covers. Thinking of $275.00 plus shipping for the two if you or anyone else is interested.
Rob
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North Pacific 45
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01-29-2020, 10:12 AM
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#18
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Guru
City: Puget Sound
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 631
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I think the preference between single and double controls is what you are familiar with. I started boating with outboards, then I/Os, all single lever controls. The first large boat had mathers and I'm just more comfortable with a single lever control. The other advantage at least for my situation is we stern in to a tight slip. When entering the slip I run the boat from cockpit, it was relatively inexpensive to add another control head in the stern. While it could be done with a mechanical dual lever system it's not as easy....
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When crap happens, turn it into fertilizer for your tree of knowledge..... Scott Brodie
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01-29-2020, 10:17 AM
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#19
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Guru
City: Gig Harbor
Vessel Name: Sandpiper
Vessel Model: Bluewater 40 Pilothouse Trawler
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,315
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With single lever control, it's too easy to shift past neutral or not stay in neutral long enough for the transmission to slow down. Some marine transmission require shifting at lower RPM.
With a double, there is a delay long enough for the tranny to slow when moving hand from throttle to gear lever.
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01-29-2020, 10:18 AM
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#20
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Guru
City: San Diego
Vessel Name: Circuit Breaker
Vessel Model: 2021..22' Duffy Cuddy cabin
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 6,691
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ka_sea_ta
When entering the slip I run the boat from cockpit, it was relatively inexpensive to add another control head in the stern. While it could be done with a mechanical dual lever system it's not as easy....
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Damn good point! I plan to do this in the future.
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Done with diesel power boats! Have fallen in love with all electric!
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